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[sunset_drama_king]

Hello everyone, long time since I posted!  I gotta get over here and post more often!!  (although I do lurk quite a bit)

Anyways, after finding out that I was learning such amazing truths via bible-truths and *not-allowed*.com, my mom mailed me a little 5 page article on the Godhead.....for her the teaching that there is ONE GOD and there is nothing but the Father (Christ is basically the physical manifestation of the Father Himself) is the absolute most important thing to understand in doctrine.....well anyways, the article she sent is readable online here:

http://www.apostolic-faith.org/isjesus.html

I grew up under the same teachings since I was very little, and it was always a very fiercely held teaching, above all things this will be the most difficult thing to have my mom reconsider that her apostolic denomination teaches...the article is well written I guess for it's viewpoint, but I'm just wondering if anyone can help me go through it and basically refute it's points?  I can refute much of it given what little knowledge I have so far (example:  the comments about BEING HOLY IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN BEFORE HUMANITY FELL...) 

But I want to mail it back to her with my responses to it,  I think this would help my mom see how absolutely serious I am about learning the truth, and exposing false teachings that come to me, and I'm fully ready to have my response rejected by her (of course I'm hoping it won't be, but it's OK if it is), I just want above all to expose her to the truth by exposing the errors in this article...

I appreciate anyone who helps me with this and anyone who at least reads it and gives me their viewpoint on it.  Ray's excellent paper on the trinity doesn't go much into "oneness" doctrine (or at least the specific argument in this article I'm refuting) or I would just refer her to that alone....which I will do AS WELL   

Thanks and God bless!

- Brett S.

[lilitalienboi16]

I'm no teacher or anything, still learning lots and lots, but...

The guy asked anyone, or rather dared anyone to share scripture that showed that CHRIST is the SON NOW in this time and age, i'm taking that to mean that he believes there is no scripture showing Christ after He was ressurected and seated at the right hand is still the Son but rather now the father or some sort. I could be wrong i skimmed it.

Here some scripture written by the disciples themselves (Which he claims don't exist) showing that Jesus Christ is still the SON in SUBJECT to the Father.

Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

If these scriptures which were written sometime after Christ was ressurected and re-seated into Glory that He and the Father are two different beings, then i don't know what does. Christ is clearly shown to be the SON here long after His ressurection as the disciple makes it Clear He is thanking/blessing the God and FATHER of Jesus Christ (Which would make it clear Christ is the Son.)

Now i could be wrong but thtas how im seeing these scriptures... Christ appears to be the Son of THE ONLY God and Father of our LORD and savior.

God bless,

Alex

[sunset_drama_king]

Alex,

thank you for taking the time to reply and read that small article, that is very helpful information!

Anyone else want to contribute with more scriptural refutations to that article?  I really appreciate anyone's perspective on this and I would value a lot of your opinions on this...I see the quality and truth that is behind many of your posts, I'm excited to get more replies.

Thanks again!

- Brett S.

[Alan]

Brett,

Most of that article is ridiculous!

It's like trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat!

I know you want to show your mother the truth, but I think you will open up a bigger can of worms.

Just study Ray and Mike's sites and let the Lord teach you. One day you can give an answer to your mother without
having to even refer to that heresy of a paper.

Be patient!

In Christ,
Alan

[sunset_drama_king]

Brett,

Most of that article is ridiculous!

It's like trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat!

I know you want to show your mother the truth, but I think you will open up a bigger can of worms.

Just study Ray and Mike's sites and let the Lord teach you. One day you can give an answer to your mother without
having to even refer to that heresy of a paper.

Be patient!

In Christ,
Alan

     I appreciate your enthusiasm about continuing my studies...and I certainly will, but do you have anything specific you can point out concerning that paper's argument and how it smacked you as heretical?    Anything you want to perhaps respond to that the paper claims?

     Thanks Alan.

- Brett S.

[hillsbororiver]

Good morning Brett,

How about printing this article and giving it to your Mom?

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

Joe

[Harryfeat]

Hello Brett,

I think that Joe's advice is excellent.  Have your mother read it carefully because there is a lot more to it than just debunking trinity.


I read the article and it seems to emphasize that Christ ceased being a son at His death on the cross.  I would suggest that you and your mother read John 20. I have always been intrigued by the "touch me not" verse 17.  Note that Christ, after his death on the cross, refers to the Father.  It doesn't appear that the Father Son relationship ceased to exist, at least in Christ's mind.

Anyway that is some more food for thought.  I hope it helps in the search for truth.

feat

[prarrydog]

  Hi Brett,

   I read that paper and it is alot of unscriptural nonsense.  The author appears to be making a claim that Jesus is The Father.  Alex already posted excellent scripture showing that Jesus is not The Father right now so the only questions are...Was He The Father? and will He be The Father?  Here are a couple of scriptures for you to ponder:

  Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ...
  Rev 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness...
  Rev 3:14  These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

  Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God (The Father).  So will He be God The Father in the future?  Let's see:

1Co 15:24  Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
1Co 15:25  For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26  The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27  For he "has put everything under his feet."[3] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
1Co 15:28  When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


Good luck


  

[orion77]

(Luk 12:  But I say to you, Everyone who may confess Me before men, the Son of Man will also confess him before the angels of God.

(Luk 12:9)  But he that denies me before man shall be denied before the angels of God.


(Joh 3:33)  The one receiving His testimony has sealed that God is true.

(Joh 3:34)  For the One whom God sent speaks the Words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.

(Joh 3:35)  The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.

(Joh 3:36)  The one believing into the Son has everlasting life; but the one disobeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.


(Act 7:54)  And hearing these things, they were cut to their hearts and gnashed the teeth on him.

(Act 7:55)  But being full of the Holy Spirit, looking intently into the heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right of God.

(Act 7:56)  And he said, Behold, I see the heavens having been opened, and the Son of man standing at the right of God!

(Act 7:57)  And crying out with a loud voice, they held their ears and rushed on him with one passion.

(Act 7:58)  And throwing him outside the city, they stoned him. And the witnesses put off their garments at the feet of a young man called Saul.

(Act 7:59)  And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


If Christ be no more, what was the purpose of the resurrection.  How can we say, we are crucified with Christ, and it's no longer I who live, but Christ in me that lives.

When Stephen was stoned, which was after Jesus was raised, how can the author of that article explain those verses?

I don't know where some get the idea that Adam and Eve were created perfect.  Where is the scripture to back that up.


Brett, hope those verses are a help to you and your mother.

God bless,

Gary

[sunset_drama_king]

Thank you so much for the replies...I will continue to study these things of course!

- Brett S.

[Sorin]

Jesus is The Father....yeah... and Jesus was praying to himself the whole time too... right?  In other words He was saying , not my will, but mine be done. Oh and when He was dead, who was running and sustaining the universe?


I would ask these sort of questions and watch that she won't be able to answer, and will most likely get really angry, like my folks. lol

Hope this helps,
Sorin

[nightmare sasuke]

  Hi Brett,

   I read that paper and it is alot of unscriptural nonsense.  The author appears to be making a claim that Jesus is The Father.  Alex already posted excellent scripture showing that Jesus is not The Father right now so the only questions are...Was He The Father? and will He be The Father?  Here are a couple of scriptures for you to ponder:

  Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ...
  Rev 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness...
  Rev 3:14  These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

  Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God (The Father).  So will He be God The Father in the future?  Let's see:

1Co 15:24  Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
1Co 15:25  For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26  The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27  For he "has put everything under his feet."[3] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
1Co 15:28  When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


Good luck

If Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, in the sense you interpret the verse, how was he the "first and the last" and the "alpha and the omega?"

Did you ever consider that Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God because the creation of God was done THROUGH Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ is the beginning of the creation of God because it was done through him. That's my opinion, anyway.

[nightmare sasuke]

God speaks of creation and Christ was created because God has no begging and no end but scripture tells us that

If Jesus was with God in the beginning, then how did he have a beginning?

ALL things were made by him;(Christ) and without him was not anything made that was made.

Just to let you know, "by" should be translated "through."

dia - "A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through" (Strong G1223).

[Chris R]

Hello all,

Ray has covered this topic on the web site , lets now move on..

Thanks

Chris R