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Author Topic: why will Satan be punished?  (Read 4458 times)

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david1611kjv

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why will Satan be punished?
« on: April 16, 2011, 03:52:33 PM »

having read Ray's interpretation of who Satan is, although i do believe that he was never a perfect angel fallen from Gods grace like orthodoxy would have us believe, and i do believe that he was created for the very purpose that he serves today, i struggle to conclude as to why God would punish him for doing the job he was created to do??????....i will admit i have not thoroughly read all of the BT site and this may be explained in a part i have yet to read, it's just that i have limited time for study in my busy work schedule....
blessings
David
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mharrell08

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2011, 04:02:22 PM »

For the same reasons we are held accountable: we want to sin. It's in Satan's heart to destroy, no one forces him to have that desire.
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Inthewilderness

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2011, 08:02:58 PM »

But did God put that desire to sin in him?  I really struggle with the responsibility of God for His creation, as a creator, and the consequences for His imperfect creation.  It is a very hard thing to understand.  If God created everything that exists, does that mean he created us, programmed us with the desire to sin?  Or do we desire to sin because we just one day thought of doing so and did it, in essence, creating our own desire to sin?  We can't help but sin, yet we are all punished for it.  To many that sounds like a mean God. 

I like to think it's more like His way of teaching us how good the good is, by going through the bad, which has to involve sinning on my part and on the part of those that cause the bad to happen.  But still, then I think, isn't going through the sin and bad of this life punishment enough?  Of course, Satan isn't necessarily suffering right now and will have to understand the bad for himself before perfected. 

I sure don't have it all figured out, but I wish I did.  I have learned over the years in bits and pieces, here and there.  It's been quite a ride!! :)
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G. Driggs

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2011, 10:57:03 PM »

Hi David,

This short excerpt from one of Ray's papers that might help, and I think it applies to Satan too.

http://www.bible-truths.com/lake15.html

WHO HAS RESISTED GODíS WILL?

So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isnít fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place? The Apostle Paul got the same carnal-minded criticisms of Godís plan:

    "You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulemaóĎresolve, purpose, a deliberate intentioní]?" (Rom. 9:19).

This is an amazing Scripture. This Scripture shows the difference in attitude between those who understand Godís plan and will and those who do not.

After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh up for a specific purpose in Godís plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "Öwho has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "Öwho has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered Godís plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. Godís will, will be done in His time.

So back to Paulís questioners: If God causes us to do what we do, and no one ever has or ever can go against or resist that purpose of God, why does He blame us when we sin? And again, I will let Paul answer, since the question was directed to him. But you know what? Paul does not even deign to answer their question. Thatís right, Paul proposes the question and then does not directly answer it. He considers the very question itself too demeaning, if not blasphemous to answer. Instead He says this:

    "Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [thatís us] say to Him that formed it, [thatís GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).

GOD IS THE POTTER AND WE ARE THE POT

Could anything be plainer? God, the Potter, does not owe an explanation to the pot as to why He made the pot the way He desired! And God desires to make some pots honorable and some pots dishonorable. Why? Because He is a mean and nasty God? No, because He has a plan, a purpose, intentions, to save all humanity in the end. That IS THE "WILL" OF GOD. And if you will continue reading chapters 10 and 11 of Romans, you will plainly see that those who are lost along the way in Godís plan will all be saved in the end.

What is the conclusion of the whole matteróand I mean THE WHOLE MATTER? How good of a Potter is God? Will He have to destroy most of His pots for all eternity? If God is the Potter and we are the pot, how can the pot be responsible for ANYTHING?

This is Godís analogy, not mine. Seriously, can a pot be responsible for anything?

---------------

This is one of the questions I asked God before He led be to Bible Truths website. So I can totally relate to what your asking.

Here is an email reply where Ray teaches about the "punishment" of the wicked.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,733.0.html

Samson did a really good study too about what it means when God "punishes" us, and the benefits of that "punishment".

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11841.0.html

Some key words to search for on this site are "punishment",  "to prune", "cut off" , "touch stone" and "torment". Understanding these might give you a better idea as to what God is really up to when He "punishes" us and Satan.

But did God put that desire to sin in him?

It's not that God puts a "desire" to sin in us and Satan, but it's as mharrell08 says. God created us with an heart too weak to resist sin, and the natural consequence is we desire to sin and do sin whenever we get the chance.

It seems like a combination of God creating our weak heart, and God putting us in the right circumstances that cause us to sin. I mean all God had to do was create us with an weak heart, and create the circumstances and we would do what comes natural to us, and that is to sin.

Certainly all is of God, and it seems His intention was for us to sin, and go against His will as Ray has stated and proved with Scriptures. That does not make God evil because of the intent of His heart is for good. When we do evil it's not for good, but it makes us feel good and it satisfies our selfish and carnal  minds. When God uses evil it is for our ultimate good.

I believe He has every right to make us subject to our weakness, to fulfill His greater goal of having mercy on us all and of saving us all. Then will we have a good working knowledge of good and evil just like God because we will finally be in His image.

If God created everything that exists, does that mean he created us, programmed us with the desire to sin?  

Probably more like He programmed us with a weak heart. Big difference between being programmed with a weak heart and being programmed with a desire to sin. The desire to sin is an RESULT of an weak heart.

Notice the difference in renderings from the kJV and the JPS of Jer 17:9.

KJV
Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:H605 who can know it?

JPS
Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it?

The KJV makes it sound like God created us with an wicked heart. Whereas the JPS rightly shows God created us with an very weak heart.

The term "desperately wicked"  in the KJV comes from the Hebrew 'ânash, and is defined by Strong's as:

H605
אנשׁ
'ânash
aw-nash'
A primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy: - desperate (-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.

So you can see the JPS has it right using "exceeding weak" rather then the KJV which uses "desperately wicked".

Hope I've made sense, and I hope it helps.

G.Driggs

p.s. Can anyone tell me why part of the definition of "anash" from Strong's has this in parentheses?
(-ly wicked) Is this one of them biases of Dr. Strong?




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DougE6

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 12:23:58 AM »

Quote
JPS
Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it?

The KJV makes it sound like God created us with an wicked heart. Whereas the JPS rightly shows God created us with an very weak heart.

The term "desperately wicked"  in the KJV comes from the Hebrew 'ânash, and is defined by Strong's as:

H605
אנשׁ
'ânash
aw-nash'
A primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy: - desperate (-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.

So you can see the JPS has it right using "exceeding weak" rather then the KJV which uses "desperately wicked".

Hope I've made sense, and I hope it helps

Nicely done!
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Dawidos

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 06:58:33 AM »

Quote
Certainly all is of God, and it seems His intention was for us to sin, and go against His will as Ray has stated and proved with Scriptures. That does not make God evil because of the intent of His heart is for good. When we do evil it's not for good, but it makes us feel good and it satisfies our selfish and carnal  minds. When God uses evil it is for our ultimate good.

I'm always wondering if a man can do evil for ultimate good. In theory, let's imagine there is a very bad person, whose every day of life means that many people suffer and are killed. I decide myself to kill that man to save countless lifes. My motive is not revenge, because this extremely wicked human being has not done anything personally against me (for example, he hasn't do harm to my relatives). So my intention is noble, like God's is and will bring ultimate good. Moreover, killing this man will not gain me any benefits, quite the opposite, I may be even sentenced to death penalty. The final question is if I'm evil because of this act and I have done some kind of evil. In God's plan the ends justify the means, so could I incorporate this same method in my life?   
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david1611kjv

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 07:00:37 AM »

WOW thanks for the excellent response mr.D it has cleared up most of my query(if thats how you spell such,lol?), much appreciated my man....God bless you and yours
David
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 04:43:29 PM »

The Universe works from the TOP down.  It's not a democracy...it's not egalitarian.  God is God, and nobody else is.  This is HIS work.

I am slow to make the assumption that anything in His world--from His High Viewpoint--is "imperfect".  Everything (including Satan) is acting in exactly the way He knew it would WHEN HE MADE IT. 

I also am slow to consider the chastening/judgement/redemption that God does on ALL His creatures (including Satan) as "punishment".  God is NOT up in Heaven waiting for me (or Satan) to foul up so He can punish us later.  God is either chastening/judging/redeeming us now, or He is waiting for another time to raise us up to chasten/judge/redeem us then, at HIS pleasure and to HIS glory.  Thankfully, it is also for OUR (mine and Satan's) great benefit, whether we see it now or not.

To me, we either see God working IN EVERTHING, or we are disobedient/lawless to that.  Satan is disobedient/lawless to that, and is spreading that lie to his ministers who are decieving the flock--except for the ones God is drawing out, who will have thier eyes opened, knowing Good and Evil, becoming like "Us", "being conformed into the Image of His Son" when they will serve the Lord by reigning with Him, ministering RIGHTEOUS and loving chastening/judgement/redemption to those whom God has reserved to THOSE judgements--including Satan who, having served his purpose in GOD'S purpose, will himself be chastened/judged/redeemed to the Glory of the Father.       
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

G. Driggs

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 04:56:57 PM »

Quote
Certainly all is of God, and it seems His intention was for us to sin, and go against His will as Ray has stated and proved with Scriptures. That does not make God evil because of the intent of His heart is for good. When we do evil it's not for good, but it makes us feel good and it satisfies our selfish and carnal  minds. When God uses evil it is for our ultimate good.

I'm always wondering if a man can do evil for ultimate good. In theory, let's imagine there is a very bad person, whose every day of life means that many people suffer and are killed. I decide myself to kill that man to save countless lifes. My motive is not revenge, because this extremely wicked human being has not done anything personally against me (for example, he hasn't do harm to my relatives). So my intention is noble, like God's is and will bring ultimate good. Moreover, killing this man will not gain me any benefits, quite the opposite, I may be even sentenced to death penalty. The final question is if I'm evil because of this act and I have done some kind of evil. In God's plan the ends justify the means, so could I incorporate this same method in my life?   

Your question reminded me of an email response from Ray on this very subject. It is very short and to the point.

http://www.bible-truths.com/email2.htm

There are MANY things that God does that we as mortals are  NOT TO IMITATE! God "makes war in righteousness"--we cannot. God KILLS and brings back to life again--we cannot.

G.Driggs

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Samson

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 10:34:41 AM »

Quote
Certainly all is of God, and it seems His intention was for us to sin, and go against His will as Ray has stated and proved with Scriptures. That does not make God evil because of the intent of His heart is for good. When we do evil it's not for good, but it makes us feel good and it satisfies our selfish and carnal  minds. When God uses evil it is for our ultimate good.

I'm always wondering if a man can do evil for ultimate good. In theory, let's imagine there is a very bad person, whose every day of life means that many people suffer and are killed. I decide myself to kill that man to save countless lifes. My motive is not revenge, because this extremely wicked human being has not done anything personally against me (for example, he hasn't do harm to my relatives). So my intention is noble, like God's is and will bring ultimate good. Moreover, killing this man will not gain me any benefits, quite the opposite, I may be even sentenced to death penalty. The final question is if I'm evil because of this act and I have done some kind of evil. In God's plan the ends justify the means, so could I incorporate this same method in my life?   


Dawidos,

Your above response indicates that You are a thinking Man. You propose in Your above scenario regarding this Man's intention, no revenge involved, no concern about receiving the death penalty and the motive towards bringing an eventual good as the result of an evil act. Your Post is very well thought out, but lacks one crucial consideration. THIS MAN PORTRAYED ABOVE DOESN'T KNOW THE END OF ANY MATTER OR CANNOT CONTROL THE OUTCOME OF ANY CHOICE HE MAKES. So, even if His motives are good in His attempt to help many people, THIS MAN has no way of being certain He will attain the results exactly the way He intends, Hence the Scripture: " Vengeance is Mine, says The Lord, I will repay."

This always happens when Man declares War against each other, they don't just Kill the "Bad" Guy as their motive might have desired, they end up killing allot of innocents and they use the same rationale: " The End justifies the means." People tend to justify every wicked or evil act committed, We hear about this in Our present Age, probably every day.

                              Kind Regards, Samson.
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Joel

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 11:55:48 AM »

Hi Dawidos;
I can imagine some very bad people that have gone through our court system, been found guilty, and received the death penalty.
God provided for punishments according to his law, and was very specific as to the rules to be followed. Have they been carried out perfectally? Jesus showed how corrupted that people had become when he came, remember the woman, AND MAN caught in the act of adultery? And Jesus of course died unjustly by their law.
Every one including Satan will get what is coming to them, and I am thankfull that God is perfect, especially in his judgements. :)
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Arion

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 12:55:33 PM »

Your question reminded me of an email response from Ray on this very subject. It is very short and to the point.

There are MANY things that God does that we as mortals are  NOT TO IMITATE! God "makes war in righteousness"--we cannot. God KILLS and brings back to life again--we cannot.

G.Driggs



And I would add that HE is GOD and we are not!!  When we know all the God knows only then can we make such judgements.
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GaryK

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 01:30:49 PM »

The Universe works from the TOP down.  It's not a democracy...it's not egalitarian.  God is God, and nobody else is.  This is HIS work.

I am slow to make the assumption that anything in His world--from His High Viewpoint--is "imperfect".  Everything (including Satan) is acting in exactly the way He knew it would WHEN HE MADE IT. 

I also am slow to consider the chastening/judgement/redemption that God does on ALL His creatures (including Satan) as "punishment".  God is NOT up in Heaven waiting for me (or Satan) to foul up so He can punish us later.  God is either chastening/judging/redeeming us now, or He is waiting for another time to raise us up to chasten/judge/redeem us then, at HIS pleasure and to HIS glory.  Thankfully, it is also for OUR (mine and Satan's) great benefit, whether we see it now or not.

To me, we either see God working IN EVERTHING, or we are disobedient/lawless to that.  Satan is disobedient/lawless to that, and is spreading that lie to his ministers who are decieving the flock--except for the ones God is drawing out, who will have thier eyes opened, knowing Good and Evil, becoming like "Us", "being conformed into the Image of His Son" when they will serve the Lord by reigning with Him, ministering RIGHTEOUS and loving chastening/judgement/redemption to those whom God has reserved to THOSE judgements--including Satan who, having served his purpose in GOD'S purpose, will himself be chastened/judged/redeemed to the Glory of the Father.       

Well said Dave.



Agreed John, well said Dave.

As you say Dave, "becoming".   This "seeing God working in EVERYTHING" is a growth process, not an overnight realization, or it seems to me.   One reads the words both from scripture and Ray's teaching and then the process begins.  And what a process it is.  No small part: realizing there is absolutely NO free-will.  And that, for some (me), is a bumpy road where it seems spiritual warfare is intense for long periods of time, on many occasions, where the idol of total control is razed to powder.   For others it may be simple.  But it's all God, no matter what.   We each have our race, we each have our course, all owned by God.

I like to think of it as a huge leap in freedom, worth the struggles.

gk
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mmijares

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Re: why will Satan be punished?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2011, 11:32:21 PM »

Quote
Certainly all is of God, and it seems His intention was for us to sin, and go against His will as Ray has stated and proved with Scriptures. That does not make God evil because of the intent of His heart is for good. When we do evil it's not for good, but it makes us feel good and it satisfies our selfish and carnal  minds. When God uses evil it is for our ultimate good.

I'm always wondering if a man can do evil for ultimate good. In theory, let's imagine there is a very bad person, whose every day of life means that many people suffer and are killed. I decide myself to kill that man to save countless lifes. My motive is not revenge, because this extremely wicked human being has not done anything personally against me (for example, he hasn't do harm to my relatives). So my intention is noble, like God's is and will bring ultimate good. Moreover, killing this man will not gain me any benefits, quite the opposite, I may be even sentenced to death penalty. The final question is if I'm evil because of this act and I have done some kind of evil. In God's plan the ends justify the means, so could I incorporate this same method in my life?   


Dawidos,

Your above response indicates that You are a thinking Man. You propose in Your above scenario regarding this Man's intention, no revenge involved, no concern about receiving the death penalty and the motive towards bringing an eventual good as the result of an evil act. Your Post is very well thought out, but lacks one crucial consideration. THIS MAN PORTRAYED ABOVE DOESN'T KNOW THE END OF ANY MATTER OR CANNOT CONTROL THE OUTCOME OF ANY CHOICE HE MAKES. So, even if His motives are good in His attempt to help many people, THIS MAN has no way of being certain He will attain the results exactly the way He intends, Hence the Scripture: " Vengeance is Mine, says The Lord, I will repay."

This always happens when Man declares War against each other, they don't just Kill the "Bad" Guy as their motive might have desired, they end up killing allot of innocents and they use the same rationale: " The End justifies the means." People tend to justify every wicked or evil act committed, We hear about this in Our present Age, probably every day.

                              Kind Regards, Samson.

True indeed.  Reminds me of the movie "The Butterfly Effect".
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