what is the best scriptural point/question to put to a calvinist?

[david1611kjv]

a poor die hard calvinist friend of mine who is very stubborn has been asking me about stuff, he knows the bible better than me and has an excuse for everything, surely the truth can silence his toungue for just a moment.....any suggestions?

[mharrell08]

a poor die hard calvinist friend of mine who is very stubborn has been asking me about stuff, he knows the bible better than me and has an excuse for everything, surely the truth can silence his toungue for just a moment.....any suggestions?

Leave him alone: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"

as well as: Prov 26:4-5  Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

After you do this: 2 Tim 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

You'll know when to apply the part of that proverb when it is needed in dealing with your friend.



Hope this helps,

Marques

[JohnMichael]

Marques hit the nail on the head, but I just wanted to add one point:

Jesus is the Savior of all mankind, and He will do it without anyone's help. We're just vessels. We're not going to save or convince anyone. The Father has to draw/drag them first, and until He makes them ready to receive the Truth, they won't. It's a hard lesson to learn, being that one is excited about what they're learning of the Truth, but God knows what He's doing.

[david1611kjv]

good quotes mharrel, very good indeed!...i keep telling myself to stay away from such debate, but im like a moth to a flame sometimes, when i see something as deeply saddening as a fully convinced calvinist i think i can do something, but it soon becomes apparent that i am still a babe and i end up getting entangled in their vain deceit...it just makes me mad, i know what its like to believe this and the pain it caused me was unbearable..........i think it is to be likened to a mental illness to be honest, and have you ever tried talking to a crazy person??i have and it was very similar..............hmmmmmmmm i stand corrected
thanx guys
David

[Craig]

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Craig

[eskimojerry]

It is soooo sad! But, you have one friend! As Elijah was satisfied staying in the wilderness,...that is how it will be. Only after the Father forces you out of wherever you are,...you will want to stay there. Don't be discouraged. God is in control of your life. There will be no answer that you can give to your family and friends...cause...any answer will not be sufficient for them...be strong...the Lord will take you out of it and give you contention! Don't ever give up. Even if it feels like if you are going nowhere and not doing anything good, the good Lord who started this...will see it through. Often, the only thing we have towards our loved one's is prayer. Often seems minuscule, but great rewards follow it, may seem far behind,...keep fighting the good fight and they will catch up .

[Duane]

Just went to another funeral of an old friend and heard the story about everybody in heaven welcoming them home---blah, blah and the minister read right over the verse that told otherwise and didn't see what he was reading with his blind eyes!  Then he had everyone in heaven and then he Lord returning for those in the grave to "meet Him in the air".  I hope there was no mid-air collisions with people meeting themselves half way!  Isn't it wonderful to know the truth?  If it wasn't for this web-site, I would be one of them! 
Thank you L. Ray Smith and all the moderators that helped guide me as I started out with many questions.  I feel so lucky and priviledged---and I gained a new family to boot!

[Stacey]

a poor die hard calvinist friend of mine who is very stubborn has been asking me about stuff, he knows the bible better than me and has an excuse for everything, surely the truth can silence his toungue for just a moment.....any suggestions?

Marques is right. "If" you can't hold your tongue, be careful what you say. For me, If I have to say anything to defend where I stand with God it's this. God is Love and Love never fails. 

[Drew]

Stacey,

I was one; I read the two volumes of Calvins Institutes, had discussions with other Calvinists about how great it was to be one of the chosen by the mercy of God, etc. For me I just see it as one of those stepping stones that our Lord places for us. Looking from my changed point of view, by His Mercy, the main thing, in my opinion, that Calvinists fail to see is that God truly is Love and therefore their accostic? TULIP should be, at the very most TUIP. Limited atonement just ain't so. Calvinists aren't a lost cause, they're just deluded like we were and are until we are healed of blindness. Praise Him.

Drew

[Joel]

Jesus died to save the Calvinist too.

[DougE6]

 Calvinists are strong believers in Gods total sovereignity.  Their greatest mistake is they believe in the "limited atonement" that Jesus died only FOR SOME, only the "Elect"  they totally understand that everyone Jesus died for has to become saved, and they get around this by saying that Jesus did not die fro everyone!  Anyone, here is an interesting blog populated mainly by calvinists. I was excited to read that some tiny inklings of light are starting to dawn.  maybe in a few years, there will be a lot more who accept the real truths of God.

     http://newleaven.com/2011/04/29/meet-a-calvinist-who-is-also-universalist/#comment-36200

[G. Driggs]

Calvinism is kinda confusing. They claim to believe in the total sovereignty of God, yet they do not believe He is powerful enough to actually save all mankind.

It really seems they believe in the sovereignty of God AND free will only when it suits them. Here is a quote from John Calvin himself.

This liberty is compatible with our being depraved, the servants of sin, able to do nothing but sin. In this way, then, man is said to have free will, not because he has a free choice of good and evil, but because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title? An admirable freedom! That man is not forced to be the servant of sin, while he is, however, ethelodoulos (a voluntary slave); his will being bound by the fetters of sin. – Institutes of Christian Religion, 1:228-29 (2.2.6-7)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it really sounds like Calvin is saying we have free will to do evil, but no free will to do good. I can't help but notice a lot of contradictions when reading some of what Mr. Calvin has to say, but I shouldn't be surprised.

I was trying to find out where Ray got this idea of John Calvin and Calvinism, which is what caused me (along with this thread) to read up on what Mr. Calvin had to say.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html

'FREE WILL' IS AN OXYMORON . . . . . . Biblestudy Jan. 2007


Paul said when I would do good, evil is there.  Where is the free will?  Why didn't Paul just free will himself out of all this stuff?  He said what is going to save one from this destruction of my own carnal mind and ways, what?  He said grace!  I thank God through Jesus  Christ that there is a power strong enough to do in me, what I can't free will myself to do.  
Why can't theologians see that?  They despise the Word of God.  What was Paul's ministry before Christ came into his life?  DUNG.   He summarized his whole ministry - dung.  Is that good?  Why is it if we have free will it's of no value until we come to Christ?  
Well of course the Calvinists teach that's the way it is.  They say you don't have free will until you come to Christ and then you have free will.  Well here is the truth in one verse.

Phi 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

People like to quote that and say, 'you got to do it yourself, it's your own free will.'  No no no no no.  The reason you do it with fear and trembling is the next verse.

Phi 2:13  For(because) it is God which works in you BOTH(2 things) to will and to do of His good pleasure.

That's God, not your free will!  God does that!  
We throw out God and we take on ourselves this little demigod called free will.  Therefore we despise the sovereignty of God.  We despise the Word of God and you are not going to grow spiritually.  You got to know who and what God is in relationship to who and what you are, or you will never grow spiritually.  
-----------------------------------

I've also read where Calvin has said that Adam had free will but lost it after disobeying God. Reading and trying to understand John Calvin's stance on free will gives me a headache. It's hard to make heads or tails of it all. I just thank God for people like Ray Smith and what God has shown me through him.

G.Driggs

[dave]

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Craig

A man needs to keep his mouth shut a good part of the time then, cause the world has proved to me full of idiots!

[CEO]

Hi

Calvinists seem to believe God loves only the few, namely the calvinists.  Let us prove to them that God loves eveyone. 

Jn 3:16 is the obvious  one : 'God so loves the world (inhabited earth )'... sounds like everyone to me.

God teaches us to love our enemy, Lk 6:35: 'But love your enemy, do good to them', and who is God's enemy? Carnal (unsaved) man is enmity to God..  God loves unsaved Man!!!

So God  loves us all not just the exclusionary prideful calvinists.

Askseeknock
Charles O