> General Discussions
Ray's response about Enoch
Revilonivek:
--- Quote from: Kat on April 27, 2011, 04:59:28 PM ---
Hi Denise,
--- Quote ---esword says it mainly means sky, God's abode, and air. and what's interesting is that they used the same greek word ouranos because it is also the name of the greek God of the sky.
--- End quote ---
Heaven can mean sky, air or God's abode, it depends on the context of what is being spoken of. But the kingdom of heaven/God where He has His abode is not a place off some where, it is not a location.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
When Jesus stated "no one has ascended up to heaven" (John 3:13), that was true because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1Co 15:50). I believe the Enoch was still flesh and blood when he was taken up.
Here are a few places where Ray mentions this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4138.0.html -----------
The "Kingdom of God" also known as the "Kingdom of the heavenS," is God's domain, where He resides. To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom. At present we are merely begotten, awaiting a new birth into His Kingdom. This Kingdom has no end after the physical has passed away. Etc.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html -------------------------------------
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen. 1;1).
We all know what the earth is. The heavens, however, is a different matter. The physical heaven is where we find the moon, sun, and stars. But God’s domain is a spiritual heaven.
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world [Gk: ‘age’], against spiritual [Gk: ‘spiritual powers of, or spiritual hosts of, or spiritual forces of’] wickedness in high places [Gk: ‘heavenly places’]” (Eph. 6:12).
So God created the plural “heavens” “in the beginning.” And Paul tells us that there are “principalities and powers” in these “heavenly places” or “celestials” as it is in the Greek. And that these “principalities and powers” are powers, hosts, or forces that are “wicked!”
“For by Him [Jesus] were all things created that are in the heaven [Gk: ‘heavens”—it is plural in the Greek as it is in the Hebrew], and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers ALL things were created by Him, and for Him” (Col. 1:16).
“Principalities and powers” are part of the “all” which Jesus created “in the beginning,” at the beginning of creation. And these “principalities and powers” are “wicked” forces, which we wrestle against. These powers are under authority.
v
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No, Jesus does not live far far away on the other side of the universe in a place called heaven. Heaven is not a place; heaven is the realm of spirit. Jesus does not sleep in heaven. Jesus does not live in a physical heaven. Jesus will not live in a physical body full of holes, for the rest of eternity either. It is impossible to even think about these important issues of life with the mentality of Christian doctrines. Jesus Christ is “spirit”: “Now the Lord is that SPIRIT…” (II Cor. 3:17).
http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#babel ----------------------
Nimrod did not think that he could really build a tower that would go to heaven, but rather to reach into the heavens as a tall tree or mountain.
Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock.
God's heaven is a higher spiritual realm of life and existence, not a geographical location in outer space.
Hope that helps a little.
Ray
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
The reason I bought that up is because scriptures show that some people in the bible believed God lives in the sky, space (heaven). I was only pointing out that ouranos mainly mean the physical sky or space. So it explains why people, unconverted at the time, believed God lives in the literal sky or space. (Heaven) but Jesus pointed out clearly that the kingdom of God is a whole different thing. It represent our spiritual perfectness and we cannot enter spiritual perfectness unless we possess the spirit of perfectness. The kingdom of God is not th same as Heaven in the bible as people say. that is why people thought heaven is a physical location.
So when Jesus stated "no one has ascended up to heaven" (John 3:13) the word behind heaven in this scripture is ouranos.
He meant to say no one has literally ascended to the skies(heaven) except for him. is what I was simply pointing out..
Denise
daywalker:
--- Quote from: Revilonivek on April 28, 2011, 01:58:47 PM ---
--- Quote from: daywalker on April 27, 2011, 06:31:01 PM ---
Hebrews 9:27... Ezekiel 18:4,20... Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
We may never know exactly what happened to Enoch, but either (1) he eventually died or (2) all these above verses are lies which would therefore mean the bible is not God's Word and we are all wasting our time here, and in the words of Isaiah:
"Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." Isaiah 22:13
or something...
Daywalker 8)
--- End quote ---
Daywalker-
Yes you are right- The verses did not SAY that Enoch went to heaven. It just plainly says he was NOT FOUND, for God TOOK HIM. Just didn't say where God took him to.
So maybe God just took him somewhere else so he can protect Enoch's pure heart. That scripture seems almost incomplete but it is what it says...I suppose. It was nagging at me because it said, God translated Enoch so he will not see death. Maybe they meant to say, as we are spiritually dead and through Jesus, we are made alive.
so maybe Enoch was already pure of heart, and God wanted to protect his purity so HE took Enoch away from his family and friends and life, so it stays pure and not experience spiritual death?
just a thought?
what do you think?
Denise
--- End quote ---
I highly doubt that, though I'm sure Enoch was much more righteous than those around him. I think the answer is simply Enoch's enemies wanted to kill him, so God moved him somewhere else to save him at that time.
Here's something interesting I read a few weeks back that I don't recall Ray or anyone discussing. In 1 Kings chapter 18, God tells Elijah to go see King Ahab (who had been searching for Elijah for some time). Obadiah finds Elijah, who tells him to go tell the King that he is coming to visit him. Check out Obadiah's response to Elijah:
Verse 7 As Obadiah was walking along, Elijah met him. Obadiah recognized him, bowed down to the ground, and said, “Is it really you, my lord Elijah?”
8 “Yes,” he replied. “Go tell your master, ‘Elijah is here.’”
9 “What have I done wrong,” asked Obadiah, “that you are handing your servant over to Ahab to be put to death?
10 As surely as the LORD your God lives, there is not a nation or kingdom where my master has not sent someone to look for you. And whenever a nation or kingdom claimed you were not there, he made them swear they could not find you.
11 But now you tell me to go to my master and say, ‘Elijah is here.’
12 I don’t know where the Spirit of the LORD may carry you when I leave you. If I go and tell Ahab and he doesn’t find you, he will kill me. Yet I your servant have worshiped the LORD since my youth.
13 Haven’t you heard, my lord, what I did while Jezebel was killing the prophets of the LORD? I hid a hundred of the LORD’s prophets in two caves, fifty in each, and supplied them with food and water.
14 And now you tell me to go to my master and say, ‘Elijah is here.’ He will kill me!”
Later in 2 Kings chapter 2, we read that Elijah was "taken up" by God; but apparently this wasn't the first time seeing that Obadiah was scared that God's Spirit might take Elijah away somewhere if he told King Ahab that he'd found him! Obadiah would've been accused of lying to the King, a crime worthy of death! So, Elijah assures Obadiah that he will be visiting the King so he has nothing to worry about (verse 15). This, to me, is clear evidence to support that God took Elijah and Enoch somewhere else on Earth, as opposed to Heaven as Christendom insists.
Hope this helps.
Daywalker 8)
dave:
Excellent! :) Daywalker!
daywalker:
--- Quote from: Abednego on April 28, 2011, 06:34:36 PM ---Great point Daywalker. When it comes to the OT it's probably safe to say that I've spent more time on Elijah, Enoch, and Elisha than anywhere else. I never noticed that. Testimony to the carnal mind doing it's thing I'd venture to say.
--- End quote ---
Yep, yep, it's just as Ray says (paraphrasing) when something is true, you just keep finding more and more proof that it's true; especially when we "pay attention to all the words!" :D ;)
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