> General Discussions
Ray's response about Enoch
Revilonivek:
The reason I am confused is because the definition of heaven is not what you think it is.
that's why i asked about enoch..
You're right they didn't really say what really happened to him but that he was taken.
I know John 3:13 says no one has ascended to heaven except for the Son of Man.
But, Let me explain what I understand so far about the Hebrew word Shamayim and Greek word Ouranos regarding the definition of heaven.
There are many scriptures but I’ll just post some, Its already long as it is here. You can look it up on esword for more scriptures.
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air (shamayim), and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” - Genesis 1:26
The Hebrew word for air in this passage is: Shamayim, aka Heaven.
In The New Testament we find the word Ouranos for sky. This is interesting because Ouranos is actually the name of the Greek God of the Sky.
Okay here’s the rest:
Genesis 1:8 (King James Version)
8And God called the firmament Heaven(shamayim). And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Job 9:8 (King James Version)
8Which alone spreadeth out the heavens(shamayim), and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Psalm 19:1
1The heavens(shamayim) declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork
Psalm 102:25 (King James Version)
25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens(shamayim) are the work of thy hands.
Isaiah 45:12 (King James Version)
12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens,(shamayim) and all their host have I commanded.
Isaiah 48:13 (King James Version)
13Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens(shamayim): when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Genesis 1:20 (King James Version)
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven(shamayim).
Jeremiah 4:25 (King James Version)
25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens(shamayim) were fled.
2 Kings 2:11 (King James Version)
11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven(shamayim).
Okay lets focus on Ouranos
Matthew 6:26 (King James Version)
26Behold the fowls of the air(ouranos): for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Acts 1:10-11 (King James Version)
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven(ouranos) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven(ouranos)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven(ouranos), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven(ouranos).
Acts 2:34 (King James Version)
34For David is not ascended into the heavens(ouranos): but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 7:49 (King James Version)
49Heaven(ouranos) is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Matthew 8:20 (King James Version)
20And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air(ouranos) have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Acts 10:12 (King James Version)
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air(ouranos).
Matthew 24:29-31 (King James Version)
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven(ouranos), and the powers of the heavens(ouranos) shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven(ouranos): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven(ouranos) with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven(ouranos) to the other.
Revelation 4 (King James Version)
Revelation 4
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven(ouranos): and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven(ouranos), and one sat on the throne.
John 3:13 (King James Version)
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven (ouranos), but he that came down from heaven (ouranos), even the Son of man which is in heaven(ouranos).
So does that mean the Hebrew word "shamayim" and the Greek word "ouranos" both mean the same thing, either it can be "the sky" or the "abode of God
See where I'm coming from?
dave:
H8064 Heaven shâmayim shâmeh The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty[/; the sky (as aloft;
G3772 Heaven ouranos From G3735 (through the idea of elevation); From G3735 oros Probably a from an obsolete word ὄρω orō (to rise or “rear”;
Either way I reason that it is nor a specific physical location, it means to be "lofty, elevated."
Revilonivek:
--- Quote from: micah7:9 on April 26, 2011, 11:28:29 PM ---H8064 Heaven shâmayim shâmeh The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty[/; the sky (as aloft;
G3772 Heaven ouranos From G3735 (through the idea of elevation); From G3735 oros Probably a from an obsolete word ὄρω orō (to rise or “rear”;
Either way I reason that it is nor a specific physical location, it means to be "lofty, elevated."
--- End quote ---
Hey there,
esword says it mainly means sky, God's abode, and air. and what's interesting is that they used the same greek word ouranos because it is also the name of the greek God of the sky.
Denise
Dave in Tenn:
Denise, what we are saying is this: If Enoch did not (eventually) die, then what happened to him? It's theologians (some, at any rate) that postulate that he was 'translated into heaven' without having died. Niether we nor the scripture are saying that. We're saying--and going back to your original question--Ray is saying that 'yes, Enoch died'--eventually, some unknown time and place after being 'removed' so that he did not see death at the time he was translated. If that's what you understood Ray to say, you are correct.
What we're arguing against is a 'theory' of what happened to Enoch if he had NEVER died, as some believe. What are the 'alternatives' to Enoch being 'in the grave'? All the 'alternatives' either contradict scripture or are simply not IN scripture and too fanciful to believe.
The definition of heaven is something I'll leave to Ray and to those members who are better at locating relevant teaching. It's properly not really a part of a discussion about Enoch, since it's not mentioned in the SCRIPTURAL accounts--only in theological explanations.
I hope that helps.
Marky Mark:
--- Quote ---The definition of heaven is something I'll leave to Ray
--- End quote ---
And Scripture...
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
SEA, EARTH, AND HEAVEN
There are three realms spoken of in Revelation: sea, earth, and heaven:
"And the angel which I saw stand upon the SEA and upon the EARTH lifted up his hand to HEAVEN, and swore by Him that lives for ever and ever, [for the eons of the eons], who created HEAVEN, and the things that therein are, and the EARTH, and the things that therein are, and the SEA, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer [no longer a time of delay]" (Rev. 10:5-6).
The angels [messengers] of God communicate things from heaven to both the earth and the sea:
"And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the ANGEL which stands upon the sea and upon the earth" (Rev. 10:8).
There are three realms of humanity and three realms of spiritual understanding. The lowest of all is the sea. Those with at least some spiritual understanding are those who dwell in the earth. And those who have the very mind of Christ are those who dwell in heaven. ALL REALMS will give honor and glory to God:
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, [need I explain that ‘fish’ do not have the mental capacity to comprehend what is being taught here—these are MEN, MANKIND, HUMANITY] and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and upon the Lamb for the eons of the eons" (Rev. 5:13).
Is this not saying the identical thing that Paul teaches in Phil. 2:10-11:
"That at the name of Jesus every knee should BOW, of things [them] in heaven, and things [them] in earth, and things [them] under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
More proof:
"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and [inhabitants] of the sea! …" (Rev. 12:12).
Next notice that:
"And when the dragon saw that he was cast into the earth , he persecuted the WOMAN [the Church] which brought forth the man child [the manifest sons of God]" (Rev. 12:13).
Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can’t get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.
The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now ‘spiritually-minded;’ dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth.
Peace...Mark
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version