spiritual bodies

[dave]

This verse is the only time we find "spiritual body" in the Word of God. (1 Cor.15:44) And we find that it is single, not plural as bodies. Still I would venture to say that most all ministers talk about man having or will have spiritual bodies in the hearafter or when we die. There is also much talk of "spiritual beings"  definition of being a : the quality or state of having existence b (1) : something conceivable as existing (2) : something that actually exists....  Again there is no "spiritual being(s)" in the Bible, or even the word "being" used in the sense of (2) : something that actually exists 
1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
BODY G4983  sōma  the body (as a sound whole) from  G4982 sōzō From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
This tells me that a body is sound..[.sound].. from dictionary (a : free from injury or disease b : free from flaw, defect, or decay) examples.....a building of sound construction ........The bridge is structurally sound.
I have accepted the teaching that we will have spiritual bodies at the resurrection.  Also I have always heard the phrase "spiritually dead"  and "spiritually alive"
as well as "alive in the spirit," and again I cannot find that teaching information in the Word of God. I reason that if there were "spiritual bodies" "spiritually dead" "spiritually alive" "die spiritually" that Paul would have taken the time to inform us of these sensations or phases, or changes.
The verse in ICor.15:44 reads that mankind is sown(or began) a natural(sensitive that is, animate)
it is raised(aroused or awaken from sleep) spiritual(non-carnal) and we know from 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, .....this verse tells me that when the natural body(first adam) will be raised a spiritual body(second adam
This all makes me reason and except that we do not recieve spiritual bodies when we die or when resurrected, that there is no  such thing as spiritually dead, except in christian religion teaching. This is what  my Bible reads, Eph 4:4  one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling; 
2Ti 2:11  Faithful is the saying: For if we died with him, we shall also live with him:
I am open for instruction and reproof.

[G. Driggs]

Also I have always heard the phrase "spiritually dead"  and "spiritually alive"
as well as "alive in the spirit," and again I cannot find that teaching information in the Word of God. I reason that if there were "spiritual bodies" "spiritually dead" "spiritually alive" "die spiritually" that Paul would have taken the time to inform us of these sensations or phases, or changes.

True we can't find the specific phrase "spiritually dead", but we can know this is what Paul is referring to when he says....

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is deathG2288; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is deathG2288; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

"Death" can be used either literally or figuratively (spiritually).

The parable of the Prodigal Son is a good example of "death" being used figuratively.

Luk 15:21  And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luk 15:22  But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luk 15:23  And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24  For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Here is another where Jesus uses "death" figuratively.

Mat 8:21  And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

How can literally dead people bury other literally dead people? I can't imagine what else Jesus would be saying except let spiritually (figuratively) dead people bury literally dead people. Know what I mean? 

To me if I'm living an sinful carnal life style then I'm spiritually dead without Christ. But if sin no longer has dominion over me then I'm spiritually alive in and through Christ, because Christ is "the way, the truth, and the life" (Joh 14:6).

Rom 6:13  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Hope I made sense, if not then here are a few short excerpts where Ray talks about the "spiritually dead" that should help.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html

GREATER WORKS

But just like when God said to Israel, I'm choosing you, it was a shadow.  Now Christ came and we say, at last now we have the real thing.  That was right, He was the real thing.  He was the Seed! 

But part of this gospel involves judging, right.  Peter said it involves judging the quick and the dead.  Did Jesus Christ judge the quick and the dead when He was here?  Some of this remains and has yet to a fulfillment and it has to.  I will tell you why it has to.  Jesus Christ told His disciples...

John 14:12  Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father.

He healed the sick, gave vision to the blind, caused the lame to walk, caused the dead to live...  you're going to do greater things than that.  Oh really?  And what might that be Lord? 

I've had people ask me numerous times, 'Ray can you walk on water, have you raised the dead, have you...?'  As a matter of fact I have.  Which is greater, to raise somebody back to physical life, so that they can physically die again or to raise someone who is spiritually dead to spiritual life?  God is doing greater things through the called, chosen, Elect few of His church, than He did in His own ministry, when He fed 5000, walked on the water, calmed the storm, healed the sick and raised the dead.  He said we would do... "greater things," they are greater.  They are not greater if you've got a carnal mind, they are not greater then, it sounds like foolishness.  That's what it will sound like to you, unless you have the spiritual mind to see it.
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http://www.bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm


    "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened, and another book was opened which is the books of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS" (Rev. 20:12).

    "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).

When the "dead... stand," we are being presented with a resurrection from the dead. For this is exactly what resurrection means (anastasis in Greek means, "to stand up again"--See Strong's #386 translated 'resurrection'). It is in resurrection that "the dead... stand" before God. And yes, since we know Revelation is a book of spiritual symbols, we would be correct in stating that it is "the SPIRITUALLY dead" who are standing before God. Aspects of this Judgment:

    [1] "the dead, small and great stand [resurrected] before God"

    [2] they are judged according to the books, according to their works

    [3] "the sea [the sea of wicked humanity] give up its [spiritually] dead"

    [4] this includes "every man" [Gk: 'each one or 'every one' or 'every person']

    [5] "death [the cause] and hell [the realm] are cast into the lake of fire"

    [6] and those "not found in the Book of Life were cast into the Lake of Fire"

    [7] this "Lake of Fire is the Second Death"
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http://www.bible-truths.com/lake4.html

And so this Prodigal SINNED, was LOST, and spiritually DIED. Surely he is outside of the realm of salvation now. No, he is in the perfect realm FOR SALVATION. How many millions of times this parable of the Prodigal Son has been read, but how many times has its truth ever been understood and perceived? This prodigal was, according to his father, "DEAD." And it was after his father said that he was "dead" that he welcomed him back, forgave him, exalted him, and rewarded him! Now who says one can't be saved after death. It is after death that most of humanity will be saved.

May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL! Parables are NOT literal, that's why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon? Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?" I speak as fool. Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23). SPIRITUAL DEATH! What must happen AFTER we spiritually DIE? "JUDGMENT!" The spiritual DEAD must be JUDGED. Does judging CORRECT the spiritually dead sinners? Yes it does. That is what the parable of the Prodigal Son is all about. God's "ways and means" ALWAYS WORK!
-----------------------------------

http://www.bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

PARABLES MUST ALWAYS BE INTERPRETED

Parables are not to be taken literally. They are to be understood "figuratively." The real meaning is not in what they literally say, but in what the symbols and figurative language represent. That's why they are called "parables." This is axiomatic!

Let us turn to some parables for proof of this point:

The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:32)

    "...this thy brother was dead..."

Comment: He wasn't literally "dead." He came home again "alive." God did not resurrect him from the dead. The Resurrection is yet future.

So the prodigal was NOT literally dead, but from the perspective of his father, he was as good as dead or he could have been considered Spiritually dead.
------------------------------

Peace micah,

G.Driggs

[dave]

With a great deal of humility I say I do not understand what you say. I believe in spirit, I believe in spirutual. I am mystified tho, of "spiritually dead" and we will have "spiritual bodies." I believe that there is ONE body and that there is ONE spirit, where I become suspicious is the "spiritual bodies" thing.
As long as those of us who are reasoning the things of God, one of the most important things is the understanding, reasoning, and accepting that however we see, however we attempt to understand,,,we must come to the foundation and beginning, that there is only ONE, and our seeking and digging must start with one and end with one.

[Akira329]

This verse is the only time we find "spiritual body" in the Word of God. (1 Cor.15:44) And we find that it is single, not plural as bodies.

1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
.
I have accepted the teaching that we will have spiritual bodies at the resurrection. 

The verse in ICor.15:44 reads that mankind is sown(or began) a natural(sensitive that is, animate)
it is raised(aroused or awaken from sleep) spiritual(non-carnal) and we know from 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, .....this verse tells me that when the natural body(first adam) will be raised a spiritual body(second adam

This all makes me reason and except that we do not recieve spiritual bodies when we die or when resurrected, that there is no  such thing as spiritually dead, except in christian religion teaching.

How do you accept the teaching that we have spiritual bodies at resurrection but conclude that we don't using the same verse??

Here is what Paul said,
1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the body) is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  It (the body) is sown in dishonour; it (the body) is raised in glory: it (the body) is sown in weakness; it (the body) is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  It (the body) is sown a natural body; it (the body) is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Antaiwan

[JohnMichael]

One body is referring to God's people, His chosen, His elect. The word body is not referring to muscle, skin, bones, and tendons when mentioned in that verse.

Eph 4:4  one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 1:22  and all things He did put under his feet, and did give him--head over all things to the assembly,
Eph 1:23  which is his body, the fulness of Him who is filling the all in all,

Remember:

1. No one verse is of its own interpretation (2 Pet 1:20)
2. Never let assumption fill in the blanks - that's how false doctrines get started.

Hope this helps
John

[Kat]

Hi Micah7:9,

Gen 7:22  all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.

All people (animals as well) when born are given "the breath of the spirit of life." This is the natural/carnal mind of a person in which they have consciousness and preception, so we can think, reason, learn, remember and where our feelings and emotions come from. It's what gives us personalities and makes us individuals that we are.

1Co 2:11  For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him?...

This is how all people are born and do not know spiritual (of the Spirit of God) things, this is the natural/carnal man of flesh.

1Co 2:14  The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

If God has chosen a person, at some point He will give them His Holy Spirit that joins with their natural spirit, so they can receive/understand things from God. This is when their eyes are opened, they are made alive to know the things of the Spirit of God. Paul teaches us all about this very thing

1Co 2:11-16  ...So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

When the Holy Spirit comes into a person, Christ lives in them and begins to prepare them for the kingdom. This preparation is a process where He works with them through the Holy Spirit to overcome their sins, so that sin no longer has dominion over them. This process is called dying to self, it is our baptism into Jesus Christ and it's not being dunked in water.

Rom 6:3-8  Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall be united with Him in a resurrection like His. We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him.

Rom 8:5-11  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

v. 14  For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

I hope this was helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[G. Driggs]

With a great deal of humility I say I do not understand what you say. I believe in spirit, I believe in spirutual. I am mystified tho, of "spiritually dead" and we will have "spiritual bodies." I believe that there is ONE body and that there is ONE spirit, where I become suspicious is the "spiritual bodies" thing.
As long as those of us who are reasoning the things of God, one of the most important things is the understanding, reasoning, and accepting that however we see, however we attempt to understand,,,we must come to the foundation and beginning, that there is only ONE, and our seeking and digging must start with one and end with one.

I think I see what your saying, if I misunderstand please forgive me. Im still learning too, and I love discussing what I have learned here.

I agree there is ONE body, made up of many members, or individuals. Paul tells us in 1Co 12 how exactly we are not only ONE body, but also many members. One body with different personalities and experiences all working as ONE body. Like a well oiled machine with all pistons firing.

Rom 12:4  For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1Co 12:12  For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14  For the body is not one member, but many.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe this will carry on into the age where we are ruling with Christ. Still ONE body with a common goal, same heart and mind but still individuals with individual spiritual bodies. It only seems like this to me right now, so I'm just as open to correction. If anyone knows where Ray talks about this please share.

Here a short excerpt where Ray uses an analogy to explain.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

We don't become mass hypnotized robots, but we become one in spirit, one in perfection and one in love.  He goes on to say, "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us..... that they may be one, even as We are one,  I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one;" (John 17:21-22)

These are some of the reasons, you will be hearing me say more, everything is one.  It all comes down to one thing.  There is one God and God is above everything there is.  There is one God.

So everything really is ONE.  All the other little twos, threes and fours are really of no consequence, compared to the ONE, see.  The One, the all.
So we read in Ephesians, Paul understood this, he didn't copy it from some other place, he understood it.

Eph 4:1-3  "I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the calling with which you are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit..."

See "the unity of the Spirit" there is the key, we are one in and through SPIRIT.
We are individuals, I have my personality, somebody else has their personality and some don't have a personality, you know.   But we're all individuals.  But we can be all one in spirit, that is what binds us together as one, spirit.  So "endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit."  

You could get a superficial feeling of this, when you have a group of men in the army, let's say the navy seals or somebody. They are so precisely trained to do one job together, that 6 of them function as one, see. They are multiple individuals, but function as one.  We call it, I think it's Latin, Esprit de corps..... the spirit of the corps, the group.  That's what Jesus Christ and God His Father have, they have a lot of Esprit de corps.  They are one Spirit, it's the same spirit and it's the same spirit of perfection wisdom and knowledge, love and power.  Same Spirit!  How could they both have that and not be God?  But there is only one Spirit.
Wherever God gives His spirit in this room, it's all the same spirit.  Those of us who have that spirit, have a certain Esprit de corps with one another.  Now we don't do it as well, I realize that and some of us are virtually strangers.  But if we can talk to each other for an hour or so and know that we have that bond.  You would trust me and I would trust you anywhere.  Why?  Because you have the spirit of God.
-------------------------

The other members who commented here made some excellent points as well and are worth considering.

G.Driggs

[Kat]

Hi Grace,

This is from the part 16-E 'Hades and the Second Death' of the Lake of Fire series. It should help you understand about the second death.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ------------

Now get ready for a real revelation. There are two mysteries in Heb. 9:27 when applied to God's Elect:

what and when is the "ONCE to die?"

what and when is the "after this JUDGMENT?"

We will take up the Elect's Judgment part of this verse first.

We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."

For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see. But there is still an enigma about this verse that we will cover a little later.

GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH THROUGH JUDGMENT

As a young man I used to think, horrors of horrors, God is going to throw people into a lake of fire which will be their SECOND death! It all seemed so frightful and final. Little did I know that we are all destined for some form of this same lake of fire/second death/judgment. Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.

It's all in Rom. 8:13:

"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

Paul puts people into two options (based on God's foreknowledge):

OPTION ONE is for the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because "it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).

OPTION TWO is for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).

The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

"Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).

"Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).

But how can I say that all these Scriptures have reference to our Second Death, seeing that not one of them mentions a "second death?" The answer is threefold:

1. The Second Death IS Judgment, and Judgment after the resurrection is called the Second death.

2. The Lake of Fire IS the Second Death, and we too go through the Lake of Fire (also called, Gehenna fire, eonian fire, etc.), so we too go through the Second Death, and the above Scriptures refer to the Judgment of death on God's Elect.

3. We will see that this Second Death comes after a previous death, and therefore must be a "second" death. Notice how our death is linked with fire.
------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat  

[dave]

My main thought is why didnt Paul teach about "spiritual BODIES, spiritual DEATH, spiritually ALIVE," he certainly could have put those words together for people to understand. Ive heard them all my llife. I am not trying to say I dont believe in spiritual things, I do, but should it be a truth that when the Lord has brought all that He is going to bring to His beginning and end that we will have spiritual "bodies" why didnt SOMEBODY say it? Paul speaks only of a "natural BODY" and a "spiritual BODY" not more than one.

[JohnMichael]

My main thought is why didnt Paul teach about "spiritual BODIES, spiritual DEATH, spiritually ALIVE," he certainly could have put those words together for people to understand. Ive heard them all my llife. I am not trying to say I dont believe in spiritual things, I do, but should it be a truth that when the Lord has brought all that He is going to bring to His beginning and end that we will have spiritual "bodies" why didnt SOMEBODY say it? Paul speaks only of a "natural BODY" and a "spiritual BODY" not more than one.

My personal belief on this is that God intended for things to be confusing at first glance. In this way, only by His Spirit could one be given understanding so that man could not boast of himself.

May His Spirit give you understanding in this.

John

[mharrell08]

My main thought is why didnt Paul teach about "spiritual BODIES, spiritual DEATH, spiritually ALIVE," he certainly could have put those words together for people to understand.

Paul did teach these things. Look within the following excerpt for passages from Paul's epistles:

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16-E (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm):

The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!

    "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

    "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).

    "As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).

    "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).

    "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

    "As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).

    "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).

    "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).

    "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).

    "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).

    "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

    "Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).

    "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).

    "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).

    "Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).

But how can I say that all these Scriptures have reference to our Second Death, seeing that not one of them mentions a "second death?" The answer is threefold:

    The Second Death IS Judgment, and Judgment after the resurrection is called the Second death.

    The Lake of Fire IS the Second Death, and we too go through the Lake of Fire (also called, Gehenna fire, eonian fire, etc.), so we too go through the Second Death, and the above Scriptures refer to the Judgment of death on God's Elect.

    We will see that this Second Death comes after a previous death, and therefore must be a "second" death. Notice how our death is linked with fire.

Ive heard them all my llife. I am not trying to say I dont believe in spiritual things, I do, but should it be a truth that when the Lord has brought all that He is going to bring to His beginning and end that we will have spiritual "bodies" why didnt SOMEBODY say it? Paul speaks only of a "natural BODY" and a "spiritual BODY" not more than one.

Might just be in the way you are understanding the term 'body'. As Ray noted in his last bible study, we use lots of singular nouns & pronouns when referring to multiple units. If I were to say, "the human body will be changed after spiritual conversion", did I leave anyone out? Though I did not say 'human bodies', nonetheless, I am referring to every human being.

Not only do we have scriptures that talk about our bodies being converted from flesh into spirit, we have Christ as an example as well, after His resurrection. His spiritual body was able to alter his appearance, pass through solid objects, etc. Peter talked of Christ being our example to follow and John also noted we will 'be like Him'. Just a thought...


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Kat]

Hi Micah7:9,

1Co 15:35  But someone will say, How are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come?

Paul is putting the question forth as to how the dead are raised up, this would be referring to all the dead. He just says "with what body?" So the singular word was just a reference point "what body" to ask the question.

1Co 15:38  And God gives it a body as it has pleased Him, and to each of the seeds its own body.

Paul goes on to say "gives it" singular,  'a body' singular, as the same reference point about that which he is speaking of. He is talking about what happens to an individual person, their body. He does use the word "bodies" in verse 40 to indicate the plural.

1Co 15:40  There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;

It verse 44 he goes back to speaking of "it is sown," so using "it" referring to the singular "body."

1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

But when you go further down as Paul is speaking, he does use the word "we," so we know that he is talking about all the believers.

1Co 15:51  Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
1Co 15:52  in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

Anyway I hope that is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

Not only do we have scriptures that talk about our bodies being converted from flesh into spirit, we have Christ as an example as well, after His resurrection. His spiritual body was able to alter his appearance, pass through solid objects, etc. Peter talked of Christ being our example to follow and John also noted we will 'be like Him'. Just a thought...


Hope this helps,

Marques

Joh 20:26  And after eight days, again were his disciples within, and Thomas with them; Jesus cometh, the doors having been shut, and he stood in the midst, and said, `Peace to you!'
Are we not assuming He altered His appearance to "pass thru?"

[dave]

My main thought is why didnt Paul teach about "spiritual BODIES, spiritual DEATH, spiritually ALIVE," he certainly could have put those words together for people to understand.

Paul did teach these things. Look within the following excerpt for passages from Paul's epistles:

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16-E (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm):

The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!

    "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).

    "I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).

    "As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).

    "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).

    "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

    "As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).

    "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).

    "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).

    "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).

    "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).

    "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).

    "Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).

    "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).

    "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).

    "Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).

But how can I say that all these Scriptures have reference to our Second Death, seeing that not one of them mentions a "second death?" The answer is threefold:

    The Second Death IS Judgment, and Judgment after the resurrection is called the Second death.

    The Lake of Fire IS the Second Death, and we too go through the Lake of Fire (also called, Gehenna fire, eonian fire, etc.), so we too go through the Second Death, and the above Scriptures refer to the Judgment of death on God's Elect.

    We will see that this Second Death comes after a previous death, and therefore must be a "second" death. Notice how our death is linked with fire.

Ive heard them all my llife. I am not trying to say I dont believe in spiritual things, I do, but should it be a truth that when the Lord has brought all that He is going to bring to His beginning and end that we will have spiritual "bodies" why didnt SOMEBODY say it? Paul speaks only of a "natural BODY" and a "spiritual BODY" not more than one.

Might just be in the way you are understanding the term 'body'. As Ray noted in his last bible study, we use lots of singular nouns & pronouns when referring to multiple units. If I were to say, "the human body will be changed after spiritual conversion", did I leave anyone out? Though I did not say 'human bodies', nonetheless, I am referring to every human being.

Not only do we have scriptures that talk about our bodies being converted from flesh into spirit, we have Christ as an example as well, after His resurrection. His spiritual body was able to alter his appearance, pass through solid objects, etc. Peter talked of Christ being our example to follow and John also noted we will 'be like Him'. Just a thought...


Hope this helps,

Marques

BODY G4983  sōma  the body (as a sound whole) from  G4982 sōzō From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
This tells me that a body is sound..[.sound].. from dictionary (a : free from injury or disease b : free from flaw, defect, or decay) examples.....a building of sound construction ........The bridge is structurally sound.

[dave]

I must add also that is much talk in christian circles of "glorified bodies" yet the Bible is silent on this as well.

I am not attempting to say that I do not believe in some of terms and issuses I bring up, its just that when Im studying and I use the concordance and esword and find that some phrases that are written and taught about I am unable to find them. So I just ponder and wonder if these phrases that seem so utterly simple to us now, WHY were that not seen to be useful to the Apostles?

[mharrell08]

Joh 20:26  And after eight days, again were his disciples within, and Thomas with them; Jesus cometh, the doors having been shut, and he stood in the midst, and said, `Peace to you!'
Are we not assuming He altered His appearance to "pass thru?"

No, when I spoke of altering His appearance, I was referring to when He spoke with Mary Magdalene, who did not recognize Him:

John 20:14-15  Now when she [Mary] had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, "Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away."

Also, the disciples on the road to Emmaus

Luke 24:15-16  So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.

The passage that you posted above states that the doors were shut (as in a closed room), but Jesus 'appeared' in the midst of them. Perhaps He did not pass through the walls but simply made Himself appear instantly into their view. Either way, having a spiritual body would seem to give one abilities that no human being has.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[mharrell08]

I must add also that is much talk in christian circles of "glorified bodies" yet the Bible is silent on this as well.

I am not attempting to say that I do not believe in some of terms and issuses I bring up, its just that when Im studying and I use the concordance and esword and find that some phrases that are written and taught about I am unable to find them. So I just ponder and wonder if these phrases that seem so utterly simple to us now, WHY were that not seen to be useful to the Apostles?

Spiritual or celestial bodies are said to have a type of glory. Even our current terrestrial bodies are said to have a 'glory'.

1 Cor 15:40-41  There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory

I think the things we understand and talk about now we learned from the Apostles, they simply said it a different way. Paul said the celestial (spiritual) body has a glory, today we may say a 'glorified body'. Tomato, Tomatoe


Marques

[dave]

Still Paul only used celestial bodies, one time. And that only means "above/sky"  and glorify is and honor isnt it?
GLORY G1392 doxazō
From G1391; to render (or esteem) glorious (in a wide application): - (make) glorify (-ious), full of (have) glory, honour, magnify.

What I have learned from Rays papers and his audios that has stuck out is that what we are being led to see, heard and understand is that the words of The Book and the Words of Jesus are SPIRIT, and I dont believe that we fully understand SPIRIT....yet.
Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;  

And that we are to understand the wisdom and depth of ONE...Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one.'

[Revilonivek]

This verse is the only time we find "spiritual body" in the Word of God. (1 Cor.15:44) And we find that it is single, not plural as bodies.

1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
.
I have accepted the teaching that we will have spiritual bodies at the resurrection. 

The verse in ICor.15:44 reads that mankind is sown(or began) a natural(sensitive that is, animate)
it is raised(aroused or awaken from sleep) spiritual(non-carnal) and we know from 1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, .....this verse tells me that when the natural body(first adam) will be raised a spiritual body(second adam

This all makes me reason and except that we do not recieve spiritual bodies when we die or when resurrected, that there is no  such thing as spiritually dead, except in christian religion teaching.

How do you accept the teaching that we have spiritual bodies at resurrection but conclude that we don't using the same verse??

Here is what Paul said,
1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the body) is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43  It (the body) is sown in dishonour; it (the body) is raised in glory: it (the body) is sown in weakness; it (the body) is raised in power:
1Co 15:44  It (the body) is sown a natural body; it (the body) is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Antaiwan

Hey- here's something interesting..  later in that same chapter

1Co 15:50

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

resurrection of the dead isn't what you think..People think it's going to be like  zombies  crawling out of the grave and  then restored back as humans..  It said, flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. So therefore, we will not be humans when we resseurct from the dead. just something different.

So it debunks the theory that many believe the wicked will burn in hell with the physical human bodies.  so of course the fire, brimestone, etc are spiritual not literal.

[dave]

I like that, never put it together. Thanks