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Author Topic: Couple of points  (Read 2850 times)

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djc56

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Couple of points
« on: April 30, 2011, 01:23:19 AM »

Greetings all:

I have been consumed in reading old e-mails to Ray, but a couple of points crossed my mind.

1) Has anyone here got that "I'm failing and missing the mark" feeling?
Paul mentioned running the good race and there are times I wonder if I'm even on the track let alone running.

2) Adultery:One thing I picked up from reading e-mails to Ray, is that Ray is a wordsmith. Isn't "adultery" from the word adulterate - render something poorer in quality by adding something?
I mean, doesn't adding cream adulterate coffee?

In short, is the sin of adultery really cheating on one's spouse? We already have commands against fornication and coveting a neighbor's wife etc...

Your thoughts?

No, I'm not covering a guilty conscience.
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Kat

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Re: Couple of points
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2011, 01:36:59 AM »


Hi djc56,

Ray had a Bible study on marriage, here are a couple excerpts about adultery.

 http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.0.html --------

(08)  Sex outside of marriage is adultery and whoredom, by definition.  Of course most people are guilty of that, yours truly included.  But that is the fact, it is called adultery and whoredom. 

Heb 13:4  Marriage (matrimony)  is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled; but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Marriage would probably been better translated matrimony, that is actually the marriage state, when a couple are married and living together as husband and wife.  That institution there, matrimony.  But notice what He contrasts it with…matrimony is honorable, what is matrimony?  It’s somebody who went through a wedding with exchanging of vows and forming a covenant. 
What if you don‘t do that?  What about people who say, ‘well, I just want to live together and have sex and never get married.’  They never commit and they say, ‘I don‘t want a piece of paper, she knows I love her.’  Yea well you just keep telling yourself that and maybe she doesn’t know that, maybe you’ve halfway convinced her. 
Notice what He contrast it with…… matrimony.  The marriage institution is honorable and the bed undefiled - having sex together as a husband and wife.  The word undefiled, that’s kind of a semi-negative to me, the word is pure.  Why put undefiled?  The word is pure.  The marriage bed between a husband and wife is pure in God’s eyes.  It’s pure to have sex with your wife or your mate, that’s pure. 

But notice what the opposite is, if it’s not marriage,  “…but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.”  If you are not in matrimony in your wedding bed, what does God consider you?  A whoremonger and a adulterer.  Now do I need to read Rev. 21:8, “All whoremongers will find their place in the Lake of fire.”  Is that not clear enough there?  People don’t put these things together.  If you are not married, but you live together, you are a whoremonger and adulterer.
v
Mat 5:31  It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
v. 32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery.

So Jesus did not even contradict the aspect of divorce, you know when they came to Him and said, can a man divorce for any reason.  He said that if you put away your wife or divorced her, except it be for a cause of fornication or immorality - ‘porneia’ is the word, then you cause that person, if they go out and find another mate, then you cause them to commit adultery.  You had no right to divorce that person. 
Now He doesn’t say it specifically, but you can deduce, you know you can lawfully, legally and rightly deduce from what is said, something that isn’t said.  If you shouldn’t divorce for that, “except for fornication,” that means for fornication, you can divorce.  So if Jesus Christ is putting His approval on a certain aspect of immorality where divorce can be involved, than He is also backing up the fact, that it was a legal marriage until the divorce came about. 
Jesus does not contradict divorcement.  If adultery is involved, Jesus okays the marriage of a divorced person.
-------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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djc56

  • Guest
Re: Couple of points
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2011, 09:26:51 AM »

Greetings to you Kat.
Thanks for the reply.

Texas isn't the only "cattle country".
Pretty big business here in North Dakota too.

And when Randy's Red Angus bull gets into Jeff's Charolais heifers, there are some serious problems and tempers fly for Jeff's stock has been adulterated.
The problems have nothing to do with cattle "infidelity".

As I posted earlier, Ray is a master wordsmith. (This is a compliment).

Again, you responded to infidelity in marriage (thank you), but could "adultery" have a different meaning/application other than the common one of churchanity?

I'm not saying we are cattle, but we certainly are beasts.

Your thoughts?
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JohnMichael

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Re: Couple of points
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2011, 10:19:08 AM »

Adulterate: to debase or make impure

It can have more applications than marriage, but remember, our goal should be on spiritual things - not physical.

Taking God's Truth and mixing in false doctrines can be considered a spiritual adultery/fornication. Babylon is said to be guilty of this in Rev 18:3.

The Greek word for Adultery is moichoa/moichos

G3429
μοιχάω
moichaō
moy-khah'-o
From G3432; (middle voice) to commit adultery: - commit adultery.

G3432
μοιχός
moichos
moy-khos'
Perhaps a primary word; a (male) paramour; figuratively apostate: - adulterer.

Apostate: a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc. (or Truth)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 10:23:44 AM by JohnMichael »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Couple of points
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2011, 10:29:10 AM »

Yes.  And one can commit murder "spiritually" as well.

Jesus used the word here:  Mat 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  

I'm not sure if you can butcher cattle 'spiritually'.   :D  But I reckon you can do other things to them that one might 'call' butchering in a spiritual sense of the word. 

« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 10:38:02 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

djc56

  • Guest
Re: Couple of points
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2011, 01:42:37 PM »

Yep, good comments...Especially Matt.5:28.
But, are we not still beasts until the ressurrection?

I think I got it on physical giving way to spiritual.

Only a poor student with an appaling lack of Scriptural foundation would start this thread :-\

BTW, any comments on the first part?
Not just failing to run the good race, but am I on the right track???
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Couple of points
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2011, 02:22:40 PM »


Hi djc56,

Quote
But, are we not still beasts until the ressurrection?

You got me to thinking about the beast within, so I looked in the article 14 "The Beast Within.' Here are a couple excerpts.

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ---------------

Long before Jesus can have a COMPANY of manifest SONS and DAUGHTERS of God, there has to be individual begettals by the Holy Spirit of God in chosen individuals in every generation leading up to the coming of the Lord at the end of this age.

"For the mystery [secret, hidden truth] of iniquity [lawlessness] does already work [‘is inwardly working’ The Emphasized New Testament: A New Translation (J. B. Rotherham)]: only he who now lets will let [‘only he who restrains will do so’], until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked [Lawless One] be revealed IN [IN YOU] and TO YOU, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming;

Even him [not original], whose coming [the man of sin called son of perdition IN YOU] is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (II Thes. 2:1-9).
v
v
 Let’s read on—I will repeat verses 8-9:

"And then shall that Wicked [Lawless One], whom the Lord shall CONSUME, with the spirit of His mouth, and shall DESTROY with the brightness of HIS COMING [Christ’s coming/Christ’s presence]: "Even him [not in original] whose [the ‘man of sin’] coming [or presence] is after [in accordance with] the working of Satan…"

Make no mistake about it: SATAN is completely involved in the coming, presence, manifestation, and even EXISTENCE of this man of sin. Satan knows all about sin, seeing that:

"He that commits sin [as in ‘the man of sin’] is OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works [or ‘WORKINGS’] of the devil" (I John 3:08).

I am now going to make an observation that I believe is inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. One can easily see that if we removed the words "…whom the Lord shall consume, with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming…" and connected the remaining words (leaving out the two words ‘Even him,’ which are NOT in the original Greek), the sentence makes perfect sense:

"And then shall that Wicked [Lawless One], be revealed, whose coming is after the working of Satan…"

We can immediately see that the extra words (added by the King James Version) are quite unnecessary. It became obvious to me that not only could "…whom the Lord shall consume, with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming…" be set off by parentheses, but that it is mandatory that this clause be set off by parentheses. I then, after seeing this consulted the Concordant Version to see how they handled this verse, and I was pleasantly surprised to read the following:

"…[and] then will be unveiled [or revealed] the lawless one (WHOM THE LORD JESUS WILL DISPATCH WITH THE SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH AND WILL DISCARD BY THE ADVENT OF HIS PRESENCE), whose presence is in accord with the operation of Satan…"

(whom the Lord shall consume, with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming) is a PARENTHETICAL STATEMENT regarding HOW this man of sin, will be taken care of and rendered harmless, IN THE BELIEVER ONLY (the Emphatic Diaglott also puts this clause in parentheses).

So why do I say that it is mandatory that this clause be a parenthetical statement rather than a necessary part of the sentence, which contains this clause?

Answer: Because of what follows next. Verses 10 through 12 prove conclusively that this man [singular] of sin, son [singular] of perdition, he [singular] as God, and showing himself [singular] is NOT JUST ONE SINGULAR PERSON revealed ONCE at the end of the age ONLY. Let’s read it:

"And then shall that Wicked [Lawless One] be revealed [opening parenthetical statement], (whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming) [closing parenthetical statement]; whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in THEM [plural] that perish; because THEY [plural] received NOT the love of the truth [as believers do receive ‘the love of the Truth’], that THEY [plural] might be saved [as are believers in the first resurrection are saved]. And for this cause God shall send THEM [plural] strong delusion, that THEY [plural] should believe a lie: That THEY [plural] ALL [plural] might be damned [condemned] who believe NOT the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness"

The man of sin/son of perdition is UNIVERSAL and found in ALL MANKIND. THAT is how Satan deceives THE WHOLE WORLD (Rev. 12:9).

Men are looking for the BEAST (the man of sin/son of perdition) OUT THERE somewhere, when all the while he has been present INSIDE OF US ALL!

              
                   THE PARENTHETICAL STATEMENT IS FOR BELIEVERS ONLY

(whom [the beastly man of sin/son of perdition] the LORD shall consume with the spirit of His mouth [IN US—WE, believers and lovers of the Truth], and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming [IN US, making His presence known IN US, destroying the beastly man of sin/son of perdition IN US, making the ‘Day of the Lord to be at hand’ FOR US, and IN US] )! Let’s read it:

"But WE [Paul and believers. NOT ‘them’ and ‘they,’ but ‘WE’—‘Lovers of the Truth’] are bound to give thanks always to God for YOU, brethren beloved in the Lord, because God has from the beginning CHOSEN you [called AND CHOSEN you] to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth: Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the OBTAINING of the GLORY [‘That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be GLORIFIED IN YOU’ Chapter 1:12] of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, which has loved us, and has given us everlasting [eonian] consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work" (Verses 13-17).
--------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 05:17:58 PM by Kat »
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Marky Mark

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Re: Couple of points
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2011, 03:31:24 PM »

Quote
Has anyone here got that "I'm failing and missing the mark" feeling?

As Ray likes to point out, we are sinning machines. Missing the mark can be summed up quite nicely in this verse.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Our lust and pride of life have been a stumbling block since the world was created.

1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

But since the Potter is all powerful,how can one not sin against the Spirit when it is the Spirit that mars the vessel.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Psa 51:5  Lo! in iniquity, was I brought forth, And, in sin, did my mother conceive me.

Php 2:13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


 We are but dust of the earth being formed into a higher level of understanding in Gods Truths. Christ's commission will not fail because He is the Savior of all.

Ecc 3:17 I said in my heart:As for the righteous and the wicked, the One, Elohim, shall judge both of them. For He has set a season for every event and for every deed."

Luke 19:10  For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was destroyed.


1 Tim 2:3-4  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

As much as we hate our sin, it is all part of the process of dying daily to self.We can have joy in our pain.

Col 1:24  Now I have joy in my pain because of you, and in my flesh I undergo whatever is still needed to make the sorrows of Christ complete, for the salvation of his body, the church;


Quote
am I on the right track???

When we..... Php 3:3.....have no confidence in the flesh.
 and sin no longer has dominion over you,then I would say that you are on the right track.



Peace...Mark 



 
 
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djc56

  • Guest
Re: Couple of points
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2011, 04:03:03 PM »

Kat and Marky Mark, I long for the day when I too can elaborate on such a topic the way you two have here.
My original thought was that maybe this was a prohibition against "race mixing".
I'm "failing" cause I can't see the obvious unless and until it is pointed out.
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Revilonivek

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Re: Couple of points
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2011, 07:23:10 PM »

Hey-
 just something interesting..

Scripture says You cannot re-marry if you decide to divorce. people tend to turn a blind eye to that one.

1) “So they are no longer two but one flesh.  What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder” (Matthew 19:6 & Mark 10:9). asunder means to separate.

2) “Whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery” (Matthew 5:32, 19:9 & Luke 16:18).

3) "Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery" (Matthew 5:32).

4) "...whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her" (Mark 10:11 & Luke 16:18), which applies to women as well (Mark 10:12).

what's the difference between fornication and adultery? just wondering?

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Kat

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Re: Couple of points
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2011, 07:53:21 PM »


Hi Denise,

Here are a couple of emails on divorce.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7413.0.html ----------

There are a hundred good reasons why I don't get involved in counseling people in divorce and remarriage situations and other legal matters.  One ends up in the same situation as Paul called "endless genealogies."  I assume you may be referring to your own marriage with this question?  Okay, so you marry a woman who was not legally divorced based on her husband committing adultery. They just divorced for whatever reasons. Now then, are you legally married to her and is she legally married to you?  Well........has her husband remarried?  Cause if he did, then he IS committing adultery, seeing that your divorce was apparently not legal in God's eyes.  So now that he is married (legal or not) to another and having sex (adultery) with another woman, she could not legally divorce him on grounds of adultery. But you are already divorced, he is now married, and she now married.  Okay, suppose her husband is not remarried and is not committing adultery, then what?  Should she legally divorce you according to the laws of the law, and remarry her old husband if he will have her?  What if he really does WANT HER?  And what if she really decides that she did love him and wants to divorce you now and remarry her old husband?  Can they do that?  (In "God's" eyes?)
     
    What if you die, and your present wife who is not legally divorced because there was no adultery in her first marriage, wants to remarry a third man, and the third man is legally divorced because his wife did commit adultery, can she marry him if her first husband will not take her back, even though he never did commit adultery on her when they were married?  But what if your wife really did commit adultery in her first marriage, but her first husband forgave her and didn't want to divorce her, but she wanted to divorce him, because she felt guilty for betraying him? Can she divorce him if it was her who committed the adultery, and then marry you?  I could go on like this for hours and hours.
     
    It's just more "endless genealogy," and I won't get involved in it. Furthermore, NO ONE will divorce their mate if they love them, no matter WHAT I would say, so this whole conversation is pretty close to pointless.  Furthermore, I don't believe that I have ever had anyone tell me the absolute truth when asking me to "settle" such convoluted marital situations.
     
    Listen:  You cannot UN-ring a bell.  Sometimes it is not possible to go back and straighten out all of the convoluted mistakes we made in life and such things as marriage and remarriage. Repent for what you have done and for what you are and GO ON with you life.  If a husband BEATS his wife, or ABUSES the children, or does NOT PROVIDE food and shelter for his family, or is totally IMMORAL, or DESERTS his wife, or DIES, then the wife is not expected to remained married to such a man if she does not desire, and the same is true she the wife commit these crimes.  Almost all other things are just excuses to have one's cake and eat it too. I hope this has been a little helpful to you.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2774.0.html  ----------

Divorce:  The only way that Jesus said one can leave a make and/or marry another is if there is "pornia" present (called 'forniction') in the King James.  Pornia means "prostitution," but it can also mean a host of sexual immorality.  Also, Paul tells us that if a man will not provide for his own family, he is "WORSE than an infidel." The same is true of a man or deserts his family, or abuses his wife or children. In such cases of "immorality" a mate should not be considered bound.
     
    God be with you,
    Ray

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Revilonivek

  • Guest
Re: Couple of points
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2011, 10:12:58 PM »



Hi Denise,

Here are a couple of emails on divorce.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7413.0.html ----------

There are a hundred good reasons why I don't get involved in counseling people in divorce and remarriage situations and other legal matters.  One ends up in the same situation as Paul called "endless genealogies."  I assume you may be referring to your own marriage with this question?  Okay, so you marry a woman who was not legally divorced based on her husband committing adultery. They just divorced for whatever reasons. Now then, are you legally married to her and is she legally married to you?  Well........has her husband remarried?  Cause if he did, then he IS committing adultery, seeing that your divorce was apparently not legal in God's eyes.  So now that he is married (legal or not) to another and having sex (adultery) with another woman, she could not legally divorce him on grounds of adultery. But you are already divorced, he is now married, and she now married.  Okay, suppose her husband is not remarried and is not committing adultery, then what?  Should she legally divorce you according to the laws of the law, and remarry her old husband if he will have her?  What if he really does WANT HER?  And what if she really decides that she did love him and wants to divorce you now and remarry her old husband?  Can they do that?  (In "God's" eyes?)
     
    What if you die, and your present wife who is not legally divorced because there was no adultery in her first marriage, wants to remarry a third man, and the third man is legally divorced because his wife did commit adultery, can she marry him if her first husband will not take her back, even though he never did commit adultery on her when they were married?  But what if your wife really did commit adultery in her first marriage, but her first husband forgave her and didn't want to divorce her, but she wanted to divorce him, because she felt guilty for betraying him? Can she divorce him if it was her who committed the adultery, and then marry you?  I could go on like this for hours and hours.
     
    It's just more "endless genealogy," and I won't get involved in it. Furthermore, NO ONE will divorce their mate if they love them, no matter WHAT I would say, so this whole conversation is pretty close to pointless.  Furthermore, I don't believe that I have ever had anyone tell me the absolute truth when asking me to "settle" such convoluted marital situations.
     
    Listen:  You cannot UN-ring a bell.  Sometimes it is not possible to go back and straighten out all of the convoluted mistakes we made in life and such things as marriage and remarriage. Repent for what you have done and for what you are and GO ON with you life.  If a husband BEATS his wife, or ABUSES the children, or does NOT PROVIDE food and shelter for his family, or is totally IMMORAL, or DESERTS his wife, or DIES, then the wife is not expected to remained married to such a man if she does not desire, and the same is true she the wife commit these crimes.  Almost all other things are just excuses to have one's cake and eat it too. I hope this has been a little helpful to you.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2774.0.html  ----------

Divorce:  The only way that Jesus said one can leave a make and/or marry another is if there is "pornia" present (called 'forniction') in the King James.  Pornia means "prostitution," but it can also mean a host of sexual immorality.  Also, Paul tells us that if a man will not provide for his own family, he is "WORSE than an infidel." The same is true of a man or deserts his family, or abuses his wife or children. In such cases of "immorality" a mate should not be considered bound.
     
    God be with you,
    Ray



Thanks Kat.

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