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Author Topic: What exactly is heaven?  (Read 22316 times)

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Kat

  • Guest
Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2011, 01:33:06 AM »


Hi Marques,

I see what you mean. But it would not be an instantaneously perfection like the church teaches, the Elect go through much preparation in this lifetime. But now we only have the earnest of the Spirit, when this carnal flesh is removed and we are born of God we would have full access to the Holy Spirit. Like Jesus could not sin while in the flesh, because the Father would not let Him, we too could serve Him without error, because He would see to it in us also. I don't see that as our acconplishment. I know we would not even come close to being like the Father, but like Jesus Christ to serve the Father.

But I know there is more to this, I guess we will have to wait for what Ray has to say on this.

Gena,

Quote
Kat, your post talks as tho we will be similar to earth ways and things---I just don't see that- when Ray says that its a higher spiritual realm--as we are IN HIM--- I can't see us w/ bodies, and personalities and such

Ray speaks on this in the article 'The Origin of Endless Punishment.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html ----------

The "body" of the deceased is gone forever. In resurrection to immortality, God gives everyone a new spiritual body. God can bring back the person in any "body" He desires. When God puts your "spirit" (not you soul) but your spirit (which has no consciousness) back into another body (as in a resurrection with a new spiritual body), the same real person/soul will live again. God can do this, but man can’t, so fear God.
-----------------------------------------------------

So I think the Elect would be "like" Jesus Christ was after His resurrection. He was able to appear at will in a flesh body that the disciples recognized or did not recognize, whatever He desired. But he could also disappear and be in His glorious spiritual body that they could not see. But as Jesus talked to the disciples and interacted with them He was the "same real person" as they remembered and I would think that will be much the same for the resurrected Elect. We would not lose our individuality and personality that makes us who we are. Why would God be creating all these unique people if not to give His family diversity and I would think He would want to keep that. Just some thoughts though.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2011, 05:53:09 AM »

It is heartening to be part of the maturity in the discussion and sharing in this Thread.
 
Ray gives us “an analogy for God” ....... you can’t find the beginning and you can’t find the end.... Therefore TIME has NOTHING TO DO WITH ETERNITY. L Ray Smith

Though time be billions of years old to a human mind, and a human perspective, it remains so, that God, is not human.

“Still, we are hardly able to visualise this spacetime continuum, or deal with it in practical terms, because human consciousness is bound to the human body, which is in turn bound to a single reference frame. “http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/timedilation.html

This scientific insight might be seen to be Scripturally confirmed in the following :

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope:

Hope, unfettered to the human consciousness bound to the human body, in turn bound to a single reference in birth, ageing then death, is what we are finding in Christ who simultaneously is both Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, at the same TIME. That Time is Now, set free of past or future and liberated into a portal of time that God Himself calls Today. Heb 4 : 7

Neither having beginning of days, nor end of life, is the Son of God, the Alpha and the Omega of everything, and of Whom, we are, His Children.

God has answered Time for all Time in the creation of His Son, the Alpha and the Omega. Sounds like a Paradox that God the Eternal, would create a Son who is beginning and end. Yet to a human mind, the paradox is unfathomable because a human mind sees differently to God.

1Co 2:10  But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Jesus is Alfa AND Omega, simultaneously, at the same time, as in both cause and effect. Not over there Alpha and over here Omega, but THE Alpha and Omega, Total, Perfect, One in God, of God and with God.

A human will distance cause from effect, God from His Son,  and time from eternity, though the Scriptures clearly state:
 
Act 17:28  For in Him we live, and move, and have OUR being...

Who is with us until the end of the world.

The end of the world is not the end of us, but of the world. Mat 28:20 ..........lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

Certainly the duration of a human life is an instant by contrast to the backdrop of the age of the Universe being some 14 billion years old. Yet, extend this thought for just a moment.

For a human, birth and death are a beginning and end. Yet Jesus clearly demonstrates a breaking out of the box. Jesus broke a human lock on time, being death.

The way to the Resurrection and the Life of God has nothing to do with death that has nothing of Christ,  Who has overcome death and is our wholeness and salvation made certain.

In a nut shell. God the Father has answered Time for all Time in the instant His Son showed us death is obsolete and has no tabernacle in His Life nor altar of worship in His mind.

How unlike a human can you be?

Jesus is the “missing link”.....

Arc
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2011, 05:57:51 AM »



What exactly is Heaven?


The Love of God for His Son and the Love of His Son for His Father is IMO, Heaven.
 
1Co 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. :)


Arc
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Marky Mark

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Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2011, 01:26:49 PM »

Marques,we are all a work in progress and as Kat stated, it is a work of His accomplishments that He does within us that has any type of Truth to the Faithful. Anything that we try to bring to the table concerning our own beliefs outside of Scripture has zero Spiritual significance to the Father.
You are correct when you speak of the Fruit of the Spirit,that is what being perfected of the Spirit is all about,being humble,repenting,and conforming Spiritually to our Lord and Savior.   

Psa 10:17  LORD, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:

 1Pe 5:6  Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:


Being argumentative was not my intention :),being true to the Word of God is ;).


Peace...Mark
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One Love

  • Guest
Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2011, 03:31:55 PM »

What exactly is heaven?
Quote
'heaven' is a spiritual realm, not a place.
from Here is an email. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3212.0.html -----
Insert taken from Mr. Smith's paper "The Father's Will"

So let’s think about this a little bit, who is the Father? In Him we live and breath and have our being. Liken the ocean to the Spirit of God, and liken us to the fish.  The fish are 95% water, the ocean is in the fish, and the fish are in the ocean, get it.
A bird has very porous bones, because they have to be very light. It flies in the heavens, it breaths fast, because it needs strength and oxygen. So the air (which is like the Spirit of God, which is what he calls it in the NT, Greek word for spirit is pheuma), the expanse is even called heaven, where the bird flies, and liken the air to the Spirit of God. The bird has air in him and is flying through the air.

Now this is what the Scriptures say, we are in God and God is in us. So, get it out of your head that God is a man, sitting on a stone throne, like Abraham Lincoln in Washington D.C., an old man with gray hair. God is right here, it (Bible) says so, we have to just listen to the words.

God is Spirit, it also says God is invisible, you can’t see Him, not literally. We can see Him in Spirit, as in our heart, in our mind, our soul, our spirit, in our innermost being.
 
The thing that makes us different from plants and other animals, is we can see God.  I’m trying to help you right now, to see God. So when you leave here, you will see God in a way you didn’t, when you walked in here. If God opens it up to you, I can only tell you, but God must open it up for you to grasp it.

God is here, not here because we are here, but He was here before we got here and He’ll still be after we leave. Because this desk is here and this desk has it's cohesion in Jesus Christ. It is through Jesus Christ that this desk holds together or it would fall apart. It takes energy and power, what is the source of the power, Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father and it’s passed off out of Him. One Father, one God, all and everything is out of Him. GOD IS ALMIGHTY!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 03:38:52 PM by Gordon »
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One Love

  • Guest
Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2011, 03:51:15 PM »

Here's more, all these inserts are from this website (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=12212.0), hope this can sum up this topic.

The Kingdom of God/Heaven are one in the same. It is the abode/mind of God in perfect goodness, holiness and truth. It is not a place, but a spiritual realm.  

Your identity is your mind that produce thoughts, attitudes, behavior, intellect, awareness, reason, ideas and memory that come into our awareness from our experiences/life. This is an invisible realm, it's our inner awareness/personality... our heaven. When we begin to learn the knowledge of the truth, we are developing the mind of God, the process of being made into His image.

Luke 17:21  nor will they say, "See here!' or "See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

(http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html)
GOD’S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN’S HEAVEN

Satan is the god of this world (I Cor. 4:4). Satan possesses ALL the kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8-9). Satan appears to the heads of his nations as an angel of light (I Cor. 11:12). It was Satan who appealed to the heaven of Eve’s mind. It was Satan that caused the people to build a tower that would reach MAN’S concept of heaven. The heaven of the minds of those conceiving of such lofty things. It was Satan who caused the king of Babylon to be lifted up in his own heaven, his own mind. Listen to his own words:

God has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 09:29:01 PM by Kat »
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mharrell08

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Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2011, 03:53:31 PM »

Marques,we are all a work in progress and as Kat stated, it is a work of His accomplishments that He does within us that has any type of Truth to the Faithful. Anything that we try to bring to the table concerning our own beliefs outside of Scripture has zero Spiritual significance to the Father.


Why do my beliefs have to be outside of scripture? What exactly was said that was so unscriptural?

We all used to think that creation happened at a much faster rate than what it did. How come we also assume that we as believers will be perfect 'immediately' at the close of the age and ready to judge the world? As the beginning of this age took considerable time, perhaps the end as well? How is that unscriptural? If you, Kat, or anyone else had a simple scripture to support your beliefs, you would have shown it by now.

If you think the short time you have known the few truths of God is enough to make you ready to put on perfection, that's fine. I just don't believe it. I simply believe perfection takes considerable time, and that time is a lot longer than God grants us on this earth. If I'm wrong, so what, big deal...I'm not doubting any scriptures or doctrines, just thinking of a longer timetable than you all. It's The Father's timetable anyways, not ours, so there's no need to take it personal if one of us has a different perspective.

Let's give this subject a rest if all we are going to do is say the same thing over and over.


Thanks,

Marques
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One Love

  • Guest
Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2011, 04:18:33 PM »

Quote
Let's give this subject a rest if all we are going to do is say the same thing over and over.
Yeah, I second that!
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2011, 04:39:37 PM »


Hi Marques,

My understanding is where my study has taken me at this point in time, as it is for us all. I realize that this is not an I'm right or you are thing, it's a discussion, that's all. Now I am aware that I have a LOT to learn and I benefit from these discussions. It's just good to have like minded people to discuss these things with  :)

Gordon, I see you posted a couple of things from Ray. Just so there is no confusion on your reply #54 the top part of that was from a post I made here on the forum and where it started with 'GOD’S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN’S HEAVEN' the rest was from Ray at this link  http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

Ray is studying the subject of who/what the Father is now and believes he is coming to a more profound understanding and plans to have a future Bible study on this. I have an email reply from some questions I ask Ray a short time ago that have relevance to this that I will post on new thread topic - 'Who/What is the Father?'

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Marky Mark

  • Guest
Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2011, 04:51:12 PM »

Quote
Quote
Marques,we are all a work in progress and as Kat stated, it is a work of His accomplishments that He does within us that has any type of Truth to the Faithful. Anything that we try to bring to the table concerning our own beliefs outside of Scripture has zero Spiritual significance to the Father.

Why do my beliefs have to be outside of scripture? What exactly was said that was so unscriptural?

We all used to think that creation happened at a much faster rate than what it did. How come we also assume that we as believers will be perfect 'immediately' at the close of the age and ready to judge the world? As the beginning of this age took considerable time, perhaps the end as well? How is that unscriptural? If you, Kat, or anyone else had a simple scripture to support your beliefs, you would have shown it by now.

If you think the short time you have known the few truths of God is enough to make you ready to put on perfection, that's fine. I just don't believe it. I simply believe perfection takes considerable time, and that time is a lot longer than God grants us on this earth. If I'm wrong, so what, big deal...I'm not doubting any scriptures or doctrines, just thinking of a longer timetable than you all. It's The Father's timetable anyways, not ours, so there's no need to take it personal if one of us has a different perspective.

Let's give this subject a rest if all we are going to do is say the same thing over and over.


Thanks,

Marques


Marques,notice in the quote that you posted I use the word we two times. I was not picking on you in a personal way but rather in a general way concerning all of us,not just you in particular.If I have offended you in any way with my posts,I apologize to you my friend.

Coming together and sharing with like-minded brethren is a blessing,not a curse.

Heb 6:7  For a land, drinking in the frequent rain and producing good plants for those for whom it is worked, has a blessing from God:
Heb 6:8  But if it sends up thorns and evil plants, it is of no use and is ready to be cursed; its only end is to be burned.


Peace...Mark
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GaryK

  • Guest
Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2011, 07:42:45 PM »

Here's more, all these inserts are from this website, hope this can sum up this topic.

The Kingdom of God/Heaven are one in the same. It is the abode/mind of God in perfect goodness, holiness and truth. It is not a place, but a spiritual realm. 

Your identity is your mind that produce thoughts, attitudes, behavior, intellect, awareness, reason, ideas and memory that come into our awareness from our experiences/life. This is an invisible realm, it's our inner awareness/personality... our heaven. When we begin to learn the knowledge of the truth, we are developing the mind of God, the process of being made into His image.

Luke 17:21  nor will they say, "See here!' or "See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

GOD’S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN’S HEAVEN

Satan is the god of this world (I Cor. 4:4). Satan possesses ALL the kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8-9). Satan appears to the heads of his nations as an angel of light (I Cor. 11:12). It was Satan who appealed to the heaven of Eve’s mind. It was Satan that caused the people to build a tower that would reach MAN’S concept of heaven. The heaven of the minds of those conceiving of such lofty things. It was Satan who caused the king of Babylon to be lifted up in his own heaven, his own mind. Listen to his own words:

God has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.




Good stuff Gordon, that's appreciated and from a personal stand, timely as well.   That's heavy stuff, at least to me, and a mind can get lost, quickly, in the thoughts of the matter. 

Let the thread keep rolling folks.   Interesting veiwpoints here and as Kat has said, it's a discussion, and we're all big boys and girls.     

I can see where Marques is coming from and I'm leaning that way myself, however, that said, I think we're all probably in for surprises.   But it's a good to read the mind of others.

Mark, this>>>>>>>:  "Coming together and sharing with like-minded brethren is a blessing, not a curse."    Yes indeed Mark, and so many times I've thought I didn't have the worthiness to even look on scriptures and Ray's teachings.  Seeing this kind of thinking from other members makes the return trip here, to this forum, always worthwhile and points a wayward child back in the right direction.   Good stuff Mark.   ;)

gk
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DougE6

  • Guest
Re: What exactly is heaven?
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2011, 02:15:19 AM »

What about the Apostle Paul?  Did he not exhibit a remarkable level of "perfection"?

2Co 11:18  Since many boast according to the flesh, I too will boast.
2Co 11:19  For you gladly bear with fools, being wise yourselves!
2Co 11:20  For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face.
2Co 11:21  To my shame, I must say, we were too weak for that! But whatever anyone else dares to boast of--I am speaking as a fool--I also dare to boast of that.
2Co 11:22  Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I.
2Co 11:23  Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one--I am talking like a madman--with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death.
2Co 11:24  Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one.
2Co 11:25  Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea;
2Co 11:26  on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers;
2Co 11:27  in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.
2Co 11:28  And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches.
2Co 11:29  Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant?
2Co 11:30  If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.
2Co 11:31  The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.

Pretty impressive spiritual resume. The thing is, is one doesn't know what he has, until he is tested. There was some very severe testing there.  And the motive has to be right. The motive has to be love.

1Co 13:1  If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2  And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3  If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

So how great is your love?  Your "perfection" is not really based on your knowledge, but on your love, and how you have proven it. 
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