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Author Topic: The physical SUN  (Read 17004 times)

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Drew

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The physical SUN
« on: May 03, 2011, 10:03:24 PM »

Recently, I don't remember the context, Mr. Smith said and someone else reminded us that the whole scripture is one giant PARABLE. With that in mind, and that our God doesn't lie. What are we to make of these scriptures?  Ecl.1:5 The sun rises, and the sun sets and gasps back to it's place that it may rise there once more. Josh.10:13 So the sun stood still...Isa.38:8 And the sun turned back ten steps... Do I believe man  says that the Earth revolves around the Sun or that the Sun, and that would imply every thing else, revolves around the Earth? Everyone I have known has accepted that the Sun is the center of our Universe. My spouse, who used to work with a Physicist, asked him how that could be proved. His answer was you would have be outside of our Universe to observe it, so it really can't be proved. Scripture states the facts whether man believes them or not. Am I missing something? Has Mr. Smith ever addressed this question or it just not that important? Anyone?

Drew

P.S. I am aware that two of the refs. were in the category of miracles but not Ecl. and many others that refer to the Sun rising and setting.
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Joel

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2011, 11:07:44 PM »

I for one accept what the scriptures say, as opposed to what man in his convoluted interpretations may promote.
By way of analogy only, Mark 2:27-28
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Joel
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2011, 12:35:55 AM »

Ray certainly believes that the earth revolves around the sun.  For more reference, check out the Nashville '08 conference materials.  

I know that there is minority science that 'disputes' that, but understand that their 'disputing' is based on definitions and what can be 'observed'.  Ordinarily, science watns to describe what can be observed.  Motion only exists in relationship to other motion.  If I am standing still with a butterfly floating around my head, that is a description from my head's perspective.  The butterfly experiences the motion (and therfor describes it) differently.  Now suppose I'm on a 12-foot escalator going downstairs with the same butterfly flying around my head.  I and the butterfly experience and describe our motion the same way, but someone at the bottom of the escalator observes it (and therefor describes it) differently.

Now imagine that the escalator is on a moving steam ship being oberved by a bird who is flying counter to the motion of the butterfly.  And this scene is observed by a US Spy satellite technician who has more interest in the movement of the forty- foot Tsunami soon to pass under our hull towards the coast of Chile, than in the fate of the butterfly.    

The very nature of the universe and the relationship of the many motions contained in it cannot be "observed" except from a postion outside the universe.  There IS no position outside the Universe.  If anybody thinks there is, they have no idea what a universe is.   :D  So, there CANNOT BE any observation of all the motions contained in the universe.  Therefor what careful science says is that it cannot be 'proven'.  And that is true.

With earth-based observation coupled with mathmatics, there is a tremendous amount of 'inferred' safety in saying that the earth and other planets actually DO revolve around the sun.  And we HAVE put 'observation' posts outside of our solar system in the form of missions to the outer planets and beyond.  We can with great safety also infer that all the other solar systems in the galaxy revolve around their 'suns'.  And from that safely infer that every other galaxy works essentially the same way.

As for scripture, God created the Heavens and the Earth.  That's everything.  And in ONE verse, GOD moves His point of observation from the Heavens to the Earth.  What follows is an inspired description of events from the perspective of the Earth--particularly the surface of the waters.  The passages you mention continue in that vein to describe events from man's point of view.  

I'm not a scientist.  That's the best I can do.  I have zero interest in debating science.  I like science because it is not a matter of opinion or 'faith'.  It's a matter of understanding or not understanding.  Science itself is about being wrong until you learn what's right.  That is exactly what my life has been like.  I think we've found what is 'right' concerning the relative motions of the Sun and the planets, including the earth.  It seems kind of unfair (if not tongue in cheek) to require someone to break every law of physics and existense to prove it.

      
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 02:07:27 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Drew

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2011, 01:54:07 AM »

Dave,
I certainly don't want to belabor this, however, I have heard the argument before regarding perspective. I just find it difficult to accept that God inspired Solomon to write what he did when the inspiration could have just as easily have been "the Sun (appears) to rise ... etc." Why, for instance, is it so difficult to believe that God could just as effortlessly "whirl" the, so called,Solar System around the the earth?  I also realize that it really isn't a matter of capability but rather back to, why He would make it appear to be what it isn't? Especially, since over and over He inspired "the Sun rises and sets"! There are reasons that the Lord sends delusions but why this particular allusion? My argument probably isn't flawless but this is particularly fun to me because I want to believe scripture and not "the wisdom of man" in all cases.  I honestly don't think there is any harm in that. What do you think?

Respectfully,

Drew

Drew
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aqrinc

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2011, 02:05:07 AM »

Drew,
To find out a bit more, google Zodiac of Dendera and do some research for yourself. Hope this does not break any forum rules, just making a suggestion.

george.
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Drew

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2011, 02:11:11 AM »

Opps, I went a little overboard in my response. Inexperence! I was trying to correct "allusion" to the proper "illusion". Hopefully I'll do better next time.

Drew
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2011, 02:37:15 AM »

What is a 'delusion'.  It's something that appears to be true, but isn't.  

Why is 'free-will' a delusion.  It appears to be true, but it isn't.

It appears the sun rises and sets.  It doesn't.

You're asking a question about why God would make the earth move relative to the sun and inspire scripture that says the sun rises.  I don't know the High Mind of God.  Maybe He wanted to trap us for centuries into absolute literalism and tradition, and then free us to understand there is more to the Word of God than meets the eye.  Since that's what's happened, that's surely one reason why He's done it.

It's not like He doesnt operate in a similar fashion in other things.  Jesus didn't speak in parables so that His teachings would be easily understood, as a prime example.  Why 'wonder why He did that'?

There are statements in scripture that would seem to say that man makes uncaused choices, if one is prone to believe that way.  They don't mean that at all.  It's the relative vs. the Absolute.  In like manner, people STILL say "sunrise" and "sunset"--it doesn't bother me that they said it in the bible too.  Most of the people who say it now, know better.  I can't be sure that the writers of the Old Testament scripture DIDN'T know better.  And if they didn't?  So what?  They didn't know any number of things that have since been revealed.  

Anyways.  It's possible Ray may have something more (and hopefully more convincing) soon.  In the meantime, let's remember this is Bible-Truths.com.  "Agreeing" is not a requirement, but it shouldn't be asking too much of us to hold this place dear for those of us who do.            

      
  
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 02:44:40 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Drew

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2011, 05:05:50 AM »

Possibly there has been miscommunication on my part and for that I apologize. I certainly have no intentions of trying to prove my position correct and Mr Smith's and your's wrong;if I'm wrong, so what? Another humbling experience, maybe? It has just been an interesting question in my mind for years. You are aware, I'm sure, that being of a minority opinion isn't nessasarily a bad thing. I look forward to hearing Mr Smith's further thoughts on this and other thoughts from scripture. I have much respect for his opinion and yours for that matter. I'll say no more regarding this. I do realize you are a moderator and I respect you for that. I'm a new kid on the block and certainly don't want to create dissension.

Respectfully,

Drew



Drew
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Extol

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2011, 11:26:40 AM »

Hi Drew,

As Dave said, It appears the sun rises and sets. It doesn't.

This is not very difficult to understand. When you're at a train station, it appears the train next to you is moving, when it really isn't.

When you're driving away from your friend, it can appear like he is moving away from you.

It appears the sky is blue, but it really isn't [that's just reflected light from the sun]. Yet because it is convenient, we say "The sky is blue".

Even though the sun isn't really "setting", it's more convenient (and poetic) to say "Look at that beautiful sunset!" rather than say "Look at all of those beautiful colors as the earth completes its axis rotation!"   8)
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2011, 11:37:41 AM »

Drew, no apologies necessary.  If this thing has been on your mind for years, it is only because the Lord has caused it to be there.  Just be aware that He causes things for reasons we do not always understand until after the fact--if even then.  He sets us up, and knocks us down.  Blessed be the name of the Lord.   :D  

Thanks for your understanding.

Do good.

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Marky Mark

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2011, 02:39:51 PM »

Quote
Everyone I have known has accepted that the Sun is the center of our Universe.


To Gods elect, that is precisely what we should believe in,that The Son is the center of our universe within our hearts and minds and to dwell in that universe is to dwell in heaven,with Christ Jesus. I have come to realize that the universe that is within us all is of a far more complex and intricate vacuum then the physical one that lies without.

It amazes me sometimes that when we read Scripture we all have a tendency to look more so at the outward application of the Word and gloss over the real meaning of what is being said,that being,the Spiritual significance of Gods Word. Remember Christ himself says that His words are Spirit, His Words,not ours,but His. We of ourselves cannot add life to His words,only God can do that. People have been debating science for hundreds, even thousands of years and the best that we can come up with is only what The Lord causes humanity to understand,right or wrong.

Lets face it, the best any carnal human being can come to realize in the big scheme of things basically comes down to being self righteous,as in,am I right and what's in it for me (I want my reward and I want it now). As long as the beast sits on the throne we will never be able to be pure of heart. After all ,is this not why we are on this planet to begin with,to learn righteousness and follow in Jesus' footsteps?

If we can put on our Spiritual thinking caps and really read what the Lord is causing us to see,if one has been given the Spiritual eyes to see,a whole new universe will open up,leaving the physical understanding secondary to the primary Spiritual one. As it has been repeated many times here,we have to read all the words. Although all of the Word of God has an outward application it is not the primary way of coming to the understanding of what is being said. When we look for the inward meaning of what the Word is saying through Scripture then the purpose of the Word shines like the sun,as in,our Son.

Jesus The Christ is our S-U-N.

Instead of thinking the word sun is what is being spoken of here in Ecc1:5  lets try to see that the true reference given is 'The Son'.

Take a look at the Rotherhams version of the verse in question.

If we come from an understanding of what Ray has taught us about Scripture being symbolic and that the Bible is one giant parable the verse below and all of Gods Words start to release a higher Spiritual meaning than what is being said outwardly.

Doing a word study can be most advantageous.


Ecc 1:1  The words of the Proclaimer, son of David, king in Jerusalem.
Ecc 1:2  Vanity of vanities! saith the Proclaimer, vanity of vanities! all, is vanity.
Ecc 1:3  What profit hath Man, in all his toil wherewith he toileth under the sun?
Ecc 1:4  Generation, goeth and, generation, cometh, but, the earth, unto times age-abiding, remaineth.
Ecc 1:5  And the sun, breaketh forth, and the sun, goeth in,—yea, unto his own place, he panteth, from whence he brake forth.
Ecc 1:6  Going unto the south, and circling unto the north,—circling, circling continually, is, the wind, and, over its own circuits, returneth the wind.
Ecc 1:7  All the streams, flow into the sea, yet, the sea, is not full,—unto the place whither the streams flow, thither, do they again flow.
Ecc 1:8  All words, are weak, unable is any man to tell,—not satisfied is the eye by seeing, nor filled is the ear with hearing.
Ecc 1:9  That which hath been, is the same that shall be, and, that which hath been done, is the same that shall be done,—and there is, nothing new, under the sun.


I do not want to come across as being condescending in any manner because that is not my intention,Lord forbid. But I would like my brothers and sisters to come to an understanding that when we are steeped in the physical/literal side of what The Word of God has given us we then miss the whole point of what Christ is trying to convey to us, t-h-r-o-u-g-h His words, which are...

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Our life in the flesh will amount to no more then a hill of beans when His Spiritual Words bring forth His Glory within.The Spirit is Life.The flesh and all that it represents is for naught....

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Amen.


Hope this helps some friends. Thanks for allowing me to throw a few penny's into the mix.


Peace...Mark
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indianabob

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2011, 04:41:05 PM »

Folks,

In re: the sun our source of matter and physical energy.

Who knows whether God told Adam that the earth orbits around the sun and that the earth rotates upon it's axis, thereby illustrating the regulating of the seasons and the sequence of days and nights.

Further that Adam knew that the Moon orbits the earth in a particular fashion different from the sun's planets of which the earth is the preeminent one.
I don't believe that we should assume that Adam and Eve were ignorant Neanderthals.
The apparent fact that this information didn't "trickle down" to Adam's progeny does not prove that Adam was unaware of this and many other facts of astrophysics and geophysics.

Pro 25:2 It is the gloryH3519 of GodH430 to concealH5641 a thing:H1697 but the honourH3519 of kingsH4428 is to search outH2713 a matter.H1697
Pro 25:3  The heavenH8064 for height,H7312 and the earthH776 for depth,H6011 and the heartH3820 of kingsH4428 is unsearchable.H369 H2714
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Drew

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2011, 05:54:55 PM »

Drew, no apologies necessary.  If this thing has been on your mind for years, it is only because the Lord has caused it to be there.  Just be aware that He causes things for reasons we do not always understand until after the fact--if even then.  He sets us up, and knocks us down.  Blessed be the name of the Lord.   :D  

Thanks for your understanding.

Do good.



Post initial post I have had time to read responses and to cogitate on them. I seem to be getting at least some partial understanding of why this question has been rolling around my brain for all these years. In the fullness of time the question was put to the perfect audience; the only one that could possibly have helped me to see, and probably others, that it is the spiritual significance that matters not the physical. I went from packing up and leaving town to gaining spiritual understanding that I wouldn't have if I had packed up. Sincerely, this day has been uplifting, to say the least. Thanks to Him and all who have been a part and the day's no over yet.  "Humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God..."

Drew
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Kat

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2011, 06:01:24 PM »


Concerning the sun and the Son, here is an email from Ray.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3838.0.html ------

  Is this a typo in Malachi 4:1-2 (KJV- The Thompson Chain-Reference Bible, 1964), or is it in relationship to the “SUN” gods, and not the true “SON” of God (Jesus Christ)?      

                    “For behold, the day is cometh that shall, burn as an oven; and all he proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the SUN of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.”

1. Is this designed to deceive and confuse, leading the minds of people away from the True God of                 Righteousness?

        2. Why calves?

        3. What of the stall?

        4. Some translations have “its wings”, not his wings, since when is Jesus referred to as the ‘SUN’, or by ‘IT’?

        5. Are the Scriptures that corrupt from the syncretism of…World Religions?

        Thank you for your time and Scriptural insight, even if you’re not able to respond at present.

        Sincerely,

        Jerry

Dear Jerry:

        I am not an authority, but I believe that capitalizing the word "sun" in this verse is a mistake.

        Jesus is likened to "The Morning Star" rather than the sun and the moon which symbolize other things.  Whether it read "his" or "it," matters not, but the "sun" I believe should be a small "s."

        Rotherham will give you a better understanding of the "Calves"--"So shall the sun of righteousness arise to you who revere my Name, with healing in his wings, And you shall come forth and leap for joy LIKE CALVES LET LOOSE FROM THE STALL."  Did you ever see "calves let loose from the stall?"  Or "cats let out to play for a few hours?"  Well, trust me, thats real joy.

        God be with you,

        Ray

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Kat

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2011, 06:26:36 PM »


And here is another email from Ray concerning the sun and moon as symbol.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4974.0.html ------

Because Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and the moon is the sign of the Son of Man, and the Sabbath is a sign (Exo 31:13, Eze 20:12), we should keep the Sabbath according to the phases of the moon! (Gen 1:14, Jer 31:35, Jer 31:36, Eze 22:26, Rev 2:17, Isa 66:23)

    COMMENT:  Nonsense, Johan!  Jesus Christ is NOT "the sign of the Son of Man," and "the moon is a symbol of Jesus" is unscriptural nonsense. Neither is "the sun a symbol of God."  Johan!  Most of the PAGANS AND HEATHENS used the sun as a symbol of God, but you won't find that in the Scriptures.  The moon is reflected light. Jesus is not the "reflected" light of Jesus  The light of the moon represents the truth given to the CHURCH. And that is why "the moon shall be turned to BLOOD."  The love of God given to the Church will be turned into hatred and evil and bloodshed by the Church.  it is sacrilege to associate Jesus with the moon.  The light of Jesus comes from WITHIN, it is not reflected by the moon:

    "And the city had NO NEED of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of GOD did lighten it, and THE LAMB IS THE LIGHT THEREOF" (Rev. 21:23)!  Yes, we need to "look up," but looking up in Scripture does not mean to look UP IN THE SKY AT THE SUN AND THE MOON, but to look up on HIGH, to SPIRITUAL things.


    During the crucifixion there was an eclipse of the Moon.

    COMMENT:  Nonsense, Johan.  An eclipse of the moon does not cause it to darken during the day.  And an eclipse of the sun which does cause it to darken during the day, last for only a few minuts, NOT FOR THREE WHOLE HOURS
    (Matt. 27:45)!


    (Mar 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.)

    The Moon has cast its shadow over the Earth. This also implies New Moon (Dark Moon) and high Sabbath!
    (Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.)

   COMMENT:  I'm afraid that statement is too convoluted to even comment on.  For a million dollars I could not tell you what the point of that statement is supposed to be. Sorry.  Your email is too long, Johan, I just don't have the time. Hope you understand.

    God be with you,

    Ray

« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 10:30:33 PM by Kat »
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Duane

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2011, 06:37:05 PM »

I once heard a message where scientist tried to disprove the Bible re; God haltingthe rotation of the earth at different times in the scripture
and it got down to a 15 or so sec.gap in time.  Then came a  scriptural reference for it so that ALL the stoppages of the sun equalled
EXACTLY 24 hours and tht is why we have a "leap year" every 4 years to make up the time God stopped the movement of the sun.
So EVERYTHING is literal and God is laughing at our ignorance of His power and greatness, again!
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daywalker

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2011, 07:31:24 PM »


Drew,

How does your theory of the Sun revolving around the Earth prove that the Sun literally "rises" and "sets"? Have you forgotten the the Earth is a sphere? Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake? How can the Sun literally "rise" and literally "set" if it is continually revolving around the circular Earth?

Daywalker  8)
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longhorn

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2011, 08:24:04 PM »

Pearl Jams song " Black " has a line " All five horizons revolve around the sun " so, that's what I'm going with and don't try to change my mind.

Longhorn
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Drew

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2011, 10:32:21 PM »


Drew,

How does your theory of the Sun revolving around the Earth prove that the Sun literally "rises" and "sets"? Have you forgotten the the Earth is a sphere? Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake? How can the Sun literally "rise" and literally "set" if it is continually revolving around the circular Earth?

Daywalker  8)


You've got me there, Daywalker, then it definitely comes back to ones perspective. I have to say, though, the theory does't belong to me. I read this in a Reconstructionist mag., which I can not remember the name of, whose founder was RJ Rushdoony. The article didn't have so much to do with rising and setting as with the earth being the center of our universe. I really never expected my post to garner this much discussion. Now I will have to go back and see if I can locate that article. Thinkers abound in this forum and this is a good exercise for me that I'm not being let off the hook. I'll get back with you after I do my research.

Drew
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Grace

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Re: The physical SUN
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2011, 11:36:15 PM »

Quote
Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake?

I'm sorry guys but, I'm going to take a break from the forums for awhile.  Thanks for all the ones who took the time to help me in here.  I can't handle this type of stuff.

Grace
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