The physical SUN

[Drew]

Hello again Daywalker,
Cursory research complete. Chalcedon was the mag. and Geocentrism is the theory but at this point I'm not out to prove a point. I think I remember a comment by Mr Smith to the effect that in his opinion science and scripture compliment; not detract. Wikipedia gives a pretty taut definition of the theory.  Once again, my intent for my initial post was to lend credibility to scripture and whether or not the sun is the center or the earth is the center it doesn't change what seems to have been established in this discussion; that the physical profits nothing but the spiritual does. I do hope all of this verbiage is not violating forum rules.

Drew

[Craig]

I can't handle this type of stuff

Grace what is there to handle?

These discussions are just the static on a bad radio station.  It is all vanity and flapping in the wind.  What if the world is flat or square or the moon is made of cheese?  What if the sun revolves around the earth or the moon? or it just sits still?  What if there was men before Adam?  What if...What if???   What does it matter?  Does this knowledge do anything to help us die to self? does it do anything to make us more Christlike?  Does it make us more humble? loving? patient? peaceful?  No, I don't think so, but it does expose the idols of our hearts or just puffs us up.  We want to be worthy of being messengers of our God, but we are shown that we are not worthy of being messengers to anything.  We look for the great spiritual meaning of a word or sentence in scripture and if we think we have found it we become special...Vanity, meaningless noise and babble. 

Grace, using my radio analogy, don't shut off the whole radio, just change the channel whenever the static gets bad. 

Craig

[longhorn]

Great analogy Craig.  I mean what does me burning my toast ( twice ) this morning, or the fact my cat Smokey decided the best place to throw-up was in my shoe really have to do with anything other than to tick me off and make me realize how much room I have for spiritual growth. 

Longhorn

[Rene]

I can't handle this type of stuff

Grace what is there to handle?

These discussions are just the static on a bad radio station.   It is all vanity and flapping in the wind.  What if the world is flat or square or the moon is made of cheese?  What if the sun revolves around the earth or the moon? or it just sits still?  What if there was men before Adam?  What if...What if???   What does it matter?  Does this knowledge do anything to help us die to self? does it do anything to make us more Christlike?  Does it make us more humble? loving? patient? peaceful?  No, I don't think so, but it does expose the idols of our hearts or just puffs us up.  We want to be worthy of being messengers of our God, but we are shown that we are not worthy of being messengers to anything.  We look for the great spiritual meaning of a word or sentence in scripture and if we think we have found it we become special...Vanity, meaningless noise and babble. 

Grace, using my radio analogy, don't shut off the whole radio, just change the channel whenever the static gets bad. 

Craig

Great analogy, Craig, and words of wisdom for those who have "ears to hear."

René

[DougE6]

Hello

Just to throw a small observation into the mix.  We know the axial rotation of the earth creates our periods of light and darkness, which we call days.  We all know know there is 365 1/4 (averaging leap years and normal years) days in a year.  SO how many times does the earth rotate on its axis, in a year?  365 1/4? Nope... 366 1/4!!!

Because the earth also rotates around the sun, even if it did NOT rotate on its axis at all, we would still have one apparent day, one sunrise, and one sunset, by virtue of the earth making this orbit around the sun.  Yet because the earth actually does spin on its axis, and this rotation is in the opposite direction to its orbit around the sun, this first axial spin, does, in effect, cancel out this first "orbital day", the first apparent day!  SO if the earth only rotated once in a year, the sun would stay in the same place in the sky the entire year, seem FIXED in position,  rather than having one sunrise and one sunset, due to the fact the earth rotates in opposition to its orbit.

We know the earth rotates one more time each year than its apparent days.  It rotates 366 times in normal years, and 367 times in leap years. This can only be true if the earth both orbits the sun and its spins on its axis. So yes, the earth does orbit the sun, and it does spin on its axis!

[daywalker]

Drew,

How does your theory of the Sun revolving around the Earth prove that the Sun literally "rises" and "sets"? Have you forgotten the the Earth is a sphere? Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake? How can the Sun literally "rise" and literally "set" if it is continually revolving around the circular Earth?

Daywalker 

You've got me there, Daywalker, then it definitely comes back to ones perspective. I have to say, though, the theory does't belong to me. I read this in a Reconstructionist mag., which I can not remember the name of, whose founder was RJ Rushdoony. The article didn't have so much to do with rising and setting as with the earth being the center of our universe. I really never expected my post to garner this much discussion. Now I will have to go back and see if I can locate that article. Thinkers abound in this forum and this is a good exercise for me that I'm not being let off the hook. I'll get back with you after I do my research.

Drew

I think Ray's conference on Creation and Noah's Flood has a lot to do with this, at least for me. I used to be one of those 'anti-scientist' type, who thought science was just out to destroy religion...I blame part of that on what I was told to believe all my days in Babylon. Thanks to Ray, and to God, I realize that most scientists are just trying to understand how things work--that they aren't all evil demons controlled by Satan. LOL

Daywalker 

[daywalker]

Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake?

I'm sorry guys but, I'm going to take a break from the forums for awhile.  Thanks for all the ones who took the time to help me in here.  I can't handle this type of stuff.

Grace

What exactly is wrong with that statement? I'd really like to know. thanks

Daywalker

[GaryK]

I can't handle this type of stuff

Grace what is there to handle?

These discussions are just the static on a bad radio station.  It is all vanity and flapping in the wind.  What if the world is flat or square or the moon is made of cheese?  What if the sun revolves around the earth or the moon? or it just sits still?  What if there was men before Adam?  What if...What if???   What does it matter?  Does this knowledge do anything to help us die to self? does it do anything to make us more Christlike?  Does it make us more humble? loving? patient? peaceful?  No, I don't think so, but it does expose the idols of our hearts or just puffs us up.  We want to be worthy of being messengers of our God, but we are shown that we are not worthy of being messengers to anything.  We look for the great spiritual meaning of a word or sentence in scripture and if we think we have found it we become special...Vanity, meaningless noise and babble. 

Grace, using my radio analogy, don't shut off the whole radio, just change the channel whenever the static gets bad. 

Craig

Finally.  Someone makes sense without the cloaking-up with a bunch of scriptural derivatives, numbers, and essays of diminished understanding.

We read Ray's hard work and.....all of the sudden.......we're hand-picked geniuses chosen for the quest of understanding all things God.

All these mental breakdowns over the most trivial unnecessaries.

The earth is flat?, the earth is round?, four corners or not?, does the sun sink or set?, did a snake really talk?.....who cares?

It is..... what it is.
We are who we are.
We stand where we stand.
We do what we do.
We've done what we've done.
We change when he changes us.
We see when he allows the sight.
We understand when he gives the understanding.

Grace and purpose.  God's grace and purpose in all things seen and unseen, from then to now and beyond. That's the simplest and most candid form of 'truth'.

gk

[daywalker]

So to refine my question further, how dumb or ignorant does a statement have to be by a Forum member before someone disagrees with them?  Does disagreeing with someone show lack of Godly love?

John,
I wasn't talking about the truth that was given in the post at all.  All you can do is give someone the truth of a matter and that's it.  It's up to God to open that truth up to them so they can see it.  My comment was made because of asking if Drew still believed the earth was flat as a pancake.  Now, anyone on this earth who has gotten access to the internet can find with overwhelming evidence that it is not flat.  Even if they are in the middle of the desert with no other life around them, if they have internet access they will find that out sooner or later.  So what was the point of throwing it in with the question, "Or perhaps you still think it's flat like a pancake?" 

That is why I posted my comments. It seemed to be a question with attitude and I really don't think I'm the only one here who has seen this happen before this particular post.   If I am wrong about that, I am sorry.  Forgive me for being too sensitive.  Only the one who posted it knows that for sure.  I personally could care less if it's flat, round, orange, purple, whatever.  In the scheme of things, it really doesn't matter.  Science is not the truth.  God's word is truth.  What I was trying to convey is that once you provide truth don't kill them while you're giving them truth.  If I ask a question in here, give me the answer if you have it but leave personal opinions out of it if you think my question was stupid, that's all I'm saying.   
Grace

Grace,

It's called sarcasm. Honestly, I'm a bit shocked that you were offended considering it was quite light in comparison with some of Ray's infamous lines from either his articles or his emails. Need I provide examples? I wasn't "jabbing" Drew, and based on his own response, he didn't appear to be offended by it. I wasn't LITERALLY asking Drew if he still thought the earth was "flat like a pancake"; I'm pretty confident he doesn't. It was just a lil humor to help make the point, it wasn't intended as a punch to the mouth.

Indeed, sometimes it's hard to judge one's motive when reading what they type as opposed to hearing them speak. Hope this helps clear the air.

Daywalker 

[mharrell08]

A good read (http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm):

SARCASM—OLD AND NEW

I have two favorite Scriptural sarcasms which I find to be sheer genius. One in the Old Testament, and one in the New. The first is from I Kings 18:21-39. Elijah told the people that they should choose two bullocks and place them on two altars of wood. He then said:

    "And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the Lord: and the God that answers by fire, let him be God"

They all agreed, and so the priests of Baal went first:

    "And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O BAAL, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they LEAPED upon the altar which was made.

    And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is on a journey, or peradventure he sleeps, and must be wakened.

I think we should read this verse from The Living Bible:

    "About noontime, Elijah began mocking them. 'You'll have to shout louder than that,' he scoffed, 'to catch the attention of your god! Perhaps he is talking to someone, or is out sitting on the toilet, or maybe he is away on a trip, or is asleep and needs to be wakened.'"

And the priests of Baal, being as stupid as stupid can be, obeyed Elijah's mocking sarcasm:

    "And they CRIED ALOUD... there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded."

Remember that God Himself inspired Elijah to mock the priests of Baal with these jeering and demeaning epithets. He went so far as to suggest that maybe their god was "sitting on the toilet" or so exhausted he "fell asleep." And they were too stupid to even know that Elijah was making public spectacles and fools out of them. But Christians assure me that God doesn't mock. Excuse me, but I did find this scenario IN THE BIBLE! And let's not forget this:

    "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration OF GOD [as in: 'Elijah began mocking them... perhaps he {the god of Baal}... is out SITTING ON THE TOILET], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (II Tim. 3:16).

This is not just Elijah taunting the priests of Baal; this is GOD HIMSELF telling Elijah under inspiration: Tell the priests of Ball that "...perhaps your god is out SITTING ON THE TOILET." God in heaven Himself inspired Elijah to speak that delightful phrase to these pagan priests. What a remarkable insight into the personality of God Almighty.

And ALL these events were preserved for us:

    "Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples: and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come" (I Cor. 10:11).


One can be compassionate while having thick skin...when dealing with carnality, it's actually essential. But God's Elect are not thin-skinned, pushovers. It's not the end of the world if one feels that way now, because it's literally not the end of the world. If Christ has begun a work in you, He will finish it. Just keep the faith.


Marques

[Duane]

Hey, you geniuses, what about my post about every minute being accounted for in the Bible for the missing day of leap year? 

I think that is quite amazing.  If my father were still alive I would ask him to recall each verse that made up the missing 24 hours.  Does God do things like that, and the "Big Dipper" that every nationality ever so primitive would recognize, just as a visual awareness that rational thought was/is behind creation?

I just watched the Discovery Channel re: earths creation and it's relationshio to the sun and how Jupiter
is the planet with the gravitational pull to keep foreign bodies from slamming into the earth, and how everything in the universe was so PERFECTLY arranged so that the earth could sustain life--and NOT ONE MENTION OF AN INTELLIGENT CREATOR!  "eyes are blinded to the truth".!!

[daywalker]

Hey, you geniuses, what about my post about every minute being accounted for in the Bible for the missing day of leap year? 

I think that is quite amazing.  If my father were still alive I would ask him to recall each verse that made up the missing 24 hours.  Does God do things like that, and the "Big Dipper" that every nationality ever so primitive would recognize, just as a visual awareness that rational thought was/is behind creation?

I just watched the Discovery Channel re: earths creation and it's relationshio to the sun and how Jupiter
is the planet with the gravitational pull to keep foreign bodies from slamming into the earth, and how everything in the universe was so PERFECTLY arranged so that the earth could sustain life--and NOT ONE MENTION OF AN INTELLIGENT CREATOR!  "eyes are blinded to the truth".!!

That's where we come in. 

[Samson]

I can't handle this type of stuff

Grace what is there to handle?

These discussions are just the static on a bad radio station.  It is all vanity and flapping in the wind.  What if the world is flat or square or the moon is made of cheese?  What if the sun revolves around the earth or the moon? or it just sits still?  What if there was men before Adam?  What if...What if???   What does it matter?  Does this knowledge do anything to help us die to self? does it do anything to make us more Christlike?  Does it make us more humble? loving? patient? peaceful?  No, I don't think so, but it does expose the idols of our hearts or just puffs us up.  We want to be worthy of being messengers of our God, but we are shown that we are not worthy of being messengers to anything.  We look for the great spiritual meaning of a word or sentence in scripture and if we think we have found it we become special...Vanity, meaningless noise and babble. 

Grace, using my radio analogy, don't shut off the whole radio, just change the channel whenever the static gets bad. 

Craig

Hi Craig,

I feel as if I owe an explanation for that comment.  It was not just this one particular comment that I'm referring to.  I realize I have a long way to go.  That realization comes every single day I wake up.  What I don't understand is that, after a person realizes this and humbles him/herself to errors they have in what they believe or have believed in the past and acknowledges this fact in front of God only knows how many reading this forum, why do some feel it is necessary to stick that final jab in?  They have already acknowledged their error, as Drew did in the previous post.  At least, it seemed to me he was responding well to correction and not arguing the point.  This has not just happened in this one post.  It has happened several times that I have seen.  It almost seems as if previous postings are not read before making a comment at times.  Even when the Samaritan took the guy who had been beaten and robbed to an inn to be taken care of, the priest who came by just went around him.  He didn't kick him as he was walking by, he simply ignored his condition. 

As I stated before, this is not just this one particular post and I'm not singling out only one comment in here.  I hesitated to even post this reply.  I may should have just left it as is and moved on but, I feel that I needed to give an explanation for my comment.  Others are not as far along as some in here spiritually and I don't think people are naive either.  Once a person acknowledges they understand a truth that is given to correct the errors in their belief, leave it alone.  Quit typing, unless it's to encourage them.  People are getting enough insults in the world without getting them in a place they come for answers.  We also don't have to justify ourselves all the time either.  NO ONE has arrived yet.  We are all in this together and it is God who justifies the righteous.  I'm not the forum police but I do know that when God has corrected me in the past, usually the person he uses to correct and make me feel ashamed doesn't even know they have been used for that purpose.

I apologize if I have hurt anyone and I won't say anymore.  I have expressed a personal opinion here and if it's wrong, I'm quite sure I will be corrected for that also.

Peace and Mercy,
Grace

Hi Grace,

I'm particularly tired, so maybe I shouldn't respond, but I'll venture in that direction anyway. The Sensitivity personality trait is one I certainly share with you, so I know where your coming from. The CAUSES both Genetically & Environmentally(Our experiences) are certainly contributing factors. Also, I've noticed that if I'm particular tired or having an especially bad day, it makes sense for me to type with caution or abstain, because under these circumstances(tired, irritable, low blood sugar or bad Day), I'm likely to snap. Also, if I'm in an emotionally high state, this can occur too. It's rare, but on occasion I've snapped at what I perceive as digs or jabs or wise crack remarks.

We have to ask God to help us discover the balance in all of this. My Dad was arrogant & sarcastic in an irritating way & sometimes at Age 88, He still is, maybe it's good for me that He lives in Naples, Florida. What I'm getting at, there must be a balance between the person that selfishly makes a snide remark deciding: " Well, it's my right to do so," in comparison with someone being overly sensitive & easily offended. It's My hope that God continues to help us attain the balance. I have reason to believe that the Apostle Paul wasn't an easy Chap to get along with, at times, remember, He was a Pharisee, from the Tribe of Benjamin and displayed a sharp burst of anger towards Barnabas regarding John Mark. Anyway, that's My 2 Cents or less, for what it's worth or not worth. And of course there is a big difference between being Ignorant and Stupid. Ignorance means you don't know the answer. Stupid means you know the right answer, but you still believe & follow the wrong answer,  .

                          Kind Regards, Samson.

[markn902]

I've noticed that if I'm particular tired or having an especially bad day, it makes sense for me to type with caution or abstain, because under these circumstances(tired, irritable, low blood sugar or bad Day), I'm likely to snap. Also, if I'm in an emotionally high state, this can occur too. It's rare, but on occasion I've snapped at what I perceive as digs or jabs or wise crack remarks.
                         

well put Samson I try and do the same as I have been guilty of remarks I wish that later I had not written down. I am sarcastic by nature so that doesn't help. I think I have been learning patience,among other things, and that has helped some. 

[JohnMichael]

I'm just going to respond in general. This has been a serious issue with me as well, Grace. In fact, I've had to take James 1:19-20 to heart here lately. It's the verse that says, "be swift to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger for the anger of men worketh not the righteousness of God." I take very seriously the warnings Christ gave about "offending one of His little ones." I also take very seriously when someone attempts to become a "smarter than thou/holier than thou" Pharisee in attitude. Maybe it's my life experiences that have made me that way because I'm used to being put down, condemned, called names, etc. It makes me all the more protective of others.

Sometimes I get the impression that there are those who have become so fixated on driving off the "wolves" that they appear to have lost the ability to discern a wolf from a babe. That is just my opinion, but that's how it appears to me.

As I said in a previous thread: LOVING correction is one thing. Brutal sarcasm and cold apathy are something entirely different. There's enough of those attitudes and cold-heartedness over in Babylon. Leave them over there.

I realize that everyone here is a work in progress, and I try to keep that in mind. I try to not get angry when I see someone kicking a person while he's/she's down. It's not easy because every fiber of my being ignites in righteous indignation and wants to fly to that person's defense. However, I also keep in mind that "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." I don't think anyone would disagree with the statement that WE ALL need God's mercy.

Maybe tempering judgment with a little more mercy would help overall.

Just my $0.02 though.

Grace, please don't let the rough experiences prevent you from partaking of the spiritual nourishment.

John

[Stacey]

If I ask a question in here, give me the answer if you have it but leave personal opinions out of it if you think my question was stupid, that's all I'm saying.

Grace, you may be sensitive but, your funny too! I couldn't resist, sorry, after all, what you said above was after you quoted John from Kentucky. We all know John comes off as being a little rough around the edges at times. I don't think he could keep personal opinion out of a response if he tried! That's just my opinion of course. 

It takes all kinds to make the world go round right? Grace, hope you don't leave the forum. Stick it out a little longer and it could get worse, er, I mean better. 

After all,

ISV, Eph. 6:12
For our struggle is not against human opponents, but against rulers, authorities, cosmic powers in the darkness around us, and evil spiritual forces in the heavenly realm. 

[Craig]

Post from Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13093.0.html

[Linny]

Craig, thanks for posting that. I have one question, hope it isn't a dumb one but I am not all with it today. Ray mentioned giving us a great scripture in the end of the email. Did I miss it? (which is clearly possible!)

Glad to see you Grace! I am like you, not ultra sensitive by any means and use sarcasm in my humor often (especially with hubby for really good zingers!) but not appreciative of its use to make anyone feel below anyone else. I also try to remember that when someone doesn't know me personally and I WRITE sarcasm, it is easily misinterpreted so I try to watch it carefully and use it sparingly if at all.

[Drew]

I'm going to be brief. Here's a great big hug for ALL you forum members (especially John from Kentucky and Daywalker,for being so brutal; I hope this warms your heads,hehe). One, among many, of my failures is that I comment before I get all the facts. I'm a slow learner. Hopefully being associated with y'all will accelerate the process. God be praised that He has gifted Mr Smith in the way that He has! His teaching is the reason we are congregating. Blessings to all.

Drew

[Craig]

A new post in this topic has been moved for moderator review.

*****************
After reviewing the post, it will stay removed.  Using this medium to post a rebuttal to what Ray has written is not the purpose of the forum.  The thread was over a year old, a rebuttal could have gone directly to Ray a year ago. I find is strange that it is posted after Ray is gone.  Normally we would tell a member to write Ray with any concerns or rebuttals; since that is not longer possible we can only remove these posts. None of the moderators have the mind of Ray and we will not get dragged into a debate. We have Ray's opinion on things with his writings.  You are not forced to believe anything he has written to be a member here.

I personally have no interest on this whole topic, and if any readers wish to refute anything Ray has written then I would recommend getting a domain name and refute away. If your views are of God then you will be successful, if not well....

Craig