Falling Away - Getting right the perspective

[tau]

Greetings

When one continues to read and re-read Ray's articles coupled with forum discussions at times I have an ongoing further discussions in my head and at times this goes on for so long that - sometimes, just sometimes i think i got it and move on, but then later i have nagging questions that don't seem to go till i can bring the matter to rest. So, having battled the perspective for a while I thought it best to nail my colours to the mask!

I love Phillipians!
Php 3:13  Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
v. 14  I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Ray speaks about 3 spiritual thruths in LOF 13&14 - Sea, Earth and Heaven. I understand the chronological order and the process involved - , as in  sea -moving from lack of God knowledge - (sand of the sea) - little understanding (being called out) - earth - a much better understanding - and heaven - spiritual destiny of the overcomers (the price towards which Paul urges us).

What i am then trying to understand (and i think i understand a little) is if in the story of the prodigal son, his falling away was when he sat and fed with the pigs and realised that he left is first true love, and if Peter's realisation was when he realised that he denied Jesus as predicted, and if Paul's realisation was when he had a lighting encounter while still Saul. If I was to say for me the realisation was when I thought i had made it BIG and my house of cards came tumbling down and realised that i have been arrogant thinking i can make it  in all my business planning and engagements, would that be right? At one point I thought i understood what God was all about (I had Him figured out!!) but that did not last!! So, is falling away a life altering experience that draws one to God (may be serious car accident which one survives) after which the person decides to seek God or is it seeking God and finally finding his real truth like say we have in BT/ then what about all those with life changing experiences that may still not know, or is there more to all this falling away. Once you are aware of how the devil works, it becomes  very much unlikely that he may deceive you, provided you are on a full time WATCH!! But what about all those sincere people out there that really believe in God?

[Kat]

Hi Tau,

Well to start with there is the 'first love' that we must come to. This is not when we come to the truth, but I see it as when we first come to a realization that Jesus Christ is real. This usually happens in church and we think of it then as being born again I guess. I remember it as a joyful feeling thinking that Christ was the Savior (though not having a real understanding of what that meant) but we are still blind at that point and in the 'sea' and very soon we do 'fall away' from this first love.

The way I see our 'falling away' is when we loose that new found joy of coming to Jesus Christ and get bogged down in... well anything else. I think with the prodigal son it was when he left his father house and went out into the world. Some are not devoted to serving in the church, maybe they attended just for show, but the cares of the world is of great importance to them. So their falling away is when work, job, family or any of the cares of the world supersede God. Most people remain here and never come to the truth in this life.

Paul (yes Jews) at some point in his life must have came to a knowledge that there truely is a God and felt a deep desire to serve and obey God. But he fall away when he became tangled up in serving the church, not God, to the point that he would seek out true believers and have them tortured and killed. Many of us fall away when we become caught up in the church duties and doctrines, so we are serving man or actually Satan, not God. This is when we are building our house on the sand, our house of cards. There are many that remain in this delusion/deception and are never brought to the truth, this is the many called. But for a few their house does fall and they are called out and their eyes opened.

You can see that this 'falling away' is usually a long process of 'falling away' before one has their eyes opened. I think I would say it was 25 yrs from my first love to when my house on the sand fail and then I think I went through several yrs of feeling no faith in the church or myself of ever coming to the truth. I felt so totally lost and worthless and then my eyes were opened.

So that's the sequence of events that happens as I see it. Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[JohnMichael]

My experience was 8 years between coming to Christ, my First Love and my house falling/me falling away. I lost all faith, and that lasted for 10 years. Then He stepped in and started to draw/drag me back.

I really like the illustration of Peter and Christ on the Sea of Galilee during the storm. As long as Peter kept his focus on Christ, he was able to overcome. When Peter let the cares of this world/trials/tribulations/sins (the spiritual storm) bog him down, he began to sink. Some people, who God preordained, come back up in this lifetime. Others do not, but they will before it's all said and done.

John

[tau]

Its amazing at times how little one really understand. Just when I I thought I understood, I realise I understand very little! So, if 'falling away' has to do with when one went to seek out God and did a 'found and lost' on Him due to the cares of this world, then how are we to REALLY know we have found him? I get that God is calling and choosing us according to his predestined 'programme', but since none of us can be sure whether we are making it in the first ressurection or not (I am not speaking about Peter's 'making your election sure'), I want to make sure I really understand when I say 'I found God' (or he found me) and REALLY know it (not mean it), what is that like. There was a period I used to question things of God to a point I would find material that supported my assertion, I then moved to being on the fence without really taking sides, then oneday out of nowhere I realised that something in me has changed, I no longer am on the fence on matters of God, I am now fully on His side, God's truth are absolute, there is no middle ground. From then onwards I had a thirst to seek out God, I now started reading and listening with understanding I never had before, for the first time in my life (atleast I think) I was sure that there had to be more to what God was all about than the little I was getting from the church, so the thirst drove me to seek Him out some more and I really started searching for his truth. It was only when I came to BT that I kind of stopped the search, many of my questions and presumptions were not only answered, many were blown away, I had to decided whether I accept the God truth as plain as it was given to me or mix it with my precarious church and individual understanding accumulated over the years, i decided on the former.

So, for my perspective then, and to make sure that one really understand how to press on towards the higher calling,  would that experience count for 'falling away' or am I still in the dark? I mean when I look back and see how much in darkness I have been, I thank God for his grace., 'i once was lost, but now i'm found, was blind, but now i see' ! Yes very good, BUT what is it that I now see? is it the fact that i cared more about worldly things, or the fact that i understood little of what God is all about? and even if I now understand, what does that really mean? But I do not want to be ignorant like Paul said some of us could be, and find that all the while I think I understand , I am still lost . So, if 'falling away' has to do with finding God and getting caught up in the cares of the world to only realise that you are lost, then how then do you know that you have 'fallen away'? would it be when one understand the truth as espoused here in BT or is it even deeper than that. I would like to think is important to run according to the rules, I don't want to find myself being likened to the 5 foolish virgins  !

[Kat]

Hi Tau,

So, if 'falling away' has to do with finding God and getting caught up in the cares of the world to only realise that you are lost, then how then do you know that you have 'fallen away'? would it be when one understand the truth as espoused here in BT or is it even deeper than that.

Well I don't think you can know it's happening (falling away) at the time it is happening, I believe you can only tell you fall away when you LOOK BACK. So once your eyes are opened to these truths, then you are able to look back and understand these things.

then oneday out of nowhere I realised that something in me has changed, I no longer am on the fence on matters of God, I am now fully on His side, God's truth are absolute, there is no middle ground. From then onwards I had a thirst to seek out God, I now started reading and listening with understanding I never had before, for the first time in my life (atleast I think) I was sure that there had to be more to what God was all about than the little I was getting from the church, so the thirst drove me to seek Him out some more and I really started searching for his truth. It was only when I came to BT that I kind of stopped the search, many of my questions and presumptions were not only answered, many were blown away, I had to decided whether I accept the God truth as plain as it was given to me or mix it with my precarious church and individual understanding accumulated over the years, i decided on the former.

To me what you were saying about how you felt when you started reading at the BT site should give you every reason to believe you have found the truth and Jesus Christ. Your own words express the great difference between how you struggled to find truth before you came here and then once you did how you didn't need to search anymore. Why did you stop searching? Because you knew this was it! And you know because the Holy Spirit puts it in your heart to know.

We all get a glimpse of Jesus when we first come to see He is real, that is our first love. But it is just a fleeting glimpse and we quickly get carried away by other things in life and that is when we fall away. So all those years of struggling in the darkness was when you had fallen away, you were still in darkness. But now you have come into His marvelous light/truth that's why you stopped searching. But now is no time to relax, because you want to show Him your good intention now that you are on the right course  

2Tim 2:15  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

merecy, peace and love
Kat

[G. Driggs]

You don't have to answer this Tau, but "looking back" now (like John did), can you see how you were a beast and a sinner? If so then this might help you understand that maybe you have found Him.

Rev 2:5 Then remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the first works. And if not, I am coming to you quickly, and will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Just like when the Prodigal Son realized he left his father (who loved him very much but never the less obliges his son) to live an sinful "free will" lifestyle and after realizing what a sinful beast he has been, he goes back to his father humbled with the intent of being an hired servant. His father sees his son coming back (repenting) afar off and with mercy and compassion runs to his son kisses him on his neck and gives his son the best robe, a ring and a fatted calf to celebrate.

So I guess my point is we can know when we found Him when we humble ourselves and repent of the way we used to believe and the way we used to live. The absolute truth is He comes to us, finds us and by His goodness causes us to repent.

Just wanted to add to Kat's great response, and give my 2 cents worth.

Peace,

G.Driggs

[tau]

G.D
I am not ashamed to answer that, if the position of the chief sinner is filled, is position two still open? ! I have done and said things in my life i will eternally be ashamed of, i cannot at times believe i could have been so cold and calculating (you know, being very selfish - the me first mentality regardless of who it hurts), what shames me more is at times i had a feeling i could have chosen differently from the choices i made, but some how, (like Pharoh) I hardened or my heart was hardened. So, now I review my ways carefully daily, I am forever on a watch out what i say, i am no longer dogmatic in views, i accept and ask as openly and as sincere as is humanly possible, i try not to be boastful, if i am told i am, i immediately apologies and accept the view that 'at times the doer is less aware of the injuries he can inflict on others', i really am trying to let God teach me humility and I want to keep on keeping on. Kat answers always amazes me, if she were a horse, i'd bet on her ! (don't do horses, don't how they play as well!!). So, I consider myself lucky, like Ray says somewhere in his teaching's 'we are no different from all these other people we consider to be bad, remove God's grace from us, we really become the beasts ourselves.' So, yes I know and not only have i repented, i do not feel it a load anymore and i really like my new self. I am on a watch out though, who knows what the devil might be up to, considering how long he has been around, i am sure his bag of tricks never runs out, after all - satan left Jesus only for a season after testing him. So, I guess the key word is to ENDURE TO THE END. I like saying to my wife, I hope oneday when I lay on my deathbed, I like Jesus could say, 'its finished" and like Paul, I kept the faith, I finished the course and now with faith I look forward to a promise, Heb 12:22-24 - is the most profound (for me) a scripture and it gives me goose pimples always when i read it!!. So, I now want to press on towards the price, knowing its the beast in me that needs to be tamed, Paul says every day he keeps his body under subjection, making sure it does what he wants, I think it a good idea to do the same. That bible verse Kat quotes in Rev, now make more sense than i initially understood. I always marvel at the signature quote of Dave Heb 10:32, so much wisdom and truth in those words, just wish at times the indurance could be lessened!!

Much appreciated.

[tau]

Sorry! my bad!! I meant to say G.D's quote!! on Revelation  !

[patmokgoko]

Hi Lion,maybe i am a bit out of order but i am burning to tell you about what i said at our meeting regarding the prodigal son.The prodigal son didn't wake up and chose to repent free willingly , no, he was caused by hunger.The elder brother in this parable is the "believer" who does not want the younger brother (unbeliever) to enter into the kingdom of the father,he (the believer) thinks he has worked (with his power and free will) to qualify.Dont you ever think that the prodigal son just got into the house smiling and laughing,no, first he was put to shame(then humility), again dont you dare think that the new and expensive  robe was just put on  top of his sweat(remember he was with pigs,he has been walking in the sun,so he must have been stinking.....and no unclean thing shall enter into the kingdom) so he was first washed with fuller's soap(lake of fire) because the Father is like refiner's fire.The father shows his unconditional love when he kissed him on the neck.Oh we have a problem with the elder brother who thinks the younger brother must die forever and ever and ever, but the father says he was dead but now he is alive(made alive) and was lost and is FOUND.
That is in a nutshell.

Sorry guys ,couldn't help but share!

[Grace]

Hi Lion,maybe i am a bit out of order but i am burning to tell you about what i said at our meeting regarding the prodigal son.The prodigal son didn't wake up and chose to repent free willingly , no, he was caused by hunger.The elder brother in this parable is the "believer" who does not want the younger brother (unbeliever) to enter into the kingdom of the father,he (the believer) thinks he has worked (with his power and free will) to qualify.Dont you ever think that the prodigal son just got into the house smiling and laughing,no, first he was put to shame(then humility), again dont you dare think that the new and expensive  robe was just put on  top of his sweat(remember he was with pigs,he has been walking in the sun,so he must have been stinking.....and no unclean thing shall enter into the kingdom) so he was first washed with fuller's soap(lake of fire) because the Father is like refiner's fire.The father shows his unconditional love when he kissed him on the neck.Oh we have a problem with the elder brother who thinks the younger brother must die forever and ever and ever, but the father says he was dead but now he is alive(made alive) and was lost and is FOUND.
That is in a nutshell.

Sorry guys ,couldn't help but share!

Thank you for sharing this Patmokgoko!  Sure makes sense to me!

Grace

[JohnMichael]

Pak,

That definitely lines up with all the parables being one - showing the many called vs the few chosen. The older brother (many called) in the Prodigal Son is self-righteous and arrogant in his attitude toward his younger brother (the few chosen). His heart's attitude is "How DARE Father accept him back in when he did this, this, and that?! [I've been here prophesying in His name, casting out demons in His name, etc, etc]. Let him be cast out forever!"

That attitude sound familiar?

John

[tau]

Beauty hey!! ,Pat, the 'Lion' is appreciative!!  !