Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[gmik]

I quoted that verse to a "rejoicer" at obl death--they replied---

well, he didn't turn from his wicked ways so God punished him.

(oh, forgot the scripture:  God doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather they turn from their wicked ways...)

My question?  Has Ray further discussed this?  Bcs the 2nd part of the verse implies the "wicked" person could have chosen to turn from his ways.

get it?  the wicked can CHOOSE to do better!

thats of course not what I think, but it was what got thrown back at me when discussing this verse w/ the aforementioned "rejoicer"...

Is there a good argument- Well, one that I can win- ?

[mharrell08]

It's always difficult explaining the sovereignty of God with people who cannot or will not distinguish a relative truth from an absolute one:

Excerpt from 12 God Given Truths to Understanding His Word (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm) [from truth#10]:

What then of all the supposed contradictions in Scripture? Below are a few examples of what many would call contradictions in the Scriptures:

THE RELATIVE:

THE ABSOLUTE:

" ...seek, and ye shall find... " (Mat. 7:7)    

"Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)

"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14)    

"God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)

" ...CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15)    

"Ye have NOT CHOSEN me, but I have chosen you... "(Jn. 15:16)

" ...whosoever doeth not righteousness is NOT of God... " (I Jn. 3:10)    

"ALL is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)

"Zechariah was righteous before God" (Luke 1:5-6).

"There is none righteous"(Rom. 3:10)

"Come unto Me…" (Matt. 11:28)

"None CAN come to Me…" (John 6:44 & 65)

To the carnal mind, the above Scriptures are contradictions, and therefore proof that the Word of God is not consistently true.

Even the greatest theologians in the world deny this truth that "All is of God," because they cannot distinguish the relative from man’s doings from the absolute which is God’s doing.

In the first example man is told to seek but is also told that no man seeks. Which is it? They are both true. No man does seek God except and until God brings about circumstances wherein he does seek God. But He only does seek God because "All is of God" who brings about the circumstances whereby someone who would not seek God, now does seek God.

In the second example we are told that God changes His mind [repents], but are also told that God is not a man who repents or changes His mind. The answers are all the same. Where it appears to many that God felt sorry for ever having created mankind, He is in reality doing only that which He had determined to do from the beginning. It is only from man’s perspective that God repented or changed His mind. God always knows the "end from the beginning," and therefore is never surprised or never thwarted or frustrated requiring a change in course or a change of plans.

A few years ago someone tried to trip me up with this verse:

    "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it neither came it into My mind" (Jer. 19:5).

Here, I was told, is absolute proof that God learns new things that He didn’t know before. Nonsense.

This is a simple problem of translating. The word translated "mind" in this verse is the Hebrew word leb, and it means the "heart with its feelings," not the mind. The King James very often confuses heart with mind and mind with soul, as if they were one and the same thing even though there are different words for each.

God’s plan and purpose for humanity consists of many, many things which are not after God’s own heart, but that are, nonetheless, absolutely essential for the completion of His plan:

    "Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezek. 33:11).

This is God’s HEART speaking in this verse. But in the MIND of God, the death of the wicked was absolutely necessary, and a prophesied fact that could not be avoided:

    "For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease, and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through" (Ver. 28).

This is but another of countless examples in Scripture that show God’s mind and His heart. God takes no pleasure or delight in His heart over the horrible things that continually happen to humanity, but nonetheless, these things are absolutely essential to the fulfillment of the plan that God has devised in His mind.

It is absolute blasphemy to think or teach that God is the Creator of all that is, but then takes zero responsibility for all the evils of that creation—ALL is of God.



As it's said in retail: You may win the argument, but you'll lose the sale 


Marques

[pylady]

Hi Gena

This image came into my mind when I read your post.  A father taking a naughty child by the hand and leading him (or dragging him) away from his naughtiness.
Teaching him while he's leading him why what he did was wrong.

Our heavenly Father takes our hand (spiritually) and drags us away from our sinful ways, teaching us to hate our evil ways.  He's leading us (dragging) but we are the ones that are turning from our wicked ways.

The child's father takes no pleasure in any punishment of his child, and our heavenly Father takes no pleasure in someones spiritually dead condition.

I know you know all this but maybe it could help your friend.

                Cindy 

[Dave in Tenn]

Nothing changes no matter what he or she believes.  God says He takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked.  What He TAKES PLEASURE in is the wicked turning and living.  Indeed, He takes pleasure in ONE sinner coming to repentance.  See Luke chapter 15 for proof.    

He or she may not be ready to believe that 'turning' and 'repentance' is garunteed.  God will TAKE ALL His good PLEASURE.   

Eze 33:11  Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Man, there is some deep stuff following that, not taught in your average Sunday School.

[Akira329]

Nothing changes no matter what he or she believes.  God says He takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked.  What He TAKES PLEASURE in is the wicked turning and living.  Indeed, He takes pleasure in ONE sinner coming to repentance.  See Luke chapter 15 for proof.    

He or she may not be ready to believe that 'turning' and 'repentance' is garunteed.  God will TAKE ALL His good PLEASURE.   

Eze 33:11  Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Man, there is some deep stuff following that, not taught in your average Sunday School.

I'm going to piggy back Dave, (Don't worry Dave I know I'm heavy but you can endure a little!! LOL)
Gena,
Don't forget this verse:
Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

[Kat]

Hi Gena,

Eze 33:11  Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

This verse to me expresses God real heart, as He does NOT have "pleasure in the death of the wicked." It is the way that it must be for now, but He does not take pleasure or enjoy seeing evil people die in their sins. He is saying that even though these things must be as they are right now, this is how He feels in His heart about what is happening in this world. Now I believe some people really think that God takes delight in punishing or even torturing wicked people, as is the teaching in the church about eternal torture in hell.

Now we know that God is the ultimate cause of all things, but this world right now is only a means to an end. He clearly states He takes "no pleasure" when people remain wicked until they die. But we know what our God of love desires and will ultimately bring about with absolute surety.

1Tim 2:3  This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
v. 4  who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[gmik]

 

awesome, awesome

I knew I would get some help here!!

Thanks everyone!