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difficult question on aion???
david1611kjv:
a friend of mine who likes to debate against universalism suggested that the below quotes prove the meaning of aion because the word is used in reference to how long God lives and so on, i am not 100% clued up on the ins and outs of this important word and was hoping some of you guys could shed some light on what at first glance looks to be a difficult question.....quotes below, thanks abunch :¬)
God who lives..."forever and ever" (eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn)
To God be the glory... "forever and ever" (eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn)
JohnMichael:
First, we're not going to change anyone's mind - just as we're not going to save anyone. God is the one who does the drawing/dragging, and God is the one who does the saving. I'm not saying that was your intent, but if it is, be careful. :)
In regard to these verses, the first a portion of Rev 15:7
(YLT)
Rev 15:7 and one of the four living creatures did give to the seven messengers seven golden vials, full of the wrath of God, who is living to the ages of the ages;
(WNT)
Rev 15:7 And one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven bowls of gold, full of the anger of God who lives until the Ages of the Ages.
The greek word translated "God" in that verse is "Theos," and it pertains to God the Father. God the Father, of course, is endless.
As to the second verse, Eph 3:21 & 1 Pet 5:11
(YLT)
Eph 3:21 to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.
(WNT)
Eph 3:21 to Him be the glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, world without end! Amen.
(YLT)
1Pe 5:11 to Him is the glory, and the power--to the ages and the ages! Amen.
(WNT)
1Pe 5:11 To Him be all power unto the Ages of the Ages! Amen.
Aion simply means "an age," and when there's something such as "(eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn)," it means Ages of the Ages. It doesn't translate into eternal although saying God the Father is eternal would definitely be correct.
Ray said something about this. Look at it this way. If Aion/Aionios meant eternal, then these verses would say "Eternities of the Eternities." Just how many "eternities" are there? I thought one pretty much covered it. :)
Hope this helps,
John
Grace:
--- Quote ---a friend of mine who likes to debate against universalism
--- End quote ---
Like JohnMichael says, "be careful"....
This is just something I'm learning (note: I say "learning"), not that I've learned it completely but, we shouldn't debate at all unless we have a "rock" solid foundation on something that we know that we know that we know to be true. If we try to argue something without that foundation we will be eaten alive. ;D ;D Ray states this in several of his papers and it is so true. Satan loves to have us for breakfast, lunch, dinner and snacks. I think he is already fat from my own contributions. With study, anything that's not true will be destroyed with scripture.
Grace
Drew:
John and Grace,
I'm listening too. I needed to be reminded of that "be careful". Too easy to fall into that trap of having all the answers RIGHT NOW.
Drew
Samson:
--- Quote from: david1611kjv on May 10, 2011, 09:21:01 AM ---a friend of mine who likes to debate against universalism suggested that the below quotes prove the meaning of aion because the word is used in reference to how long God lives and so on, i am not 100% clued up on the ins and outs of this important word and was hoping some of you guys could shed some light on what at first glance looks to be a difficult question.....quotes below, thanks abunch :¬)
God who lives..."forever and ever" (eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn)
To God be the glory... "forever and ever" (eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn)
--- End quote ---
Yes, it's true David,
Your not going to convince anyone against their Will. However, just because God is The Eonian God & is the God of the Ages doesn't mean He's limiting to the Ages. Ray said that a statement of Fact is not a statement of limitation. God is Eternal because He's Immortal(Athanasia) which means Deathless, so by extension He is Eternal, but the Word Aion & it's derivatives never mean Endless. Aion is an Age; Aions(plural) is Ages or Eons; Aionios & Aionian is the adjective meaning pertaining or belonging to the Ages or Eons. An adjective can't take on an entirely different meaning then the Noun it's derived from.
Also, as an example of a statement of fact not being a statement of limitation: If I stated that the people of the World are going to die, it automatically implies everyone. I don't have to say All of the people. However, if I stated that the people of the World are going to die, except the People of Australia, I've established an exception or a limitation to who's going to die.
Also, the Scriptures state that God is a Jealous, that doesn't mean He's limited to just being Jealous exclusively. Some good points about Aion expressed by John Michael's Post.
Hope this helps, Samson.
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