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[david1611kjv]

a friend of mine who likes to debate against universalism suggested that the below quotes prove the meaning of aion because the word is used in reference to how long God lives and so on, i am not 100% clued up on the ins and outs of this important word and was hoping some of you guys could shed some light on what at first glance looks to be a difficult question.....quotes below, thanks abunch   :¬)


God who lives..."forever and ever" (eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn)

To God be the glory... "forever and ever" (eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn)

[JohnMichael]

First, we're not going to change anyone's mind - just as we're not going to save anyone. God is the one who does the drawing/dragging, and God is the one who does the saving. I'm not saying that was your intent, but if it is, be careful.

In regard to these verses, the first a portion of Rev 15:7

(YLT)
Rev 15:7  and one of the four living creatures did give to the seven messengers seven golden vials, full of the wrath of God, who is living to the ages of the ages;

(WNT)
Rev 15:7  And one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven bowls of gold, full of the anger of God who lives until the Ages of the Ages.

The greek word translated "God" in that verse is "Theos," and it pertains to God the Father. God the Father, of course, is endless.

As to the second verse, Eph 3:21 & 1 Pet 5:11

(YLT)
Eph 3:21  to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

(WNT)
Eph 3:21  to Him be the glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, world without end! Amen.

(YLT)
1Pe 5:11  to Him is the glory, and the power--to the ages and the ages! Amen.

(WNT)
1Pe 5:11  To Him be all power unto the Ages of the Ages! Amen.

Aion simply means "an age," and when there's something such as "(eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn)," it means Ages of the Ages. It doesn't translate into eternal although saying God the Father is eternal would definitely be correct.

Ray said something about this. Look at it this way. If Aion/Aionios meant eternal, then these verses would say "Eternities of the Eternities." Just how many "eternities" are there? I thought one pretty much covered it.


Hope this helps,
John

[Grace]

a friend of mine who likes to debate against universalism

Like JohnMichael says, "be careful"....

This is just something I'm learning (note: I say "learning"), not that I've learned it completely but, we shouldn't debate at all unless we have a "rock" solid foundation on something that we know that we know that we know to be true.  If we try to argue something without that foundation we will be eaten alive.   Ray states this in several of his papers and it is so true.  Satan loves to have us for breakfast, lunch, dinner and snacks.  I think he is already fat from my own contributions.  With study, anything that's not true will be destroyed with scripture.

Grace

[Drew]

John and Grace,
I'm listening too. I needed to be reminded of that "be careful". Too easy to fall into that trap of having all the answers RIGHT NOW.

Drew

[Samson]

a friend of mine who likes to debate against universalism suggested that the below quotes prove the meaning of aion because the word is used in reference to how long God lives and so on, i am not 100% clued up on the ins and outs of this important word and was hoping some of you guys could shed some light on what at first glance looks to be a difficult question.....quotes below, thanks abunch   :¬)


God who lives..."forever and ever" (eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn)

To God be the glory... "forever and ever" (eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn)

Yes, it's true David,

Your not going to convince anyone against their Will. However, just because God is The Eonian God & is the God of the Ages doesn't mean He's limiting to the Ages. Ray said that a statement of Fact is not a statement of limitation. God is Eternal because He's Immortal(Athanasia) which means Deathless, so by extension He is Eternal, but the Word Aion & it's derivatives never mean Endless. Aion is an Age; Aions(plural) is Ages or Eons; Aionios & Aionian is the adjective meaning pertaining or belonging to the Ages or Eons. An adjective can't take on an entirely different meaning then the Noun it's derived from.

Also, as an example of a statement of fact not being a statement of limitation: If I stated that the people of the World are going to die, it automatically implies everyone. I don't have to say All of the people. However, if I stated that the people of the World are going to die, except the People of Australia, I've established an exception or a limitation to who's going to die.

Also, the Scriptures state that God is a Jealous, that doesn't mean He's limited to just being Jealous exclusively. Some good points about Aion expressed by John Michael's Post.

                         Hope this helps, Samson.

[Extol]

Hi David,

Read Ray's paper Is Everlasting Scriptural? http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

Just because God lives "for the ages" does not mean he will not live longer than the ages. You could say "God will live for the next thousand years", and it would be a true statement, even if someone might incorrectly assume that it means he will STOP living after the thousand years. Your friend is not taking the sum of God's Word (Psalm 119:160), but only a piece here and a piece there. When we look at the sum, we know that God will live forever; saying that God lives for the ages does not contradict the fact that there shall be no end to his kingdom, and the increase of his government and peace (Luke 1:33, Isa. 9:7); nor does it negate all of the hundreds of Scriptures which speak of the salvation of all.

Here are a couple of excerpts:

        Dr. F. W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Word of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198), "That the adjective is applied to some things which are ‘endless’ does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant ‘endless;’ and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd."

I have argued this point for years. Just because a word translated WRONGLY can still make sense does NOT justify doing so. Perchance someone might wish to translate Mark 9:41 as follows: "For whosoever shall give you a GLASS OF ICE COLD LEMONADE to drink in my name… shall not lose his reward." Does not the verse make equal SENSE as when it is correctly translated "A CUP OF WATER?" Yes it does, but that is NOT what the Holy Spirit inspired to be preserved for us. Hence, "a glass of ice cold lemonade" is wrong, just as translating Rom. 16:26 as "the everlasting God," is wrong. The Holy Spirit inspired the word aionios, which translated to our English equivalent "eonian," and this is how it must be translated if we are to be faithful to God’s Word.

Here are just a few scriptures in which "aionios" cannot possibly mean ETERNAL:

1. Rom. 16:25—"…according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world [Gk: aionios] began." You have attempted time and again to set up a straw man by insisting that if "aionios" is "eonian," then it must be changed to a noun and translated as "of the ages." Well check this bit of translating genius out. We have the ADJECTIVE word "aionios" and the KJV translators changed it to a NOUN, "world."

Well guess what? The word "world" (kosmos) is not found in this verse, furthermore, neither is the word "began." The Greek reads: "…in times eonian." Do we really believe in "times eternal." What does "time," let along "timeS" have to do with "eternity?" And as Paul speaks of the "revelation" of this secret, how could it EVER be revealed if it was kept secret ‘ETERNALLY?’ Do you not see a problem—a CONTRADICTION in all of this?

2. II Thes. 2:16—"…and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace." "Console" is defined as, "To allay sorrow or grief of." "Hope" is defined as, "To wish for something with expectations of its fulfillment." Now then, according to this inane KJV translation of this verse, just how long are we going to have our "SORROW AND GRIEF ALLAYED?" How long must we "HOPE" before we have our hope fulfilled? For ALL ETERNITY? Nonsense.

3. II Tim. 1:9—"…according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." The word "world" is not found in the Greek manuscripts, the word "began" is not found in the Greek manuscripts. Here is what the Greek says: "…before TIMES EONIAN." So where is the consistency with these translators? Could they not deceive the readers by translating this verse properly? If "aionios" means "eternal" or "evermore" then HOW, pray tell, can there be "TIMES" "BEFORF" "ETERNITY?" Give me a break. This is not translating; this is out and out planned deception! They change an adjective into a noun, then change the noun to a different word, then completely leave out the word "times." This total lack of scholarship and honesty is reprehensible!

4. Jude 7—"Even as Sodom and Gomorha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." The Greek reads: "…experiencing the justice of fire eonian." Well just how long does this "eonian/aionios fire last? Is it really "eternal" as the Authorized Version and you, contend?

            A.      There is NO FIRE burning in Palestine since the days of Sodom anywhere, let along in the vicinity of these ancient cities. The best archaeologists can discern, Sodom is located at the bottom of what is now a sea.

            B.      Ezekiel 16:55—"When your sisters, SODOM and her daughters, shall RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then you [Jerusalem] shall return to your former estate."

The judgment of God against Sodom was decidedly not, ETERNAL. Here is clear Scriptural evidence and proof that "olam/aion/aionios," etc., DO NOT MEAN ETERNAL OR ENDLESS TIME. Give it up, Walter. The doctrine of "eternal torture" is the most evil doctrine, teaching, or concept ever invented in the history of the universe. It is the MOST blasphemous thing that could ever be attributed our Lord and Father. Give it up!

[JohnMichael]

David,

I had a similar experience happen last night. It was over a different subject, but the concept is the same.

My brother had just returned from a Pentecostal bible study over speaking in tongues. I was trying to warn him to not be deceived. I wasn't talking to him from a position of "I'm right, and you're wrong." I was trying to help him. I told him of the scriptures that deal with the gift of speaking in tongues, and that the scriptures put guidelines on the use of this gift.

During the course of this conversation, my brother got very quiet and fidgety. Even though it was dark outside, I know his body language well enough to know when he's furious about something. He was angry at me. At that point in our conversation last night, God put the impression on me that, "That's enough, John. Be quiet." I stopped talking about it, and I just sent him Ray's paper on Speaking in Tongues. If God leads him to read it, he will. It not, so be it. Either way, God's Will will be done. His fiancee confirmed this morning that he was indeed angry and disagreed with me.

The concept is that we aren't going to change anyone's mind - no matter how hard we try. God has to put the desire for the Truth in someone's heart. If the desire isn't there, you can shout the Truth from the rooftops, and it will fall on deaf ears.

John

[david1611kjv]

excellent responses guy's, cleared some of this up for me..............i am trying harder these days to stop myself being involved in these debates with people but it's difficult(out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks i spose), like yourself i have family in orthodox churches and to watch them follow in fear is very frustrating, i know we are to merely have an answer for the hope that is in us but when people down my beliefs, what about contending for the faith aswell???its a tough balance, its all very perplexing in the early stages of understanding these things...............grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr    thanks again chaps and chapettes:¬)

[gmik]

Good thread and I agree.

I just posted Ez 33:11 for a new thread.  Please read.

I AGREE we canNOT drag anyone to Christ.  Sometimes I am hoping to be a seed along their path tho.


 So I do try to talk once in awhile to someone OR ususally, its someone drawing me out to show me how wrong I am.

If I would trust HIM more, the Holy spirit, will lead me to talk or not talk....sometimes I am just not listening!

[Duane]

Wouldn't it be great if people were as eager to LEARN as they were to ARGUE?
Only God can open people minds to WANT to accept the truth by DRAWING their minds to WANTING to know more.  It is easier to get angry than to learn, but MAYBE God uses anger or hardness of the heart to keep people blinded from knowing the truth until He CHOOSES them to be accepting.
It amazes me as to how angry and rude people are in responding to Ray rather than reading his writings further to see if MAYBE they can LEARN anything!!