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What exactly is heaven?
Grace:
I posted something earlier today about dying and heaven and didn't want to take over someone else's thread so I decided to start another one. I realized after reading several things on the thread that I must not be understanding or getting a complete picture of this so I removed my post so that no one would be deceived from my errors. I would like for someone to help me understand that heaven is spiritual and that it's in our minds? But Ray says God's heaven is not in our minds? is that correct? So is the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom Heaven two different things? and do we physically die here on earth and wake up here on earth, only when we awake we are in a spiritual body on earth? or what?.....I think I am not understanding the concept of what happens after conversion and judgement. Can you help me? I would appreciate the ones who stick to Ray's teaching on this subject to help me see more clearly this picture and not have anything from outside of this brought in if that is ok. Some of this is all new to me. I have wondered about this from scriptures I had seen on studying on my own but never got a clear picture of it. Of course when I brought it up to a friend of mine the first thing he did was pooh poohed my thoughts on it and say that the earth and heavens literally are going to rolled up like a scroll and will be no more soooo....if that's true....where will the new heaven, new Jerusalem be? and where will the ones who are not judged in this age be judged? Please help me understand all this and please be patient with me. I have a medical problem that keeps me from concentrating on things at times and absorbing them so if I can't get it into my spirit today, tomorrow I may feel fine and have no symptoms so that it opens up clearly. I would just like to hear it here so that I don't get lost searching so much in so many different places, if that makes sense....
Thanks for you help!!
Grace
Grace
dave:
You hold on to your questions for awhile and read Rays writings, study the LOF series. After some reading and studying Im sure a good many of your wonderings will be clearer to you.
Akira329:
Hi Grace,
I hope to keep this simple as Ray has not expounded on the subject as yet.
--- Quote ---I would like for someone to help me understand that heaven is spiritual and that it's in our minds? But Ray says God's heaven is not in our minds? is that correct?
--- End quote ---
Here are a few quotes from Ray:
"Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock."
I believe this is the scripture Ray is referring too:
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
"God's heaven is a higher spiritual realm of life and existence, not a geographical location in outer space."
There are neither children NOR adults in heaven. There is no Scripture that
tells us that there are humans in heaven, or that anyone will ever "go to heaven." Heaven
is not a geographical location where we can travel to. Heaven is a realm--a much higher
realm than humanity in their carnal, earthly state. Salvation has to do with becoming
like Jesus Christ, not traveling to some different location in the universe.
God be with you,
Ray
"Heaven" has several meanings, as well as the fact that there are multiple "heavens." "In the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth" according to the Hebrew.
When God refers to Babylon or Capernaum as being lifted up to "heaven," it is not referring to God's throne, but merely as being "high," "lofty," "exalted," etc. Jesus, however, came out of the "heaven" of His Father's realm, not high up in the sky or from outer space.
God be with you,
Ray
Grace I hope you can glean from his quotes that heaven is a realm or a state of mind or a state of existence/being
--- Quote ---So is the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom Heaven two different things?
--- End quote ---
They are same
--- Quote ---do we physically die here on earth and wake up here on earth, only when we awake we are in a spiritual body on earth? or what?
--- End quote ---
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Not everyone will physically die but will be changed instantly.
Look to Christ as an example of the Resurrection.
Grace, when we awake we will be in a different state of existence and its not clear what this is.
Again, Christ would be the example of a glorified spiritual body. Read about some of the things Christ did while in his resurrected body.
John 20-21
Luke 24
As Ray say's scripture is fairly silent on the subject of our future spiritual lives.
--- Quote ---.where will the new heaven, new Jerusalem be?
--- End quote ---
Again, not a place of geographical location.
New Heaven = new mind, new state of existence
New Jerusalem = new kingdom, new church, we are/will be new Jerusalem; neither of which are in some place.
--- Quote ---where will the ones who are not judged in this age be judged?
--- End quote ---
When resurrected there is one of two places (places used loosely) you can be, with Christ or on earth
Its best to read as much of Ray's material as you can.
A good place for you to start is with the Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm
Also, PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html
Also Gospel of the Kingdom
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html
Grace you asked some very involved questions for a thread response, nevertheless I have no doubt they will be soon be answered.
I hope what I provided so far helps direct you,
Antaiwan
Dawidos:
Hi Grace
You must understand that in this present time you will never receive a satisfying definitive answer. Why is that? Because when somebody tries to describe "the heaven" he still uses "fleshly" words from our world. Of course these are words with deeper abstract understanding like spirit, realm, higher existence etc, but you will probably not find the right words to describe this "new world". That's way the Bible is shredded in mystery on this matter.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
We all don't have mind in this age to comprehend this future reality.
And we mustn't forget this Scripture below is true.
But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Akira329 on May 15, 2011, 02:21:31 AM ---Here are a few quotes from Ray:
"Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock."
I believe this is the scripture Ray is referring too:
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
--- End quote ---
I think Ray may have changed his thinking in regards to this verse:
Excerpt from March 2011 Bible Study 'Are you Afraid of God?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153):
COULD JESUS BE IN HEAVEN BEFORE HIS RESURRECTION?
So Jesus Christ as a little boy didn’t go to heaven… is there any way we can find out was He ever in heaven? Is there a Scripture anywhere that says… there’s nothing in the Bible that says between, let’s say, age of 12 and 30 before His ministry actually started, that He went to heaven sometime or that He took a Sabbatical. But do we have a Scripture that says that He did go to heaven? [Comment: we have one that says He came from heaven.] Yeah there are several, I came down from heaven. Do we have one that says He went to heaven? [Comment: Don’t John 3:13 say that?] [Comment: After His death.] After His death He went to heaven, yes.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven…
Who said John 3:13? Does that say He went to heaven? [Comment: He was the only one that went to Heaven that came down from heaven.] Okay I have it right here.
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
v. 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Well “which is in heaven” Tischendorf says that is not in any original manuscripts. Scratch which is in heaven, it should end with Son of man, period.
But we always look at that Scripture to prove that nobody went to heaven. They say, ‘you die and go to heaven.’ Christ said nobody went to heaven. ‘Yeah, Abraham was in heaven.’ No he wasn’t, Christ said no man has ascended into heaven.
This one people read right over it, but this one also says, “He that came down from heaven.” He that came down from heaven, what? He’s the same One that went up. Let’s read it.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, BUT HE (what?)… that came down from heaven,
He that came down He ascended up to heaven. He was not dead yet, this was BEFORE the resurrection! This was in His ministry. So here is a Scripture that says , He went to heaven before He died or His resurrection. He came down from heaven and He said the same one that came down, that’s the One that ascended up! Most people read over that, but it is there, it does say it.
I think it's hard for any of us to describe something that none of us have experienced. Even Paul experienced a little and he could not fully describe it.
The best metaphor I can think of is from the movie The Matrix. When the character Neo was 'resurrected', he could see what the Matrix was really made of, computer coding. I think dwelling in heaven/being a spiritual being is like living in that computer code that makes up the physical world we see. Kind of like being in the back stage of a play. You know all the inner workings of the universe but are also able to present oneself onto the 'main stage', which is our current physical reality. Just a thought....
Marques
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