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What exactly is heaven?

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Kat:

Hi Gena,


--- Quote ---DOING the word and not just believing and hearing...is that the key to the first resur.? 
I don't think so. HE holds the key and I think it is already a done deal.
--- End quote ---


That which I put in bold print is certainly true.

Eph 1:4  according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

So His plan has already determined who would be His Elect and when and where and at what time they will be born, it is a "done deal." But we have to live out His plan for us and of course He has His hand in everything that happens in our lives. But the most profound thing that changes everything and turns us into "doers" is when the Holy Spirit is given us!

John 14:26  But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

Gal 3:5  Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working powerful works in you...

Before the Spirit becomes indwelling everything we do has some degree of self interest, it is only by His Spirit working in us that we can do anything good. It is by His Spirit that we will become "doers of the word" in whatever way He sees fit.

James 1:22  But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Gal 6:9  But we should not lose heart in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not faint.
v. 10  So then as we have time, let us work good toward all, especially toward those of the household of faith.

Now I do not look on our 'works' much in the way as the church does. They think of it as going out and 'doing' and they will be seen by men to recieve praise. I'm not saying it is bad to help other, goodness no, but without God's Spirit it's always a selfish work people do.

Mat 23:5  They do everything so that people will see them. Look at the straps with scripture verses on them which they wear on their foreheads and arms, and notice how large they are! Notice also how long are the tassels on their cloaks!

Mat 6:2  "So when you give something to a needy person, do not make a big show of it, as the hypocrites do in the houses of worship and on the streets. They do it so that people will praise them. I assure you, they have already been paid in full.

I look at the "fruit of the Spirit" or putting on the "new man," which is displayed in our attitude and how we act towards others that is the 'works' we are being judged for right now.

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
v. 23  meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
v. 24  But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
v. 25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Marky Mark:

--- Quote ---I'm not sure it's a safe assumption that one will be made perfect immediately in the First Resurrection. It takes great time to be perfect, as only God is perfect. I don't see that happening in the time it takes to bring one out of the ground or to 'change them' in a twinkling of an eye [1 Cor 15:51-52].
--- End quote ---


Hey Marques.I found this and did a follow up with some Scripture on the subject of perfection.

Hope this helps some...


http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

BECOMING PERFECT

Jesus Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS, and that accomplishes the SALVATION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, because God will eventually bring every creature in HEAVEN AND IN EARTH to repentance and humble submission to Jesus Christ (Phil. 2:9-11, Rom. 10:9, I Cor. 15:25). But forgiving sin, pardoning sin, justifying our sinful past, or even redeeming our bodies and giving us incorruptible and immortal bodies, does NOT make us perfect in deed and character!

God is PERFECT! And God wants His children to BE PERFECT! And believe it or not God WILL ... MAKE ... US ... PERFECT!

"He [God] chooses us in Him [Christ] before the disruption [foundation] of the world, we to be HOLY and FLAWLESS [PERFECT] in His sight..." (Eph. 1:4).

"You, then, shall be PERFECT as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mat. 5:48).

"I in them, and Thou in Me, that they [that’s US] may be made PERFECT in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me" (John 17:23).

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man PERFECT in Christ Jesus" (Col. 1:28).

People are quick to say, "Well, NOBODY is perfect." That’s not true:

"For it became HIM, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many [that’s us and the rest of the world] sons unto glory, to make the CAPTAIN of their salvation PERFECT [how?] Through SUFFERING" (Heb. 2:10).

Yes, maybe no one but Christ is perfect now, but it won’t always be that way. Paul knew that it was a process and that it would be ultimately God’s achievement:

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12).

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; For the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS..." (Eph. 4:11-12).

Say, did you notice that Christ was perfected through "SUFFERING?" Are we not to bear our own Cross? If they hated and persecuted Christ, will they not do likewise to us? Do we think the Scripture says in vain,

"Herein is our love made PERFECT, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He [Christ] IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I Jn. 4:17).

GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE

God has a way of making imperfect people perfect. It is called FIRE! Whether purging or clearing a garbage dump, or refining gold and silver, there is nothing like the purifying, purging, and perfecting power of FIRE!



 
Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Php 3:10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15  Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Jas 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Jas 1:12 Happy is the man who is enduring trial, for, becoming qualified, he will be obtaining the wreath of life, which He promises to those loving Him."

1Co 2:6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Luk 6:40  The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 3:9  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Rev 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Eph 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.




Peace...Mark

mharrell08:
Thanks Mark...and even reading the scriptures and other teachings, I still feel that perfection takes more than our lifetimes to achieve. The passages you referred speak of us becoming perfect which I have no doubt. But I don't think it's a wise assumption that this will be accomplished in the twinkling of an eye. I just think it takes time, God's time.

Deborah-Leigh:


--- Quote from: mharrell08 on May 19, 2011, 12:38:33 PM ---time, God's time.

--- End quote ---


"There are two twin brothers. On their thirtieth birthday, one of the brothers goes on a space journey in a superfast rocket that travels at 99% of the speed of light. The space traveller stays on his journey for precisely one year, whereupon he returns to Earth on his 31st birthday. On Earth, however, seven years have elapsed, so his twin brother is 37 years old at the time of his arrival. This is due to the fact that time is stretched by factor 7 at approx. 99% of the speed of light, which means that in the space traveller’s reference frame, one year is equivalent to seven years on earth. Yet, time appears to have passed normally to both brothers, i.e. both still need five minutes to shave each morning in their respective reference frame.

Still, we are hardly able to visualise this spacetime continuum, or deal with it in practical terms, because human consciousness is bound to the human body, which is in turn bound to a single reference frame. We live within the confinements of our own spacetime cubicle.

In a way, Einstein has freed our minds from the spacetime cubicle....." http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/timedilation.html

mharrell08:

--- Quote from: Arcturus on May 19, 2011, 01:46:24 PM ---"There are two twin brothers. On their thirtieth birthday, one of the brothers goes on a space journey in a superfast rocket that travels at 99% of the speed of light. The space traveller stays on his journey for precisely one year, whereupon he returns to Earth on his 31st birthday. On Earth, however, seven years have elapsed, so his twin brother is 37 years old at the time of his arrival. This is due to the fact that time is stretched by factor 7 at approx. 99% of the speed of light, which means that in the space traveller’s reference frame, one year is equivalent to seven years on earth. Yet, time appears to have passed normally to both brothers, i.e. both still need five minutes to shave each morning in their respective reference frame.

Still, we are hardly able to visualise this spacetime continuum, or deal with it in practical terms, because human consciousness is bound to the human body, which is in turn bound to a single reference frame. We live within the confinements of our own spacetime cubicle.

In a way, Einstein has freed our minds from the spacetime cubicle....." http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/timedilation.html
--- End quote ---


I don't believe learning to be perfect in character is any way similar to traveling. If a sinner can travel at the speed of light, it doesn't change the fact they are a sinner. Just a very fast one.  :D

At the 2008 conference, Ray went over how much 'work' it took for God to bring about creation...how it took God considerable time. And that was just to create something else, God was already perfect from the start.

Who here can honestly judge themselves and feel as though they are in any way close to perfection? We all may be closer than where we were some time ago, but thinking of the awesome character of our Father in Heaven, it seems we all have some considerable time to go. There's just no such thing as 'instant perfection', it's an oxymoron, it doesn't exist. And it's very humbling to realize as well.

But these are just some thoughts I had on the subject, not looking for a debate or anything.


Marques

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