What exactly is heaven?

[One Love]

But I was referring the the Elect that would be perfected when they come up in the first resurrection

Hey Kat
Warning: Do not take this personally, you always inspire me.
This is an insert from one of Mr. Smith's papers: Maybe a liitle offtopic here,

If you do not 'do unto others as you would have them to do unto you,' you are yet carnal.  Now we could give a whole talk on that... do unto others. 

If you do not "turn the other cheek" (Mat. 5:39) ... you are yet carnal. 

If you do not "humble yourself" (Dan. 10:12) ... you are yet carnal. 

If you do not "...deem one another superior to one's self" (Phil. 2:4 CLV) ... you are yet carnal.

If you do not "pray without ceasing" (1Thes. 5:17)... you are yet carnal.

If you do not "but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God" (Phil. 4:6) ... you are yet carnal.I could go on for hours and hours.  EVERYTHING in the Scriptures that admonish you personally, you must obey and follow or "ye are yet carnal."

Where are we going to find these elects or the few when scripture says none is righteous and
none can please GOD.

[Marky Mark]

Where are we going to find these elects or the few when scripture says none is righteous and none can please GOD.

It would seem that if we believe the Lord through faith it shall be counted as righteousness.

Gen 15:6  And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Heb 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


Our righteousness shall also come by obeying Jesus' commandments and sayings.

Deu 6:25  And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Psa 119:172  My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Luk 6:46  And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Mat 19:17  ...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.



Peace...Mark

[Kat]

Hi Gordon,

Where are we going to find these elects or the few when scripture says none is righteous and none can please GOD.

The Scripture does speak of a few/chosen/elect people that God will have made ready in this life to be the Elect and Christ will gather at His return.

Mark 13:20  And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, whom He has chosen, He has shortened the days.

Mat 24:30  And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
v. 31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Those few/chosen/elect are not the righteous of the world, quite the opposite.

1Co 1:26  For you see your calling, brothers, that not many wise men according to the flesh are called, not many mighty, not many noble.
v. 27  But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
v. 28  and God has chosen the base things of the world, and things which are despised, and things which are not, in order to bring to nothing things that are;
v. 29  so that no flesh should glory in His presence.

It's only by His Spirit indwelling that there is any good in any of us.

Rom 8:10  But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
v. 11  If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.


Well Marques, I guess it's not clear if those raised will be perfect right away. Paul does say it was not in this life he would be made perfect and seemed to indicating it was at resurrection that he was expecting that. But that's an assumption I made.

Php 3:12  Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may apprehend that for which also I was apprehended by Christ Jesus.

The elect will sit on Christ's throne with Him, a position of authority, to reign with Him.

Rev 3:21  To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

But I do understand that this make not happen instantaneously, I guess it might take us a little time to get used to our wings  

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[One Love]

Hey kitty Kat & marky mark
I was just trying to clear up the quote by Markus:

I'm not sure it's a safe assumption that one will be made perfect immediately in the First Resurrection

[gmik]

Gordon, I just read that same paper from the Mobile conf. of 2009 about "are ye yet carnal".

Gosh, it sure puts it out there-especially the cheerful giver part.

I can not do all of those things-so unless God leads me to do them-I will be carnal till the end.  Just because we "believe" more correctly than a babylonian christian doesn't make me in and them out.

DOING the word and not just believing and hearing...is that the key to the first resur.? 

I don't think so.  HE holds the key and I think it is already a done deal.

Heaven is a higher spiritual existance w/ God...and it will be AWESOME!!!!

[Kat]

Hi Gena,

DOING the word and not just believing and hearing...is that the key to the first resur.? 
I don't think so. HE holds the key and I think it is already a done deal.

That which I put in bold print is certainly true.

Eph 1:4  according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

So His plan has already determined who would be His Elect and when and where and at what time they will be born, it is a "done deal." But we have to live out His plan for us and of course He has His hand in everything that happens in our lives. But the most profound thing that changes everything and turns us into "doers" is when the Holy Spirit is given us!

John 14:26  But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

Gal 3:5  Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working powerful works in you...

Before the Spirit becomes indwelling everything we do has some degree of self interest, it is only by His Spirit working in us that we can do anything good. It is by His Spirit that we will become "doers of the word" in whatever way He sees fit.

James 1:22  But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Gal 6:9  But we should not lose heart in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not faint.
v. 10  So then as we have time, let us work good toward all, especially toward those of the household of faith.

Now I do not look on our 'works' much in the way as the church does. They think of it as going out and 'doing' and they will be seen by men to recieve praise. I'm not saying it is bad to help other, goodness no, but without God's Spirit it's always a selfish work people do.

Mat 23:5  They do everything so that people will see them. Look at the straps with scripture verses on them which they wear on their foreheads and arms, and notice how large they are! Notice also how long are the tassels on their cloaks!

Mat 6:2  "So when you give something to a needy person, do not make a big show of it, as the hypocrites do in the houses of worship and on the streets. They do it so that people will praise them. I assure you, they have already been paid in full.

I look at the "fruit of the Spirit" or putting on the "new man," which is displayed in our attitude and how we act towards others that is the 'works' we are being judged for right now.

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
v. 23  meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
v. 24  But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
v. 25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Marky Mark]

I'm not sure it's a safe assumption that one will be made perfect immediately in the First Resurrection. It takes great time to be perfect, as only God is perfect. I don't see that happening in the time it takes to bring one out of the ground or to 'change them' in a twinkling of an eye [1 Cor 15:51-52].

Hey Marques.I found this and did a follow up with some Scripture on the subject of perfection.

Hope this helps some...


http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

BECOMING PERFECT

Jesus Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS, and that accomplishes the SALVATION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, because God will eventually bring every creature in HEAVEN AND IN EARTH to repentance and humble submission to Jesus Christ (Phil. 2:9-11, Rom. 10:9, I Cor. 15:25). But forgiving sin, pardoning sin, justifying our sinful past, or even redeeming our bodies and giving us incorruptible and immortal bodies, does NOT make us perfect in deed and character!

God is PERFECT! And God wants His children to BE PERFECT! And believe it or not God WILL ... MAKE ... US ... PERFECT!

"He [God] chooses us in Him [Christ] before the disruption [foundation] of the world, we to be HOLY and FLAWLESS [PERFECT] in His sight..." (Eph. 1:4).

"You, then, shall be PERFECT as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mat. 5:48).

"I in them, and Thou in Me, that they [that's US] may be made PERFECT in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me" (John 17:23).

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man PERFECT in Christ Jesus" (Col. 1:28).

People are quick to say, "Well, NOBODY is perfect." That's not true:

"For it became HIM, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many [that's us and the rest of the world] sons unto glory, to make the CAPTAIN of their salvation PERFECT [how?] Through SUFFERING" (Heb. 2:10).

Yes, maybe no one but Christ is perfect now, but it won't always be that way. Paul knew that it was a process and that it would be ultimately God's achievement:

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12).

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; For the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS..." (Eph. 4:11-12).

Say, did you notice that Christ was perfected through "SUFFERING?" Are we not to bear our own Cross? If they hated and persecuted Christ, will they not do likewise to us? Do we think the Scripture says in vain,

"Herein is our love made PERFECT, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He [Christ] IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I Jn. 4:17).

GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE

God has a way of making imperfect people perfect. It is called FIRE! Whether purging or clearing a garbage dump, or refining gold and silver, there is nothing like the purifying, purging, and perfecting power of FIRE!




Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Php 3:10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15  Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Jas 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Jas 1:12 Happy is the man who is enduring trial, for, becoming qualified, he will be obtaining the wreath of life, which He promises to those loving Him."

1Co 2:6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Luk 6:40  The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 3:9  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Rev 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Eph 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.




Peace...Mark

[mharrell08]

Thanks Mark...and even reading the scriptures and other teachings, I still feel that perfection takes more than our lifetimes to achieve. The passages you referred speak of us becoming perfect which I have no doubt. But I don't think it's a wise assumption that this will be accomplished in the twinkling of an eye. I just think it takes time, God's time.

[Deborah-Leigh]

time, God's time.

"There are two twin brothers. On their thirtieth birthday, one of the brothers goes on a space journey in a superfast rocket that travels at 99% of the speed of light. The space traveller stays on his journey for precisely one year, whereupon he returns to Earth on his 31st birthday. On Earth, however, seven years have elapsed, so his twin brother is 37 years old at the time of his arrival. This is due to the fact that time is stretched by factor 7 at approx. 99% of the speed of light, which means that in the space traveller's reference frame, one year is equivalent to seven years on earth. Yet, time appears to have passed normally to both brothers, i.e. both still need five minutes to shave each morning in their respective reference frame.

Still, we are hardly able to visualise this spacetime continuum, or deal with it in practical terms, because human consciousness is bound to the human body, which is in turn bound to a single reference frame. We live within the confinements of our own spacetime cubicle.

In a way, Einstein has freed our minds from the spacetime cubicle....." http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/timedilation.html

[mharrell08]

"There are two twin brothers. On their thirtieth birthday, one of the brothers goes on a space journey in a superfast rocket that travels at 99% of the speed of light. The space traveller stays on his journey for precisely one year, whereupon he returns to Earth on his 31st birthday. On Earth, however, seven years have elapsed, so his twin brother is 37 years old at the time of his arrival. This is due to the fact that time is stretched by factor 7 at approx. 99% of the speed of light, which means that in the space traveller's reference frame, one year is equivalent to seven years on earth. Yet, time appears to have passed normally to both brothers, i.e. both still need five minutes to shave each morning in their respective reference frame.

Still, we are hardly able to visualise this spacetime continuum, or deal with it in practical terms, because human consciousness is bound to the human body, which is in turn bound to a single reference frame. We live within the confinements of our own spacetime cubicle.

In a way, Einstein has freed our minds from the spacetime cubicle....." http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/timedilation.html

I don't believe learning to be perfect in character is any way similar to traveling. If a sinner can travel at the speed of light, it doesn't change the fact they are a sinner. Just a very fast one. 

At the 2008 conference, Ray went over how much 'work' it took for God to bring about creation...how it took God considerable time. And that was just to create something else, God was already perfect from the start.

Who here can honestly judge themselves and feel as though they are in any way close to perfection? We all may be closer than where we were some time ago, but thinking of the awesome character of our Father in Heaven, it seems we all have some considerable time to go. There's just no such thing as 'instant perfection', it's an oxymoron, it doesn't exist. And it's very humbling to realize as well.

But these are just some thoughts I had on the subject, not looking for a debate or anything.


Marques

[Kat]

Hi Marques,

John 8:28  Then Jesus said to them, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM, and that I do nothing of Myself, but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things.

Jesus says that He did absolutely nothing of Himself, all that He spoke and all that He was doing was directed by the Father. He was totally one with the Father and as such He was perfectly in the Father's will and "always" pleased Him.

John 8:29  And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things which please Him.

We are being lead by the Holy Spirit indwelling, but we all know we can not be perfectly in tune with the Father while we are still in the carnal flesh. We're learning, but but can't be perfectly like Jesus yet, as Paul states.

Php 3:12  Not that I did already obtain, or have been already perfected; but I pursue, if also I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by the Christ Jesus;

My thought is that when we are 'born' into spirit, we enter His kingdom fully sons and daughters and become 'one' with God and then we "shall be LIKE Him."

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Christ was perfect even in the flesh, because He was totally and completely one with the Father. Won't the Elect be born into the kingdom and inherit the promise and be 'one' with the Father? So the Elect will be perfect, because they are one - totally and completely united with the source of perfection?

unit•ed  adj 1 : made one : combined 2 : relating to or produced by joint action 3 : being in agreement : harmonious

1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part:
v. 10  but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
v. 11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.
v. 12  For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I have been known.

The Elect will only be brought completely into His image at resurrection, then they will "always" do His will just like Jesus Christ always does His will. I don't see what we need to learn when we are directly united/one with God. Won't He tell/inspire us to say and do everything just like He did Jesus Christ? I don't mean take away our personality, we shall all retain our own individuality, but we will be perfectly in tune with God and serve Him perfectly, right?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

To add to the beautiful and profound insights offered so far:

We are told in the Psalms that God's life has no END, and in the Greek New Testament in Luke, that God's Kingdom will "have NO END." ........Of course the word "eternity" also means not having a BEGINNING either. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4489.0.html

There is one interesting statement in Isa. 57:15 which states that the "Lofty One inhabits eternity" (King James). But as we know the Scriptures know nothing of "eternity," this is a wrong translation. "Eternity" is taken from the Hebrew word "ad" and it has to do with the future, not the modern concept of "eternity." Concordant translates it "Who tabernacles the FUTURE..." and Rotherham has "inhabiting futurity..."  Which suggests nothing regarding the past.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4475.0.html

If you want to come up with an analogy of where God is in His own realm, as far as time goes.  The closest physical analogy you could come up with is a circle.  Not starting back there and going this way, that way is the past and this way is the future. 

Now if the realm of eternity is as a circle, can somebody point to where eternity begins on a circle?  Can anyone show me, on this circle, where eternity ends?  You can't, can you.

Now I'll give you another little mind boggler, not only can you not show me where it begins or where it ends, I'm telling you it has no beginning and it has no end.  It doesn't move in a circle, it is a circle.  Therefore time has nothing to do with eternity. 

Even your dictionaries most of them, not all, say eternity is an endless period.  Eternity has nothing to do with time, time starts here and goes to there. 

Eternity is like a circle,  you can't find the beginning and you can't find the end.  Because it has no beginning and it has no end.  Therefore in that sense a circle is ultimate truth. So God knows there can never be any thing more perfect than He is.  And that's where He introduces Himself to us. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3720.0

[gmik]

Kat, your post talks as tho we will be similar to earth ways and things---I just don't see that- when Ray says that its a higher spiritual realm--as we are IN HIM--- I can't see us w/ bodies, and personalities and such

                                     or

I could be confused!!

[Deborah-Leigh]

Thank you for this Thread Grace.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace:

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope:

~ God the Eternal Father of Christ the Alpha and Omega, is with us always, even unto the end of the world.~

Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen

[Marky Mark]

Thanks Mark...and even reading the scriptures and other teachings, I still feel  that perfection takes more than our lifetimes to achieve. The passages you referred speak of us becoming perfect which I have no doubt. But I don't think it's a wise assumption that this will be accomplished in the twinkling of an eye. I just think  it takes time, God's time.

Marques my friend, do you have chapter and verse that align with what you speak of? To assume something that is not spoken of in Scripture is treading on  slippery ground. Gods Word is the only basis in which we should believe,not ones own wisdom.

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

If the house of God is being judged now,[because we are not yet perfect],does this also mean that we will have to be judged and overcome sin again, after the first resurrection? Is it not the process of overcoming that makes us perfect[complete]?  Did not Jesus overcome temptation all through His life and then was perfected after His resurrection?

Luk 13:32  And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

If we are to be as He is, then would not being raised from the dead be our perfection? 

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,

Luk 6:40  The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.



Peace...Mark

[mharrell08]

So the Elect will be perfect, because they are one - totally and completely united with the source of perfection?

unit•ed  adj 1 : made one : combined 2 : relating to or produced by joint action 3 : being in agreement : harmonious

I don't think unity, in and of itself, makes one perfect. We can keep the unity of the spirit now as Paul notes [Eph 4:1-3], but later in the same passage, Paul notes there are sins we still need to overcome [Eph 4:30-31].

1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part:
v. 10  but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
v. 11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.
v. 12  For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I have been known.

The Elect will only be brought completely into His image at resurrection, then they will "always" do His will just like Jesus Christ always does His will. I don't see what we need to learn when we are directly united/one with God. Won't He tell/inspire us to say and do everything just like He did Jesus Christ? I don't mean take away our personality, we shall all retain our own individuality, but we will be perfectly in tune with God and serve Him perfectly, right?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

I used to completely agree with your comments in bold...you and I have even discussed somewhat in times past. But ever since the 2008 conference, Ray has been showing from the scripture the awesome character of God...starting to really dwell on Who is God and how He is. Not just His awesome power, but also His awesome wisdom, love, patience, long suffering, etc. Attributes that I never looked at in their proper perspective...even now it is a struggle. It's because of how great and wonderful He is, that I think it is not something we as humans will achieve in an instant.

Also, for what it's worth, the church also believes that one would 'instantly' be turned into a perfect saint at their 'Rapture' or whenever they believe God gathers His people. When I was in church, I never heard sermons on God's character...I don't think they had the proper perspective. And as I said before, for me personally, I feel that I am only beginning to gain some insight into this lofty subject. The church always taught this 'in a moment then BAM!' all believers saved and perfected in an instant....and I don't think it is true, just as I don't think any of their doctrines are true.

I'm not saying I have all the answers but I do know that The Father is greater in every way than we can imagine, as is His Son Jesus. And I don't see us being 'perfect' as them in an instant. I just feel it takes time and I embrace that, it's not a loss if it's something one has never had. I can't think of one thing that God has blessed me with that happened in an instant...can you?



Marques

[JohnMichael]

I used to completely agree with your comments in bold...you and I have even discussed somewhat in times past. But ever since the 2008 conference, Ray has been showing from the scripture the awesome character of God...starting to really dwell on Who is God and how He is. Not just His awesome power, but also His awesome wisdom, love, patience, long suffering, etc. Attributes that I never looked at in their proper perspective...even now it is a struggle. It's because of how great and wonderful He is, that I think it is not something we as humans will achieve in an instant.

That's why they're Elohim, and we're not. It's almost demeaning to God for one to claim He can't do something. Why would God have His Elect suffer great affliction and suffering and tribulation and trials and heartache NOW only to put them through it AGAIN at the first resurrection? According to the scripture, that's the ONLY way one achieves perfection, so you're essentially saying it will continue after the resurrection. If one is going to have to go through it again after being resurrected and after going through it already in life, what's the point of the first time? Why not just wait until resurrection time? It doesn't make sense the further one goes with it.

It's just my personal opinion, but one may have lost sight of the forest for the sake of the trees. I mean no offense in that though

Christ is our example. He overcame the world, and He was granted perfection and glory in His resurrection. Would one be so bold as to demean Christ that He had to continue going through suffering after He was resurrected?

[mharrell08]

Marques my friend, do you have chapter and verse that align with what you speak of? To assume something that is not spoken of in Scripture is treading on  slippery ground. Gods Word is the only basis in which we should believe,not ones own wisdom.

There are plenty of scriptures that speak of reaping and sowing Mark, with even Christ referring to us branches and/or seed bringing forth fruit [John 15]. Anyone who has maintained a garden or what not knows that it takes time for the garden to bloom. We are God's garden...I just am not assuming that the end of this age means we will be in full bloom (perfection), that's all.

If the house of God is being judged now,[because we are not yet perfect],does this also mean that we will have to be judged and overcome sin again, after the first resurrection?

Why would God have His Elect suffer great affliction and suffering and tribulation and trials and heartache NOW only to put them through it AGAIN at the first resurrection?

I really can't say it any other way. I don't know why you two assume that I believe we will have to be put through everything "AGAIN". I can't comment on every false assumption one makes from my comments, nor do I want to.

So I think it will take longer to achieve perfection, so what? If it doesn't, I'll be pleasantly surprised.  If you don't agree, good for you because it's not worth being contentious about.

I actually believe this forum proves this point...all knowledge and understanding, but still lacking in spiritual fruit. We see it all the time and it never changes, no matter how many times a member points it out. Being perfect in the image of God is more than believing all will be saved and God is sovereign. And it's no point in me continuing because it's only revealed in time and even I'm still learning. Hope you understand


Marques

[JohnMichael]

So I think it will take longer to achieve perfection, so what? If it doesn't, I'll be pleasantly surprised.   If you don't agree, good for you because it's not worth being contentious about.

It was not my intent to be "contentious" about what you stated. If I misunderstood regarding the "again" point, I apologize. I meant no offense.

Would the perfection be relative? I don't know if the creation will ever be equal to the Creator - short of an act of that Creator.

Reading back over my post, I can see how that may have come across as abrasive. I didn't mean for it to. Please forgive me.


John

[JohnMichael]

I wonder if once the flesh has been finally severed (death or Christ's return), then would the characteristics that God's Spirit has worked to instill and develop in us then need to be refined. Granted, some of that refining process takes place in this life. I remember reading that article, JFK, and he did say it would be a beginning.

My only thought would be how would a creature that still needs refining be able to help judge others? It would seem that only Perfection itself would be able to truly judge righteously and justly.

Was this more in line with what you were saying, Marques? Now that I'm fully awake, the ol' brain is working better.

John