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[patmokgoko]

How can the Bible say that we must pray for the peace of Jerusalem when there will be no peace in Jerusalem.Psalm 122:6

[daywalker]

Notice this is a Psalm of King David, who reigned over Judah and Israel in the capital city of Jerusalem. Naturally, he would pray for his city and for his nation. We, too, can apply this to "New Jerusalem" (Rev 21:2), the Jerusalem which is "above" and "free" and "mother of us all" (Gal 4:26).

Daywalker 

[Deborah-Leigh]

The New Jerusalem comes DOWN out from Heaven of God...as in Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will Be done, ON EARTH, as it IS in Heaven...

Arc

[patmokgoko]

Let me not pretend as if I understand when I am lost,are you saying it is wrong of me to quote, Psalm 103:8-9,am I being carnally minded,is this not for today?Is the Lord not my sherperd today?Am I missing something?Please help,I know of the new Jerusalem.I know and strongly believe that the Saviour will save ALL.

[Kat]

Hi patmokgoko,

Psa 103:8  The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
v. 9  He will not always chide: neither will he keep His anger for ever (for the age).

This statement is true, but you need to consider it with the sum (whole total) of God's Word.

Psa 18:24  So the LORD has rewarded me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in His sight.
v. 25  With the merciful You show Yourself merciful; with the blameless man You show Yourself blameless;
v. 26  with the purified You show Yourself pure; and with the crooked You make Yourself seem tortuous.
v. 27  For You save a humble people, but the haughty eyes You bring down.

He is "slow to anger," but look at the sum of His Word in this.

Nah 1:2  The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries and keeps wrath for His enemies.
v. 3  The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of His feet.

See what I mean.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Extol]

Hi Pat,

As others have suggested, it is a good idea to look for the spiritual application of Scriptures like this. In Ray's Twelve Truths paper (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm), Truth Number One is "first the natural, then the spiritual":

    [A] "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).

    "It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies]; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies]…" (I Cor. 15:44).

    [C] "Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY…" (Phil. 3:21).

    [D] "If I have told you EARTHLY things [first], and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward]?" (John 3:12).

This discussion of peace reminded me of the story of Jehu and Joram:

II Kings 9:14-24 (New Living Translation)

   So Jehu son of Jehoshaphat, son of Nimshi, led a conspiracy against King Joram. (Now Joram had been with the army at Ramoth-gilead, defending Israel against the forces of King Hazael of Aram. But King Joram was wounded in the fighting and returned to Jezreel to recover from his wounds.) So Jehu told the men with him, “If you want me to be king, don’t let anyone leave town and go to Jezreel to report what we have done.”

  Then Jehu got into a chariot and rode to Jezreel to find King Joram, who was lying there wounded. King Ahaziah of Judah was there, too, for he had gone to visit him.  The watchman on the tower of Jezreel saw Jehu and his company approaching, so he shouted to Joram, “I see a company of troops coming!”

   “Send out a rider to ask if they are coming in peace,” King Joram ordered.

   So a horseman went out to meet Jehu and said, “The king wants to know if you are coming in peace.”

   Jehu replied, “What do you know about peace? Fall in behind me!”

   The watchman called out to the king, “The messenger has met them, but he’s not returning.”

   So the king sent out a second horseman. He rode up to them and said, “The king wants to know if you come in peace.”

   Again Jehu answered, “What do you know about peace? Fall in behind me!”

   The watchman exclaimed, “The messenger has met them, but he isn’t returning either! It must be Jehu son of Nimshi, for he’s driving like a madman.”

   “Quick! Get my chariot ready!” King Joram commanded.

   Then King Joram of Israel and King Ahaziah of Judah rode out in their chariots to meet Jehu. They met him at the plot of land that had belonged to Naboth of Jezreel. 22 King Joram demanded, “Do you come in peace, Jehu?”

   Jehu replied, “How can there be peace as long as the idolatry and witchcraft of your mother, Jezebel, are all around us?”

  Then King Joram turned the horses around and fled, shouting to King Ahaziah, “Treason, Ahaziah!”  But Jehu drew his bow and shot Joram between the shoulders. The arrow pierced his heart, and he sank down dead in his chariot.

This was one of my favorite stories when I was a youngster (mostly because of the violence  ). Then, it was little more than an exciting story of good versus evil, but now I know that there's more to it. Truth Number Eight:

    [A] "Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for OUR ADMONITION [to reprove, caution, warn, remind of obligation or duty, etc.], upon whom the ends of the world [‘eons—ages’] are come" (I Cor. 10:11).

    "Now these things were OUR EXAMPLES, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted" (I Cor. 10:6).

    [C] "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for OUR LEARNING…" (Rom. 15:4).


 This is more than a story about war and peace in the ancient kingdom of Israel. It can still serve as an example to us, even today, and provide spiritual guidance. The key is verse 22, which I've highlighted above. We will not have true peace until all of the idols of the heart have been burned out.

 For a more personal example, I saw this story come alive in me after I first came to Bible Truths. In most versions, the word "idolatry" in v. 22 is translated as "whoredoms", "harlotries", "prostitutions", etc. When I was sleeping with the Mother of Harlots, I was being tormented with the thought of people suffering for eternity. There could be no peace in me as long as the "harlotry of my mother was all around me", with all of her lies masquerading as Truth. Like the Church in Thyatira, I was "tolerating that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet and is teaching and beguiling my servants to practice fornication and eat food sacrificed to idols." (Rev. 2:20).

When I came to Bible Truths, my eyes were opened. Jezebel was thrown out the window, and I finally had inner peace:

 II Kings 9:30-33
When Jezebel, the queen mother, heard that Jehu had come to Jezreel, she painted her eyelids and fixed her hair and sat at a window. When Jehu entered the gate of the palace, she shouted at him, “Have you come in peace, you murderer? You’re just like Zimri, who murdered his master!”

 Jehu looked up and saw her at the window and shouted, “Who is on my side?” And two or three eunuchs looked out at him.  “Throw her down!” Jehu yelled. So they threw her out the window, and her blood spattered against the wall and on the horses. And Jehu trampled her body under his horses’ hooves.

[Joel]

There has been peace in the geographical Jerusalem. The Prince of Peace, Isaiah 9:6
Luke 2:14
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
But Jesus said this before he was crucified.
Luke 19:41-44
And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it.
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this day, the things, which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hide from thine eyes.
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Joel

[longhorn]

It's kinda like saying me and my ex-wife will get back together.  Not going to happen.  No scripture to back this up though.

Longhorn

[daywalker]

Notice this is a Psalm of King David, who reigned over Judah and Israel in the capital city of Jerusalem. Naturally, he would pray for his city and for his nation. We, too, can apply this to "New Jerusalem" (Rev 21:2), the Jerusalem which is "above" and "free" and "mother of us all" (Gal 4:26).

Daywalker 

Ro 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Is New Jerusalem also carnally minded?  I thought the New Jerusalem was not but was spiritual.

Gal 4:23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Grace

Forgive me, Grace, as I don't understand the confusion, nor why you asked if New Jerusalem is carnally minded?

There the thrones for judgment stand, the thrones of the house of David. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May those who love you be secure. May there be peace within your walls and security within your citadels." Psalm 122:5-7

Thanks to GOD, and to Ray's teachings, we understand that in the Hebrew Testament are prophecies which--though they appear to be talking about the nation of Israel--speak of the Messiah, Jesus Christ and of His coming kingdom (which Paul calls Jerusalem above, and John calls New Jerusalem). In several passages we read of a time when Jerusalem will be the center of the world to which many nations and people will come to seek, hear and learn of GOD and His ways. Therefore, this above passage in question is not at all talking about Jerusalem located in Israel of the Middle East, but of the New Jerusalem which is above and mother of us all--as we read in the passages I mentioned, which you also quoted.

Here's one example from the O.T. which isn't talking about the physical city of Jerusalem:

This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the LORD and seek the LORD Almighty. I myself am going.’ And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the LORD Almighty and to entreat him.” This is what the LORD Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’” Zechariah 8:20-23 [See also Isaiah 2:1-5, Psalm 65; Micah 4:1-7, 7:12-18]

We know through Paul's epistles that these "Jews" who are being grabbed by "ten men" are not physical Jews, but "inward" Jews who have been "circumcised of the heart" (Romans 2:28-29).



Hope this helps.

Daywalker 

[gmik]

Pat, Jesus prayed for this cup to be taken from Him when He knew It would not be.  So I guess we can pray when we know the answer...it may be God's Will for us to pray anyway.

[patmokgoko]

Hi guys,thanks for your efforts,I have been told that in order for one to qualify for Christian Universalism you need to be extremely intelligent,just kidding,smile.Grace , your kind words encourage me not to feel all alone,my problem is I want to understand each and everything in the Bible , its not possible,as a Christian Universalist I get many challenges,many questions,pastors avoid me,I loose friends by day,and I want to always be ready to give answers to my detractors(as Larry would call them),you know how these guys are, when you qoute John 12:47 they will tell you to read on to verse 48 which says "He that rejects me....."so one needs to be always on his toes.Thanks Gmik,I will pray for the peace(welfare,favour,good health,safety,prosperityeven though my prayers wont be answered,I will pray simply because supplications,prayers,intercessions be made for ALL MEN,for kings.....to be testified in due season.So ,no peace in Jerusalem,but pray without ceasing,anyway.I enjoy the Forum very much.Love you all.

[daywalker]

Hi guys,thanks for your efforts,I have been told that in order for one to qualify for Christian Universalism you need to be extremely intelligent,just kidding,smile.Grace , your kind words encourage me not to feel all alone,my problem is I want to understand each and everything in the Bible , its not possible,as a Christian Universalist I get many challenges,many questions,pastors avoid me,I loose friends by day,and I want to always be ready to give answers to my detractors(as Larry would call them),you know how these guys are, when you qoute John 12:47 they will tell you to read on to verse 48 which says "He that rejects me....."so one needs to be always on his toes.Thanks Gmik,I will pray for the peace(welfare,favour,good health,safety,prosperityeven though my prayers wont be answered,I will pray simply because supplications,prayers,intercessions be made for ALL MEN,for kings.....to be testified in due season.So ,no peace in Jerusalem,but pray without ceasing,anyway.I enjoy the Forum very much.Love you all.

The Pharisees and Sadducees where well-versed in Scripture. Even the Adversary himself, Satan, is well versed in Scripture; we learn that from Jesus' temptations in the desert (Matt 4; Luke 4). I've read it so many times growing up in Church, but just recently (a few months or so ago) it "hit" me as I was reading it again, I thought, "when the heck did Satan learn all these scriptures?" No doubt, His messengers, too, would be well versed in Scripture (2 Cor 11).

My advice to you would be to do your best to stay away from all these confrontations with Christians. At least, until you feel more comfortable. I remember when I first starting learning these things, I wanted to "shout it from the rooftops". But I learned real fast that I wasn't at all prepared... As Ray has said (paraphrasing), Leave them alone! They don't want the truth! (see also Matt 7:6) Instead, let God bring them to you when He decides you're ready. Besides, He's usually pretty good at 'prepping' them before you enter into the equation.


Godspeed.

Daywalker 

[patmokgoko]

I thought Daywalker will give me a quick interpretation of John 12:48.Daywalker ,I am sorry but I wont leave them alone as you suggest,because I take it that when they ask questions like these then they are starting to see something,the thing is I dont want to be a Daysleeper or Nightwalker,i want to have answers like the Bible encourages.I feel that when I have problems I must always come running to you, and when i say John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son........and my detractor say ja, read on, WHOSOEVER believeth in Him shall not perish,verse 36 he that believeth not the Son shall perish,I dont want to pretend to be be "know all".When I ask you these things I am not testing you,no,I am just saying maybe you came across these questions before and how did you deal with them,one thing I know is that you did not leave them alone 1 Peter 3:15 be ready ALWAYS to give answers.....Acts 18:9 Do not be afraid ,but speak and do not keep quite....I am asking this question "will there ever be peace in Jerusalem" because i heard Ray say "there will be no peace in Jerusalem" ,Now I am asking myself "I thought just before the Lord comes back there will be peace in the WORLD." Finished being serious ,now let us LOL,next time you board a train you must ask if the driver is christian or not because if he (the driver) is christian and it is rapture day,he(the driver) will be snatched away from the steering wheel,and,and,and,and, oh ,no,it is safer to catch a bus driven by a heathen,just in case.....rapture!!!!!Ouch!!!!

[daywalker]

Hey Pat,

There's a difference between someone "asking" you regarding your beliefs, and you pushing them on someone and/or 'arguing' with them. If any person is asking you, as you say they are, then by all means--share the gospel truth with them, don't hold back! But also, be aware of those pharisees (those "wolves in sheep's clothing") who are only looking to trap you in your words and "tear you apart". As Christ said, you will know them by their fruits. As for the judgment (or "condemnation") in John 3, the answer is in the same chapter, beginning at verse 19: "and THIS IS THE JUDGMENT..." Unfortunately, Christians have been trained by their shepherds to stop reading at verse 18, and then add their own false interpretations.

Daywalker 

[Drew]

 Besides, He's usually pretty good at 'prepping' them before you enter into the equation.


Godspeed.

Daywalker 

[/quote]
I love it, DayWalker! Words of wisdom indeed.

Peace

[Deborah-Leigh]

There shall be no peace in Jerusalem.

There shall be no peace in the USA, China, New Zealand, Australia, Russia, Africa nor any place in the world.

For all the world and for each and every one in the world, The Peace that shall be, ever is, was and can ever be, is in the Kingdom of God, not of this world.

Mar 13:21  And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, He is there; believe him not:

Arc

[daywalker]

Hi Daywalker!

I'm sorry for not replying more to this earlier but life has kept me from spending much time on the computer the last several days.  Thank you for giving these scriptures because they did help me in further understanding some things I had not seen before.  My earlier post in this thread was  my own misunderstanding due to "not reading all the words" and I was confused. (Ray says this over and over so, I should know to do that...maybe one day I'll learn this concept   )  That's why I asked the question.  But, after reading back over it I realized I was thinking one thing when you and Pat were actually talking about something else....MY BAD  

Like I said though, I'm glad you posted these scriptures because it helped me understand some things I had not seen before in my studies.

Thanks!!
Grace

Grace,

No worries, it happens. Glad we're on the same page now, and happy that those verses helped. 

Besides, He's usually pretty good at 'prepping' them before you enter into the equation.

Godspeed.

Daywalker 


I love it, DayWalker! Words of wisdom indeed.

Peace

Thanks!! 

Daywalker 

[gmik]

Good words Arc!!  so true!