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Who/What is the Father?
Kat:
This is a email response from Ray on a few questions that I sent to him a short time ago (about a month or so). Ray's comments will be in blue.
Dear Kathy: You don't ever need to apologize for writing to me or taking up my time. That's what I'm here for.
Let me make a few COMMENTS.......in your email.
Hi Ray, I hope this is a good day for you. I have been thinking a lot about the things you brought out in the last Bible study, really interesting stuff. I thought an email might be the best way to ask you about this, of course only if you feel like looking at it. I know you are studying this subject of 'the Father' and what He is and all, so it would not hurt my feelings at all if you do not feel like you can't go into this right now or do not have the time. But I will present this and if you find any point worth commenting on that would be nice.
I will start with this Scripture.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.
I understand that we have not heard the Father's voice, yet many did hear Christ and He represented the Father completely and was "the Word of God."
Rev 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
So is it wrong to think that when we hear Christ we are hearing the Father? Not literally, but in essence it is the Father?
COMMENT: Yes, of course, we hear the Father through Christ. Jesus is the "Word" as you point out, which is really the "expression," the "statement," and the "representative" of the Father. The meaning of "logos--word" is more than just a single word as we see defined in a dictionary, but historically represented the message of the messenger. Jesus is the Bridge between the spirit realm of God and the physical universe.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
v. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."
I do want you to know that I realize that Christ is not the Father, and the voice that spoke at the baptism of Christ was not His (Jesus') own voice saying those things, it was "a voice," as you have stated before, of an angel/messenger.
The other part of John 5 also says "you have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." Yet Christ seems to be stating that the disciples did see the Father when they see Him.
COMMENT: He not only "seems to be stating," He literally IS stating. But if the Father is invisible spirit, how can He be seen through visible humanity?
Are we to believe that somehow the Father looks like a man? And doesn't the Bible say that "God is NOT a man?" Actually, it doesn't. We are yet allowing the theology of Christendom to influence our thinking. I have used Numbers 23:19 myself in the past as a verse that shows that "God is not a man." But that is not really what this verse or I Sam. 15:29 are saying at all. There is no period (.) after the word "man" in either verse.
When one sees a comma or a semi-colon, it means that there is more to follow, and often brings out a totally different textual meaning than is meant by presenting only fragments of a sentence. The same is true with teaching that God never changes. What proof do we have for this? Why Mal. 3:6, right? Wrong! Read it: "For I am the LORD, [comma] I change NOT; [semi-colon--ah, there's more to follow that shows in what WAYS God does not change]..." More on all these things later in my study.
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
v. 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
v. 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
COMMENT: How could anyone believe this verse and yet believe that Jesus was just a "lucky Jew" who was chosen to be the lottery winner of the universe! Just believe God, live a few years of a sinless life, and this Jewish man will be given ALL THE POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH FOR ALL ETERNITY! We should all be so lucky! Nonsense! No mere mortal could EVER fill the shoes of God the Father and be given control (including all judgment of all humanity) of God's universe for all eternity. Jesus Christ was a billion times more than just a mere moral man! More later..........
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?
So I am wondering if the simple statement of fact "I and My Father are one" says it all?
COMMENT: Maybe not quit all, but pretty close once we understand all the facts and contexts of that statement.
Is the bond of oneness between the Father and Son such a perfect oneness of mind, that to hear or see Christ is to see or hear the Father, in essence anyway?
COMMENT: Yes, of course (I would leave off the phrase "in essence anyway").
So I'm wondering about the statement in Kings "Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You," isn't this the Father?
COMMENT: I Kings 8:27 does say "God--Elohim" in verse 27, And we know that it is the "LORD--Jehovah" which Moses saw at Siani, therefore this is Jesus and not the Father. Besides, Deut. 10:14 states that the "heaven of heavens" are the "LORD'S thy God," and so again, that is Jesus.
Maybe He can't be brought down into a "shape" or a being,
COMMENT: But then again, maybe HE CAN!
so could it be that Jesus Christ was created to be the image of the Father to meet the need we (humanity) would have to 'see' God? So are we actually seeing the Father through Christ?
COMMENT: There is a problem here not only with tirinitarianism, but with most all other isms as well, if we try to make two Beings (or Persons, although I am not comfortable with the word person as its first definition is "a human being") out of the Father and Son, and that is, if Jesus is God and the Father is God, we then have TWO GODS and the Scriptures are plain that there is but "ONE GOD."
I use to think the word "Elohim" solved the problem, seeing that is plural for "El" which means "God" or the "Deity." After all didn't God (Elohim) say, "Let US...after OUR...." (Gen. 1:26)? Yet, but in Gen. 11 it was "the LORD--Jehovah, Jesus" Who said, "let US go down," not Elohim. Likewise, the Shema of Deut. 6:4 says: "Hear O Israel the LORD thy God is ONE LORD." It doesn't say that the "LORD thy God is one ELOHIM." No, it says "one LORD--YHWH." And YHWH is singular, not plural.
So according to Paul, the One God must be "the Father," not?
Didn't Paul say: "But to us there is but one God, THE FATHER" (I Cor. 8:6)? Yes, but once again, the sentence doesn't end there with a period (.), does it?
If we take out all the descriptive phrases we have this: "...there is one God, the Father...AND one Lord Jesus Christ..." Before everyone shouts "heresy," let me finish my research. What would happen if we were to replace the comma (,) after the word "Father" with a colon ( : )? "But to us there is but one God: the Father...AND the Lord Jesus Christ...." But wouldn't that mean then that the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (the two of Them) are ONE GOD? Yes of course, isn't that what John 10:30 says: "I AND My Father ARE ONE"?! There's much more to this, but I will save it till later.
John 5:23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
I know that sometimes I tend to fly off in the wrong direction, so if this is just too confused then just forget about it and I will certainly wait until you complete your study on this and present an article. Thanks for taking the time though.
Kathy
COMMENT: No, I don't think you are flying off in the wrong direction, Kathy, however, there is a lot more to it. I believe that Christendom has failed to teach us what it is that God the Father wants and desires FOR HIMSELF. Why did He make a "physical" universe? Was it only to have and bring children into His Kingdom? We really need to reconsider how much was involved in God acquiring the Wisdom necessary to build His universe and create a suitable Family for His Kingdom.
God be with you,
Ray
JohnMichael:
I eagerly await this study that Ray is working on. This has been a thorn in the flesh for me. I know the trinity is false, but the one teaching that I can't shake with study is Oneness. Granted, "if the Church teaches it, it's probably false." I have been waiting in faith for God to reveal it in His time - though my human nature can be awful impatient at times. ;)
Sometimes I've wondered if the "Let US [be making] man in OUR image" was the use of the "royal we." The royal we is defined as the first-person plural pronoun used by a sovereign in formal address to refer to himself or herself. The first-person plural pronoun used by a king or queen to refer to himself or herself, for example, "We are not amused," a line attributed to Queen Victoria.
This form of addressing has been used by monarchs when addressing their subjects.
YET - this doesn't seemingly line up with Christ's distinction between Himself and the Father.
Just a thought. However, as God gives me the strength and patience, I'm awaiting this study on baited breath.
Blessings,
John
John from Kentucky:
Kat,
Thanks for sharing this. Most profound. This subject that Ray is studying, Who and What is God, is the spear point of knowledge at this point in time. It surpasses all other current human exploration of knowledge. Why? All things come from God. If we come to the knowledge of God, all other truth will flow from this. "To boldly go where no man has gone before."
You should store this with Ray's other writings for ease of reference and not get it lost in this thread. Thanks again for sharing.
John
Kat:
Hi John,
--- Quote ---You should store this with Ray's other writings for ease of reference and not get it lost in this thread.
--- End quote ---
That's a good idea. I will post it in 'Transcripts of Ray's Audio's and More Teachings' under the listing 'More of Ray's teachings' at this link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg59603.html
His response helped me a great deal, in that I had some thoughts that were just turned around backwards. I was thinking that the Father was just too great to take on the image of mere humans (so I was attributing His image to us), but in actuality it seems the Father is where this image/shape originated from to start with. Yes this study should be a real eye opener.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: Kat on May 20, 2011, 06:17:27 PM ---
Hi John,
--- Quote ---You should store this with Ray's other writings for ease of reference and not get it lost in this thread.
--- End quote ---
That's a good idea. I will post it in 'Transcripts of Ray's Audio's and More Teachings' under the listing 'More of Ray's teachings' at this link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg59603.html
His response helped me a great deal, in that I had some thoughts that were just turned around backwards. I was thinking that the Father was just too great to take on the image of mere humans (so I was attributing His image to us), but in actuality it seems the Father is where this image/shape originated from to start with. Yes this study should be a real eye opener.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Yes, the ramifications are stunning. I see where Ray is being guided, and it is utterly stunning. I don't dare give my own opinions. Much to meditate upon from your exchange with Ray.
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