> General Discussions
Who/What is the Father?
gmik:
Prov. 8: 15-36 is great reading. It is talking about wisdom but there sure are parallels to Jesus.
Prov 8:17...those seeking me earnestly to find me
:20...paths of righteousness...paths of judgement
:22...Jehovah possessed me..the beginning of His way, Before His works since then
:23 From the age I was anointed, from the first, from former states of the earth
:24 In there being no depths I was brought forth
:25 Before mountains were sunck, before heights, I was brought forth
:26 In His preparing the heavens I am there
:30 Then I am near Him a workman, a delight Rejoicing before Him at all times
:31.....my delights are the sons of men
:35..for whoso is finding me finds life
It doesn't matter to me really, but there are people who have found wisdom but not life....all this seems to be like Jesus to me and He was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
If Wisdom has all this personality, does Love also? Kindness or any of the gifts of the spirit??
I know Jesus grew in Wisdom...but the "wisdom" talked about in Prov. 8 is NOT our normal use of the word.
Hopefully, Ray will expound more on this.
I was at the conference and have read the notes and am still confused...so I usually move on.....I mean after all, I sometimes have a hard time loving my neighbor and I think that is Way More Important!
imho
gena
HopeinChrist480:
God is light. Light encompasses everything that is good. Love is the greatest of all good. Grace is the greatest form of Love. The Holy Spirit is the embodiment of Grace. Therefore, saying that God is Love is true.
1 Corinthians 13:13 (Concordant Literal)
13 Yet now are remaining faith, expectation, love -- these three. Yet the greatest of these is love.
1 John 1-10 (Concordant Literal)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, at which we gaze and our hands handle, is concerned with the word of life.
2 And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us.
3 That which we have seen and heard we are reporting to you also, that you too may be having fellowship with us, and yet this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.
4 And these things we are writing, that our joy may be full.
5 And this is the message which we have heard from Him and are informing you, that God is light, and darkness in Him there is none.
6 If we should be saying that we are having fellowship with Him and should be walking in darkness, we are lying and are not doing the truth.
7 Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin.
8 If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we should be avowing our sins, He is faithful and just that He may be pardoning us our sins and should be cleansing us from all injustice.
10 If we should be saying that we have not sinned, we are making Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
:)
Samson:
Hi Kat & the other Responders Too,
Below are some Email Responses of Ray's, quotes from His articles that pertain to Who & What God Is in regards to The Father & Jesus(Jehovah Elohim). Ray's quotes are in Blue, I decided to exclude the part of these Emails that contain the questioner & their question to save on space.
Heb 1:1 God [FATHER], who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son [JESUS], whom [JESUS] He [FATHER] hath appointed heir of all things, by whom [JESUS] also He [FATHER] made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who [JESUS] being the brightness of his [FATHER] glory, and the express image of His [FATHER] person, and upholding all things by the word of His [JESUS] power, when He [JESUS] had by Himself [JESUS] purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high [FATHER];
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He [JESUS] hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they [ANGELS].
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said He [FATHER] at any time, Thou [ANGELS] art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him [ANGELS] a Father, and he [ANGELS] shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten [JESUS] into the world, He [FATHER] saith, And let all the angels of God worship him [JESUS].
Heb 1:7 And of the angels He [FATHER] saith, Who maketh His [FATHER] angels spirits, and His [FATHER] ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [FATHER] saith, Thy throne, O God [JESUS], is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Thy [JESUS] kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou [JESUS] hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy [JESUS] God, hath anointed thee [JESUS] with the oil of gladness above Thy [JESUS] fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord [FATHER], in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of Thine [FATHER] hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but Thou [FATHER] remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt Thou [FATHER] fold them up, and they shall be changed: but Thou [FATHER] art the same, and Thy [FATHER] years shall not fail.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said He [FATHER] at any time, Sit on My [FATHER] right hand, until I [FATHER] make thine [ANGELS] enemies thy [ANGELS] footstool?
Hope that helps you.
God be with you,
Ray
IN REGARDS TO COLOSSIANS. 2:9 (FULLNESS OF DEITY)
Dear Markus:
First, there is no such thing as a "Godhead." It is "Divine" or "Divinity" or "Deity,"
and it means "that which pertains to God." God the Father lived and spoke and worked
in His Son Jesus. In his body, Jesus represented God the Father. Hence, he told Philip
that when he saw Christ he also saw His Father (John 14:8-11). "I and My Father
are ONE" (John 10:30).
God be with you,
Ray
REGARDING JOHN. 10:30(I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE)
Dear Peter:
You are arguing with yourself, and even then, not very well. I have consistently taught that "I and My Father ARE ONE" (John 10:30). I state that in my paper on the pagan trinity.
You refuse to believe the simple meaning of words. Jesus never said: "I and My Father are the same ONE PERSON," now did He? Did He? Then why do you suggest that that is what He said or meant? That same Jesus also said that a man should leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife and the two of them shall BE ONE. He did not, however, say that the two of them shall be THE ONE AND SAME PERSON, now did He? DID HE?
From my paper on the trinity:
Page 22, Paragraph 3: "Is Christ God? YES HE IS!"
Paragraph 4: "Is Christ worthy of worship? YE HE IS!"
Paragraph 5: "So Christ is called 'God,'
Paragraph 6: "Jesus IS God!"
What in the world are you arguing about, Peter? You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
Ray
Dear Scott:
Who said that "Jesus isn't equal with God?" Jesus is in the very IMAGE OF GOD:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
I Cor. 4:4--"...the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God..."
Heb 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of His person.."
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Jesus, however, is NOT His Own Father, and will always be in subjection to His Father:
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him [His Father] that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
God be with you,
Ray
Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."
[1] "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).
[2] "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]" (Rev. 1:08).
[3] "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).
[4] "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
[5] "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).
[6] "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).
One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God." Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.
God be with you,
Ray
Dear Darren: Thank you for your concern over my health (or lack thereof).
Your question may be "short," but it is not specific. I realize how difficult
for most to "pay close attention to all the words."
You ask whether "God our Father" had a beginning? You then suggest that the churches teach that
"God always existed." Which is your question? Did "God the FATHER" have a beginning or did 'GOD"
have a beginning. See the difference? We must make a distinction, as there is a distinction.
The phrase "God the Father" is nowhere found in the O.T. Hebrew Scriptures, only in the N.T. Greek (Ex: John 6:27).
"GOD" (Who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) has always existed and did not have a beginning.
However, God as a "FATHER," did have a beginning. One cannot be a father unless He is a "parent," for that
is one of the main definitions of a "father" in the Greek language. God has conceived a Son, and from that
time He became a FATHER with a Child--the beginning of His FAMILY.
God means "placer or disposer." God is not a "placEE" or a "disposEE." God the PlacER was never placED
So: "GOD" as the original supreme Being of the universe did not have a beginning.
But God "THE FATHER" of our Lord Jesus Christ did not become the "FATHER" until He became the Father
and Spiritual Parent of Jesus Christ. Hope this helps clear up your discussion.
God be with you,
Ray
BELOW ARE EXCERPTS FROM THE NASHVILLE 2007 CONFERENCE.
WHO IS THE FATHER !
Jesus Christ is the spokesman for His Father. No matter what Christ says, He is the mouth piece for the Father. He’s not Charley McCarthy, He’s not a puppet, but He is the mouth piece for the Father, they are in agreement. I don’t know if the proper phonetics and all that are given to Him by the Father and if He really has no latitude of His own.
So when Christ said, “I have come to reveal the Father” or in John 1:18 where John says Christ came to reveal or unfold the Father, it doesn’t necessarily mean that now Christ is going to tell us all about the Father. He’s going to tell us how the Father communicates now and in the past. All we have to recognize is the Father communicates through the Son.
“I and the Father are One.” (John 10:30)
“I am in Him and He is in Me, We are One.” (John 17:21)
“The Words I speak, I speak of the Father.” (John 12:50)
God doesn’t change. When you have perfect character, perfect love, as Christ and the Father say that they have, you don’t change. There is no variableness of turning in God the Father and Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Jehovah Elohim is the Lord God of Malachi 3:6, which is Jehovah Elohim and just as much God as Jehovah and “I change not.”
Partly what Jesus Christ was doing when He was revealing the Father, was letting them know who He was. Before Abraham, “I Am” that was Me. What? Yes that was Me. Not only was that Me, but here, Me, the Christ, the Savior, the Messiah in the flesh, this is the Father. Everything that I say is the Father. Everything that I do is the Father. Then they started to understand it and believe it.
That’s why Paul could say that there is one body, one spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, one Father, of all, because he understood it, and they understood it too, at the end. You can tell by their writing they were beginning to understand it.
Hope this assists this Topic, Samson.
indianabob:
Hi Kat,
Point of interest.
I think that you will find that "see the face of My Father" is just a Jewish or Hebrew expression for "stand in the presence of" or "have continuous access to" rather than demonstrating that God has a face for them to see.
Respectfully offered, Indiana Bob
--- Quote from: Kat on May 22, 2011, 09:02:40 AM ---
Hi Abednego,
Well here is a Scripture that you may find interesting.
Mat 18:10 "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
HopeinChrist480:
I still need much study on this subject but don't we all? My question is, what would be the meaning of John 1:1? I need further clarification. The verse reads,
John 1:1 (Concordant Literal)
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
" 'In the beginning was the word,' " - The beginning of creation or in the beginning as in always has existed with the Father? I believe that it's indeed the former.
" 'and the word was toward God,' " - God in this part of the verse refers to the Father.
" 'and God was the word.' " - I've come to the conclusion that the Father is the Word or Logos as it is in Greek and so is the Son. Thus the unity of the Father and the Son. The Father and The Holy Spirit must have always existed, however, God created Jesus before the creation of the heavens and the earth. God created Jesus to be in unity with Him, to create the heavens and the earth with Him, to set forth His plan. These are a few reasons though I'm sure that there are more. Is it possible that the " 'God' " in this verse is " 'a god' " or that the Father created a god to be in unity with Him? However, I don't think this is the case. The word " 'God' " here also refers to the Father. Only a bit ago I was believing that " 'God' " in this verse meant "a god", in other words a god was the word. Could this still be true? Therefore, I came before to a conclusion that in the beginning or before creation, He always existed with the Father and The Holy Spirit and both having The Holy Spirit. How then could Jesus have always existed? Remember, Colossians 1:15? It reads,
Colossians 1:15 (Concordant Literal)
15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
Let us continue to study together in the unity of the faith.
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