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[One Love]

Hi HopeinChrist

You should read this quote, you could have missed this before you posted, to follow a post you should click on the topic and you'll get the various replies relating to that topic only.

Hi Kat & the other Responders Too,

Below are some Email Responses of Ray's, quotes from His articles that pertain to Who & What God Is in regards to The Father & Jesus(Jehovah Elohim). Ray's quotes are in Blue, I decided to exclude the part of these Emails that contain the questioner & their question to save on space.

Heb 1:1 God [FATHER], who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son [JESUS], whom [JESUS] He [FATHER] hath appointed heir of all things, by whom [JESUS] also He [FATHER] made the worlds;

    Heb 1:3 Who [JESUS] being the brightness of his [FATHER] glory, and the express image of His [FATHER] person, and upholding all things by the word of His [JESUS] power, when He [JESUS] had by Himself [JESUS] purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high [FATHER];

    Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He [JESUS] hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they [ANGELS].

    Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said He [FATHER] at any time, Thou [ANGELS] art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him [ANGELS] a Father, and he [ANGELS] shall be to me a Son?

    Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten [JESUS] into the world, He [FATHER]  saith, And let all the angels of God worship him [JESUS].

    Heb 1:7 And of the angels He [FATHER]  saith, Who maketh His [FATHER] angels spirits, and His [FATHER] ministers a flame of fire.

    Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [FATHER]  saith, Thy throne, O God [JESUS], is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Thy [JESUS] kingdom.

    Heb 1:9 Thou [JESUS] hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy [JESUS]  God, hath anointed thee [JESUS] with the oil of gladness above Thy [JESUS] fellows.

    Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord [FATHER], in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of Thine [FATHER] hands:

    Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but Thou [FATHER] remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

    Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt Thou [FATHER] fold them up, and they shall be changed: but Thou [FATHER] art the same, and Thy [FATHER] years shall not fail.

    Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said He [FATHER] at any time, Sit on My [FATHER] right hand, until I [FATHER] make thine [ANGELS] enemies thy [ANGELS] footstool?

         Hope that helps you.

    God be with you,

    Ray

IN REGARDS TO COLOSSIANS. 2:9 (FULLNESS OF DEITY)

Dear Markus:

First, there is no such thing as a "Godhead."  It is "Divine" or "Divinity" or "Deity,"

and it means "that which pertains to God."  God the Father lived and spoke and worked

in His Son Jesus. In his body, Jesus represented God the Father. Hence, he told Philip

that when he saw Christ he also saw His Father (John 14:8-11).  "I and My Father

are ONE" (John 10:30).

God be with you,

Ray

REGARDING JOHN. 10:30(I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE)

Dear Peter:
You are arguing with yourself, and even then, not very well.  I have consistently taught that "I and My Father ARE ONE" (John 10:30).  I state that in my paper on the pagan trinity.
You refuse to believe the simple meaning of words.  Jesus never said: "I and My Father are the same ONE PERSON," now did He?  Did He?  Then why do you suggest that that is what He said or meant?  That same Jesus also said that a man should leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife and the two of them shall BE ONE.  He did not, however, say that the two of them shall be THE ONE AND SAME PERSON, now did He?  DID HE?
 
From my paper on the trinity:
 
Page 22, Paragraph 3:  "Is Christ God?  YES HE IS!"
 
Paragraph 4:  "Is Christ worthy of worship?  YE HE IS!"
 
Paragraph 5:  "So Christ is called 'God,'
 
Paragraph 6: "Jesus IS God!"
 
What in the world are you arguing about, Peter?  You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
Ray

Dear Scott:
    Who said that "Jesus isn't equal with God?" Jesus is in the very IMAGE OF GOD:

    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    I Cor. 4:4--"...the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God..."

    Heb 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of His person.."

    Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    Jesus, however, is NOT His Own Father, and will always be in subjection to His Father:

    1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him [His Father] that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
    God be with you,

    Ray

Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."

[1]  "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).

[2]  "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]"  (Rev. 1:08).

[3]  "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).

[4]  "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

[5]  "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies?  Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).

[6]  "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).

One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God."  Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.

God be with you,

Ray

Dear Darren:  Thank you for your concern over my health (or lack thereof).
 
Your question may be "short," but it is not specific.  I realize how difficult
for most to "pay close attention to all the words."
 
You ask whether "God our Father" had a beginning?  You then suggest that the churches teach that
"God always existed."  Which is your question?  Did "God the FATHER" have a beginning or did 'GOD"
have a beginning.  See the difference?  We must make a distinction, as there is a distinction.
 
The phrase "God the Father" is nowhere found in the O.T. Hebrew Scriptures, only in the N.T. Greek (Ex:  John 6:27).
"GOD" (Who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) has always existed and did not have a beginning.
However, God as a "FATHER," did have a beginning.  One cannot be a father unless He is a "parent," for that
is one of the main definitions of a "father" in the Greek language.  God has conceived a Son, and from that
time He became a FATHER with a Child--the beginning of His FAMILY.
 
God means "placer or disposer."  God is not a "placEE" or a "disposEE."  God the PlacER was never placED
 
So:  "GOD" as the original supreme Being of the universe did not have a beginning.
But God "THE FATHER" of our Lord Jesus Christ did not become the "FATHER" until He became the Father
and Spiritual Parent of Jesus Christ.  Hope this helps clear up your discussion.
God be with you,
Ray

BELOW ARE EXCERPTS FROM THE NASHVILLE 2007 CONFERENCE.

               WHO IS THE FATHER !

Jesus Christ is the spokesman for His Father.  No matter what Christ says, He is the mouth piece for the Father.  He’s not Charley McCarthy, He’s not a puppet, but He is the mouth piece for the Father, they are in agreement.  I don’t know if the proper phonetics and all that are given to Him by the Father and if He really has no latitude of His own. 

So when Christ said, “I have come to reveal the Father” or in John 1:18 where John says Christ came to reveal or unfold the Father, it doesn’t necessarily mean that now Christ is going to tell us all about the Father.  He’s going to tell us how the Father communicates now and in the past.  All we have to recognize is the Father communicates through the Son.

“I and the Father are One.”  (John 10:30)
“I am in Him and He is in Me, We are One.”  (John 17:21)
“The Words I speak, I speak of the Father.” (John 12:50)

God doesn’t change.  When you have perfect character, perfect love, as Christ and the Father say that they have, you don’t change.  There is no variableness of turning in God the Father and Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.  Jehovah Elohim is the Lord God of Malachi 3:6, which is Jehovah Elohim and just as much God as Jehovah and “I change not.”

Partly what Jesus Christ was doing when He was revealing the Father, was letting them know who He was.  Before Abraham, “I Am” that was Me.  What?  Yes that was Me.  Not only was that Me, but here, Me, the Christ, the Savior, the Messiah in the flesh, this is the Father.  Everything that I say is the Father.  Everything that I do is the Father.  Then they started to understand it and believe it.

That’s why Paul could say that there is one body, one spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, one Father, of all, because he understood it, and they understood it too, at the end.  You can tell by their writing they were beginning to understand it.

Hope this assists this Topic, Samson.

Also read this:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html

[Kat]

Thanks for the addition Samson, that does help to see where the Scripture are speaking of the Father.

Hi HopeinChrist,

Therefore, I came before to a conclusion that in the beginning or before creation, He always existed with the Father and The Holy Spirit and both having The Holy Spirit. How then could Jesus have always existed?

I believe this verse is speaking of Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (KJV)

Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)

So this states that Jesus Christ was created and was the beginning/first of the creation of God. So then God became the Father, because now He had a Son. If Jesus Christ was created and He had a beginning, then He was not always with God, just like every human being came into creation at their birth and did not always exist.

I've come to the conclusion that the Father is the Word or Logos as it is in Greek and so is the Son.

This was part of the email at the beginning of this thread;

COMMENT: Yes, of course, we hear the Father through Christ. Jesus is the "Word" as you point out, which is really the "expression," the "statement," and the "representative" of the Father. The meaning of "logos--word" is more than just a single word as we see defined in a dictionary, but historically represented the message of the messenger. Jesus is the Bridge between the spirit realm of God and the physical universe.

So if you consider that Jesus Christ is the Word/messenger/representative of His Father, it makes sense because He says we have never heard the voice of His Fahter.

John 5:37  And the Father who sent Me has Himself borne witness about Me. His voice you have never heard, His form you have never seen,

The Father has never spoken to a human being besides Jesus Christ, so that was given to Jesus Christ to do since man has been on this earth.

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

P.s. Thanks Bob that is a interesting point.

[daywalker]

friend akira329

I wonder if we have considered that God may not be invisible in the spiritual realm.
We are told that God is not visible to our eyes which are limited to a fraction of "physical" radiation.
However, the apparent fact that God made humans to have limited physical vision
and not be able to see God does not prove that God is invisible in His essence.
This idea may carry over to God's shape. Why do we think that God needed a pattern in order
to build the shape of mankind? When God built the earth for MAN he planned for the man to have
mobility (legs, arms, fingers) and the five senses in order to be able to experience life or living on the earth and to learn
from the experience. None of this requires that God be restricted to similar limitations.
God is the ultimate creator, inventor, engineer and would not need a pattern to guide Him.

Just commenting on a thought that came to mind when reading your message.

Kindly, Indiana bob

Hey Bob,

I agree with you that God can't be "limited" or "restricted" to requiring a pattern for His creation as He is Almighty and His knowledge is Unlimited. That being said, though, I wanted to bring up this passage as it came into my head as I read your post:

Heb 8:1  Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
Heb 8:2  a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.
Heb 8:3  For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.
Heb 8:4  Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law.
Heb 8:5  They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain."

It appears, if I'm reading this correctly, that the tent which Moses built (and quite possibly all the other stuff they made, even the Temple years later?) had a pattern according to "heavenly things". I couldn't begin to tell you exactly what that means, just seems to somehow fit into this conversation.

What does it mean that the LORD "set up" this "true tent" which is a "heavenly thing" or something existing in the heavenly realm?

Are these "heavenly things" things that we can't see because of our natural, physical limitations?

Does this mean that in the Resurrection we will be able "see" these things?

Will we actually see with our eyes (the eyes of our new bodies) "New Jerusalem" coming down?


Sorry, Bob, not asking you these questions, they just kinda started flowing.......Alright, Ray, you gone and done it again...you got me thinking too hard! LOL.... I too am eagerly awaiting the completion of this study he mentions. Hopefully God will enlighten him with some answers that may help me and others with our newfound questions. 

Daywalker 

[JohnMichael]

I had a thought occur to me yesterday while thinking of this subject. It occupies my thoughts a lot.

There's seemingly a problem.

On one hand, there's the Old Testament that presents "One Lord" and no one else. "Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is ONE LORD." Other verses state, "I am the LORD, there is none else." The Old Testament portrays only ONE Divine Being.

On the other, the New Testament presents TWO Divine Beings - The Father and Christ.

My thought was this: what if the answer lies within the Relative vs. the Absolute that we've seen in other areas such as where one verse will say So-and-so was righteous in the sight of God, but then another verse says No one is righteous. One verse is spoken from man's perspective, and one is written from God's perspective.

Just throwing some thoughts into the mix for discussion's sake.

John

[Craig]

From Ray

Dear Forum: I asked Gina if she would mind me posting her email and my reply
on the Forum--she consented. With my reply to Gina, I have now given you (our
Forum readers only, as it will be some time before I do a study and paper on this)
the key to understanding just Who God is.

We will also delve into the "What"
aspect of God.  All of the Scriptures must agree or we are not understanding or
teaching properly.  I have said for many years that "Jesus IS GOD" (see pp 22-23
of my article "God is NOT a Trinity."  But if Jesus IS God and His Father IS God
don't we then have TWO GODS?  There is ONLY ONE GOD!  Yes, this does
appear to be an unsolvable enigma, but it is not unsolvable.  I have said and taught
further through the years that not only is Jesus God, but He is the ONLY GOD that
we will every truly know in this life.  And why do I say that?  Well for one thing, that
IS what the Scriptures teach:  "And this IS life eternal [eonian--'And this is the
Aionian Life..."--Emphatic Diaglott." ], that they might know Thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou has sent" (John 17:3).  Yes, it will take "aions/eons"
to come to know God the Father.  It won't happen in this life. So what is the purpose
of us receiving eonian life?  To come to "...know Thee the only true God..."

I am receiving emails from some who are trying to "beat me to the punch" so to speak, in
revealing just Who and/or What is our God.  I have neither the time nor the inclination
to go through all of these emails to critique all these speculations, but I am sure there
will be some who will attempt to to get their teaching on the Forum before I do.  I encourage
study and research, however, let's not be guilty of doing it for the sake of vanity.  And this
is not to say that some have some truthful insight into this subject, but there is so much
more to this teaching that just solving the riddle of how the Father and Son can both be God
if.....I say IF they are separate Beings with separate personalities.

"Hear O Israel, the LORD thy God is ONE LORD" (Deut. 6:4).

"I and My Father ARE ONE" (John 10:30).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word [singular] WAS GOD" (John 1:1).

"I am the LORD, and there is non else, there is NO GOD BESIDE ME" (Isa. 45:5--"none
   else" ver. 14;  "none else" ver. 18; "none beside Me" ver. 21;  "I am God, there is none else"
   ver. 22;  "I am God, there is none like Me," Isa. 46:9;  "I am and there is none else beside
   Me," Isa. 47:Cool.

"There is none other God, BUT ONE...But to us there is BUT ONE GOD" (I Cor. 8:4 & 6).

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, 'Hear, O Israel; The Lord
our God is ONE LORD" (Mark. 12:29).

As to how many "Gods" there are, there is no argument!  There is but ONE GOD!  I have
now given you part of the answer, but there is much to follow.  We know what the Scripture
says, but how is it possible for two to be one God? There is an answer, but  I would ask
that you reserve sending me either questions or outlines of your own personal studies until
after I have an opportunity to publish my research.

I am working on a write-up on what "herbs" I take, and just what many of these "herbs" are
that God mentions in the Scriptures.

God be with you all,

Ray


----- Forwarded Message -----
Subject: Re: I have a question

Ray,

It's about your post on the forum to Kat's question.

You said,
"If we take out all the descriptive phrases we have this: "...there is one God,
the Father...AND one Lord Jesus Christ..." ..... What would happen if we
were to replace the comma (,) after the word  "Father" with a colon ( : )?
"But to us there is but one God: the Father...AND the Lord Jesus Christ...."

Why did you change the word "one" to the word "the"?   Is the word "one"
also spurious?

Thanks for your time.   No need to answer if you aren't feeling up to it.

Gina


Dear Gina:  Boy you are pretty observant, Gina.  Actually I did not intend to use the
article "the" at all, and I would shorten the statement even further to the lowest
number of words which would still retain Paul's premise. I just didn't want to try and
cover this teaching in an e-mail which will probably take a hundred pages. But let's
finish my thought, and I will then reserve further comment until I am ready to reveal
my findings.  The King James reads:

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom
are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by
whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8: 6).

Notice the lite face type added by the translators to make Paul's statement mor
readable.  By taking out the added words we lose nothing:

"But to us one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in Him,
and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom all things, and we by Him."

Paul's subject in this chapter is "idols."  So He is teaching Who the real God is.

Who is the "one God" of Whom he speaks?  He answers: "the FATHER," followed
by a description of the Father's role in the universe, but if we take out the description
of His role we loose nothing, as the thought is the same only shortened:  "to us there is
one God, THE FATHER. But Paul doesn't end his statement with a period. There is
more to follow.  He also speaks of "one Lord Jesus Christ" and a description of His
role in the universe.  Okay, let's leave out ALL the descriptive words describing both
of Their roles, and we have this:

"...to us...ONE GOD:  the Father...AND...Jesus."

I am not suggesting that this is the way to study all Scripture, by taking out
words, but I am trying to draw attention to the most important words.

Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30).  Who is the
"one" in Jesus's statement?  The Father?  NO--"the Father AND Jesus."
Wow.  Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?

God be with you,

Ray

[Grace]

Just when you think you have God all figured out, then He throws a curve ball.  

Now, I'm thinking the 1st Resurrection isn't the end, but just the beginning.  It will be the start of kindergarten.

In this life, God is just training the Elect to get along and be nice with the other children, and get potty trained.  School starts on the other side.

At least it's not boring!

Amazing isn't it JFK?  Curve balls are really getting to be like a maze for me....mazes can be fun...why,  they even have them in theme parks and you have to pay to go in one.....

potty trained

Please! Don't tell me I gotta go through that again!! 


Grace

[One Love]

Just can't wait for this teaching by Mr. Smith! Anyway, I'm gona put my 50cents worth here, after searching and reading all the scriptures on this post, I noticed the following, the "I", "Me", "He", "Him" refers to himself, one person, WHO or a WHAT. It is referring to a WHO, a personal IDENTITY.

I then done some research and came up with these quotes by great people in history, the (ibid., 2:1:1) after the quote I don't know. Some of these quotes dates back to [A.D. 80]

"Nor is he moved by anyone; rather, freely and by his Word he made all things. For he alone is God, he alone is Lord, he alone is Creator, he alone is Father, he alone contains all and commands all to exist" (ibid., 2:1:1).

"Of his own accord and by his own power he made all things and arranged and perfected them; and his will is the substance of all things. He alone, then, is found to be God; he alone is omnipotent, who made all things; he alone is Father, who founded and formed all things, visible and invisible, sensible and insensate, heavenly and earthly, by the Word of his power. And he has fitted and arranged all things by his wisdom; and while he comprehends all, he can be comprehended by none. He is himself the designer, himself the builder, himself the inventor, himself the maker, himself the Lord of all" (ibid., 2:30:9).

"God the Father, founder and Creator of all things, who alone knows no beginning, who is invisible, immeasurable, immortal, and eternal, is one God. Neither his greatness nor his majesty nor his power can possibly be—I should not say exceeded, for they cannot even be equalled. From him . . . the Word was born, his Son. . . . And the latter, since he was born of the Father, is always in the Father. And I indeed say always . . . he that exists before all time must be said to have been in the Father always, for he that exists before all time cannot be spoken of in relation to time. . . . [A]ssuredly, he [the Son] is God, proceeding from God, causing, as Son, a second person after the Father, but not taking away from the Father the fact that God is one" (ibid., 31).

[Deborah-Leigh]

God alone is not alone! ~