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Author Topic: The subjects of Lying and God's sovereignty  (Read 3671 times)

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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The subjects of Lying and God's sovereignty
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2011, 11:47:15 AM »


Hi Zander,

Quote
Sovereignty

Ray says this: By the way, the word "omnipotent" does not mean "the ability
to do absolutely anything," as you suggest.  It means sovereign or unlimited power or
authority.  I'm not quit sure just how much power and authority it takes to lie, but regardless,
God can't do it.  Of the ten times that "pantokrator" appears in the Greek Scriptures, only
once is it translated "omnipotent."  The other nine times it is translated "almighty."

I am trying to understand this properly. Does this mean God therefore CANNOT do "absolutely anything?"  I understand he cant lie and cant be evil etc.  But to read in a sentence that God cannot do anything puts a new slant on things for me and kind of answers a question ive had for a few years - Is God limited? If God CANNOT do everything, is he therefore limited in some way?  If he cannot "snap" his fingers for all to "instantly be like him", then i see this as a kind of limit.  Not in a bad way, but a limit.  It also made me think, does even God have total free will?

About your question on God's sovereignty, something that Jesus said came to mind.

Mark 2:27  And He said to them, The sabbath came into being for man's sake, and not man for the sabbath's sake.

This was concerning Christ healing on the Sabbath day, which the Pharisees strongly objected to because it was unlawful to do any work on the Sabbath.

Mark 2:24  And the Pharisees said to Him, Behold, why do they do that which is not lawful on the sabbath day?

So when you think about this, it was God who created the code of the law by which we should live to determine what is right or wrong. So when the Pharisees were in an uproar because Christ healed on the Sabbath day, He reminded them that He was Lord over these laws that they were holding against Him.

Mark 2:28  Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath.

So is God limited by His own laws? No of course not. Can we hold God to a code of law that was created for weak minded mankind? Of course not.

When you think of this God being and His power and greatness (such a weak sounding word when used to try to express God), what kind of limits could He have? I would think it would only be self-imposed limits for whatever He had determined He would not do.

At the close of the 08 Nashville conference Ray speaks about what God must have went through to "birth" wisdom. Before He came up with this perfect plan to create beings in His own image He needed the wisdom to do so.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8831.msg73653.html ------

He could not build this universe until He possessed the wisdom to do it before the creation came, the master plan and the wisdom to do it. How did He get that wisdom? He birthed it! Under the travail and pain and agony, that He passed on to women to experience a minute little insignificant part of what it is like to bring about children that are going to be in the image of God.  

He travailed with pain and agony, until wisdom was birthed out of Him, so that He could now build the universe. It says so! Well you can say, ĎI donít see it.í I donít care, this wisdom was with Him before the heavens and the earth, it was with Him. But where did it come from? He birthed it with great pain, travail and sorrow. It was difficult for God! So donít think that God hasnít done anything for us.  

God has never suffered? God has never had to work hard? God has never had to go long periods of time and not get what it is He wanted? Donít think that way anymore. You have a Father in heaven that can identify with everything you are.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

So when you try to think of what this eternal Being must of had to go through to come to a point where He understood with perfect wisdom the difference in good and evil, it's just incomprehensible... BUT HE DID!  Surely we do not understand even to a minute degree the awesomeness power and wisdom and love of this glorious Being. But He did obtain wisdom and He formed a plan to create beings in His image and is now He is carrying that plan out to prefection. It is His work, is He restricted by His own laws? Is there any limits that this sovereign God has? I would think only self-imposed ones.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Samson

  • Guest
Re: The subjects of Lying and God's sovereignty
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2011, 01:16:02 PM »

Hi Forum,

Below are some of the points regarding Lying, Deceiving, Bearing False Witness that were especially good, copied & pasted below in Blue. Furthermore, Let Me state that Lying as it relates to bearing false witness doesn't include witholding information to those who are not entitled to receiving it. In the past, I've been accused of Lying on this basis. For instance, suppose you get Married and aren't ready to share that information with others, including some relatives, because Your experience with doing so led to emotional injury and plotting from those wishing to undermine & ruin Your Marriage, so You decide not to share that information. I don't consider that Lying, because this information(My getting Married) is none of anyone's business, except God's, My wife & Mine until I decide to let others know.

Bearing False Witness against One's Neighbor consists of a Lie intended to harm or injure that Neighbor by some deception. Many people are Gossipers and slanderers and will take information that they really aren't entitled to with the desire to CAUSE HARM OR INJURY. Sometimes the intent is not malicious, but a result of an individual opening their "big Mouth" spreading Your personal information & usually forgetting exactly what you told them, hence, the information becomes distorted.

From Mark902: You know what your motivations are its just a matter of being honest about it. And being honest is not the same as rationalizing  Wink although sometimes they can be confusing. At this point in our journey towards God outside of religion we have the ability to look past the legalism and dogma and see truth. To start giving out "what if this" scenarios would do no good because each situation is different and God judges hearts so check that first. But even good intentions can have negative consequences to other people so we have to be sure that is not happening. I use this formula not just for lying but all gray issues..christmas..going to church..etc.. I am happy I have the freedom to make these decisions myself and not be enslaved to an organisation who usually see things as black or white. In reality life is really a whole lot of grey area.

Hello everyone just thought I would chime in
firstly "can it be ok to lie?"..of course it can lying is not black and white quite to the contrary. an example..
A man is hiding Jews from the Nazis they come and ask him about them.no brainer right?

From Arion: Also for consideration, withholding the truth at times isn't necessarily lying either.  There are times when too much honesty can be detrimental.  Say your spouse cooks something for you and she really worked hard at it and it really tastes terrible, or the standard of 'Honey, does this dress make me look fat?'  There are times where discretion is the better part of valor.  Being less than totally honest at times isn't always a bad thing.

From Craig: As for question #1
Quote
This struck me.  Can someone confirm to me then that lying can be ok and is NOT a sin in some cases then?   Any thoughts?

You answered it yourself.

Quote
Rahab lied about the spies and it was counted to her as righteousness, seeing that she saved lives.

Craig.

Below are some Scriptures for consideration !

Deu 5:20  Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 23:1  Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Lev 19:16  Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
Pro 11:13  A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.
Pro 26:22  The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
Pro 6:17  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18  An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19  A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Deu 19:15  One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Deu 19:16  If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
Deu 19:17  Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
Deu 19:18  And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
Deu 19:19  Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
Deu 19:20  And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

                           Just My Take, Samson.


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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The subjects of Lying and God's sovereignty
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2011, 01:28:39 PM »


Hi HopeinChrist,  

These things that you are mentioning here are already in the BT articles in great detail. The idea of a 'limited' free will was addressed in the article 'The Myth Of Free-Will Exposed.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html -----------------

Believing in contradictions is absolutely necessary if one is to accept most Christian doctrines, and this "limited free will" is just another one of them. Letís take a quick look at this idiotic proposal of "limited free will." It is nothing more than the "square circles" theory all over again.

Here is how my Twentieth Century Websterís Dictionary defines "limited, a. restricted" (Page 963). And here is how this same dictionary defines "free, a. without restriction" (Page 682). Got it? "Limited" means: RESTRICTED, and "free" means: WITHOUT RESTRICTION.

So scholarly theologians would have us believe that man possesses a will that is, "RESTRICTED WITHOUT RESTRICTION." What? Does anyone see a problem with this limited free will theory? Does the word "contradiction" come to mind?
----------------------------------------------------------

Quote
The one thing Jesus Christ cannot do is deny himself. Would the sovereign God be any different? Would the Holy Spirit be any different? No. Therefore self is the one and only hinderer preventing free-will from being possible. It can be argued that the " 'Himself' " in verse 13 of the following Scriptures actually refers to the Holy Spirit. However, I do not believe this to be true. Just because the Holy Spirit is the essence of God, doesn't mean that he's the self of God. Wouldn't this then mean that the Holy Spirit is God the Father? Yes. This cannot be true, because Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are PART of God and so being part of God, they are connected by Love, or the Father. God is self-existent. This means that He had no creator, but always exists, unchanging, from before time and always. The Holy Spirit was with the Father from the very beginning but this doesn't mean that he's God. It is notable that our limitation is that we are not God. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirits' one and only limitation is that they cannot deny themselves. If they denied themselves, they would be sinners. Mankind is such.

It was hard for me to understand exactly what you are saying here. It sounds a little Trinitarian, but I don't think you meant it to. Ray has spoken a lot on the subject of the Holy Spirit here are a couple places that I thought would help clearify things.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html --------------------------------------

The holy spirit is never called God, God is never referred to as a trinity or a person or consisting of three, and Christ is the Son of the Father, YET this mysterious doctrine is believed by millions. Why?
v
v
In Mat. 12:28 Jesus said He cast out demons "by the SPIRIT of God." Yet the Pharisees claimed He did it by the power of Beezeboul. Jesus told the Pharisees that accusing Him of casting out demons "by the power of Beezeboul," when He did it by the "spirit of God," is blasphemy against the "holy spirit" (Ver. 32).

Here is clear and simple proof that the "spirit of God" and the "holy spirit" are ONE AND THE SAME SPIRIT--not a third person of a so-called trinity!

Again let me state: Anything that is "of" or "from" someone else cannot BE that same someone else! Nothing can be "of" someone and yet, at the same time, "be" that same someone! This is axiomatic.

The holy spirit is something that God the Father possesses--it is not a separate, third god or deity of some fabled trinity. The spirit "of" God is "Godís" spirit. And notice that God offers His spirit as a gift to those who ask:

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)

The holy spirit is not an entity of its own, but is rather a possession of God which He gives to us.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4995.0.html -----------------

THerefore SInce the "SPIRIT" (holy spirit) is THE LORD(the father), the father must be the spirit.
    
    COMMENT:  The "Spirit" is the possession of God the Father--it is "The Spirit OF God."  However, God has given His Son Jesus Christ this SAME spirit. God has shared ALL with His Son: "ALL power in heaven and earth is given Me" (Matt. 28:18).  Jesus takes of the Spirit His Father has given Him and gives it to US (John 16:15).  The "Comforter" (the "parakletos) IS JESUS.  "And if any man sin, we have an Advocate [Gk: 'parakletos] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous" (I John 2:1). Jesus Christ IS, the Lord of the Old Testament; the Lord of the New Testament, the Comforter (Parakletos), which is the promised Holy Spirit, which comes to us through JESUS CHRIST, and so "The Lord is that SPIRIT."
    
    God be with you,
    Ray

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HopeinChrist480

  • Guest
Re: The subjects of Lying and God's sovereignty
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2011, 05:26:03 PM »


Hi HopeinChrist,  

These things that you are mentioning here are already in the BT articles in great detail. The idea of a 'limited' free will was addressed in the article 'The Myth Of Free-Will Exposed.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html -----------------

Believing in contradictions is absolutely necessary if one is to accept most Christian doctrines, and this "limited free will" is just another one of them. Letís take a quick look at this idiotic proposal of "limited free will." It is nothing more than the "square circles" theory all over again.

Here is how my Twentieth Century Websterís Dictionary defines "limited, a. restricted" (Page 963). And here is how this same dictionary defines "free, a. without restriction" (Page 682). Got it? "Limited" means: RESTRICTED, and "free" means: WITHOUT RESTRICTION.

So scholarly theologians would have us believe that man possesses a will that is, "RESTRICTED WITHOUT RESTRICTION." What? Does anyone see a problem with this limited free will theory? Does the word "contradiction" come to mind?
----------------------------------------------------------

Quote
The one thing Jesus Christ cannot do is deny himself. Would the sovereign God be any different? Would the Holy Spirit be any different? No. Therefore self is the one and only hinderer preventing free-will from being possible. It can be argued that the " 'Himself' " in verse 13 of the following Scriptures actually refers to the Holy Spirit. However, I do not believe this to be true. Just because the Holy Spirit is the essence of God, doesn't mean that he's the self of God. Wouldn't this then mean that the Holy Spirit is God the Father? Yes. This cannot be true, because Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are PART of God and so being part of God, they are connected by Love, or the Father. God is self-existent. This means that He had no creator, but always exists, unchanging, from before time and always. The Holy Spirit was with the Father from the very beginning but this doesn't mean that he's God. It is notable that our limitation is that we are not God. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirits' one and only limitation is that they cannot deny themselves. If they denied themselves, they would be sinners. Mankind is such.

It was hard for me to understand exactly what you are saying here. It sounds a little Trinitarian, but I don't think you meant it to. Ray has spoken a lot on the subject of the Holy Spirit here are a couple places that I thought would help clearify things.

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html --------------------------------------

The holy spirit is never called God, God is never referred to as a trinity or a person or consisting of three, and Christ is the Son of the Father, YET this mysterious doctrine is believed by millions. Why?
v
v
In Mat. 12:28 Jesus said He cast out demons "by the SPIRIT of God." Yet the Pharisees claimed He did it by the power of Beezeboul. Jesus told the Pharisees that accusing Him of casting out demons "by the power of Beezeboul," when He did it by the "spirit of God," is blasphemy against the "holy spirit" (Ver. 32).

Here is clear and simple proof that the "spirit of God" and the "holy spirit" are ONE AND THE SAME SPIRIT--not a third person of a so-called trinity!

Again let me state: Anything that is "of" or "from" someone else cannot BE that same someone else! Nothing can be "of" someone and yet, at the same time, "be" that same someone! This is axiomatic.

The holy spirit is something that God the Father possesses--it is not a separate, third god or deity of some fabled trinity. The spirit "of" God is "Godís" spirit. And notice that God offers His spirit as a gift to those who ask:

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)

The holy spirit is not an entity of its own, but is rather a possession of God which He gives to us.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4995.0.html -----------------

THerefore SInce the "SPIRIT" (holy spirit) is THE LORD(the father), the father must be the spirit.
    
    COMMENT:  The "Spirit" is the possession of God the Father--it is "The Spirit OF God."  However, God has given His Son Jesus Christ this SAME spirit. God has shared ALL with His Son: "ALL power in heaven and earth is given Me" (Matt. 28:18).  Jesus takes of the Spirit His Father has given Him and gives it to US (John 16:15).  The "Comforter" (the "parakletos) IS JESUS.  "And if any man sin, we have an Advocate [Gk: 'parakletos] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous" (I John 2:1). Jesus Christ IS, the Lord of the Old Testament; the Lord of the New Testament, the Comforter (Parakletos), which is the promised Holy Spirit, which comes to us through JESUS CHRIST, and so "The Lord is that SPIRIT."
    
    God be with you,
    Ray



Yes, I understand what you had said. By no means do I think that God is a trinity or triunity, although I thought of Him once as a triunity. Thanks for not jumping too soon to any conclusions. I know that the Father is God, and not Jesus or The Holy Spirit, thus the Unity of God. Jesus and The Holy Spirit are PART of God. We pray to the Father and we can to Jesus but not The Holy Spirit. What's the reason why we do not pray to The Holy Spirit? I forget but only remember that there was a Scriptural reason. However, Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father and Christ is Emmanuel (Immanuel) or God with us. I want to make sure that I understand this accurately. He was the physical representation of God on Earth?

Matthew 6:6 (Concordant Literal)

6 "Now you, whenever you may be praying, enter into your storeroom, and, locking your door, pray to your Father Who is in hiding, and your Father, Who is observing in hiding, will be paying you.

John 14:13-14 (Concordant Literal)

13 And whatever you should be requesting in My name, this I will be doing, that the Father should be glorified in the Son.
14 If you should ever be requesting anything of Me in My name, this I will be doing.

Ephesians 1 (Concordant Literal)

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to all the saints who are also believers in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,
4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,
5 in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will,
6 for the laud of the glory of His grace, which graces us in the Beloved:
7 in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,
8 which He lavishes on us; in all wisdom and prudence
9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ -- both that in the heavens and that on the earth --
11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
12 that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.
13 In Whom you also -- on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation -- in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
14 (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!
15 Therefore, I also, on hearing of this faith of yours in the Lord Jesus, and that for all the saints,
16 do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention in my prayers
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may be giving you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him,
18 the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints,
19 and what the transcendent greatness of His power for us who are believing, in accord with the operation of the might of His strength,
20 which is operative in the Christ, rousing Him from among the dead and seating Him at His right hand among the celestials,
21 up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending:
22 and subjects all under His feet, and gives Him, as Head over all, to the ecclesia which is His body, the complement of the One completing the all in all.

Isaiah 7:14 (Young's Literal)

 14Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,

Isaiah 8:8 (Young's Literal)

 8And it hath passed on into Judah, It hath overflown and passed over, Unto the neck it cometh, And the stretching out of its wings Hath been the fulness of the breadth of thy land, O Emmanu-El!

Matthew 1:21-23 (Concordant Literal)

21 Now she shall be bringing forth a Son, and you shall be calling His name Jesus, for He shall be saving His people from their sins."
22 Now the whole of this has occurred that that may be fulfilled which is declared by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 "Lo! The virgin shall be pregnant And shall be bringing forth a Son, And they shall be calling His name 'Emmanuel,'" which is, being construed, "God with us."

 :D
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 05:36:12 PM by HopeinChrist480 »
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