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[zander]

Yesterday, Ray put up a letter posted by a gay man who tries to challenge that homosexuality is not a sin.

He made the following statement below:

Secondly the Leviticus Codes of Holiness no longer apply to NT Christians. Leviticus 20:9 orders death to children for cursing their parents? Do we abide by that today, NO! We are under a NEW LAW!

I think Ray answered this incorrectly. Ray went on to explain that cursing parents is still indeed a sin.  Aaron (the gay man) was not contesting this notion.  I think what Aaron was saying, is that we no longer order death to children today if we curse our parents - NOT the actual act of cursing our parents.

Just wanted to point it out.

[Craig]

Zander I don't agree with you.  Aaron's whole premise was that homosexuality was not a sin in the New Testament.  Ray pointed out that even though we may not put to death a child that curses their parents, it is still a sin.  And yes Aaron was contesting this notion.

Know this, if I emailed Ray and said  gossip, or adultry or any number of sins was not a sin then he would let me have it with both barrels also.  Ray is not judging the sinner but he does judge the sin.  It's been awhile but this response is vintage Ray.

Craig

[zander]

OK.  (btw i am not entering the argument of homosexuality).

It just seems that Aaron was making the point that we no longer order the death of children, which is fair enough  as we don't.  But Ray answered it as if to say its not a sin to curse our parents.  I'm sure Aaron or any basic Christian would understand that it Is of course a sin to curse our parents.  I would have understood it more had it been answered something like "even though today we no longer order the death of children for it, cursing your parents is still a punishable sin."

I know we will have differing opinions on it, but its just the way i am seeing it.

[Craig]

I see where you are going Zander.  Ray was using sarcasm, Aaron used the premise of cursing your parents is not a sin in the new testament to justify homosexuality and Ray went along with him.

Craig

[zander]

OK i dont know if i'm being misunderstood, maybe its the way i'm writing it.

Forget the Cursing of parents.  Lets forget that entirely for a second.  Pretend it never even came up.

Aaron's point (the way i see it) was that in Leviticus they ordered children to die.

Aaron's point being now that Children are NO longer ordered to die in the New Testament.

The way i see it, Ray didnt address that today, we no longer order children to die.  He instead talked about the other bit.

Anyway, its not really a huge deal.

[HopeinChrist480]

Secondly the Leviticus Codes of Holiness no longer apply to NT Christians. Leviticus 20:9 orders death to children for cursing their parents? Do we abide by that today, NO! We are under a NEW LAW!

We aren't under The Old Covenant of the Law anymore but The New Covenant of Grace. Grace is not a law. Just because we are under Grace does not give us a license to sin. We can sin. Any sin. Should we? NO. Homosexuality is still a sin. The same goes for lesbianism and bisexuality. If anybody dies in one of these three sins, they will go to the temporary lake burning with fire and sulfur. Therefore, they will not be one of the firstfruits. Scripture makes it very clear in Unveiling and 1 Corinthians that this is STILL a sin. Thus we dislike sin but realize that these are human-beings in trouble, living in such. We have to get them out of sin and get them to live in Christ. The word catamite in the following verse of Unveiling means a person living in homosexuality. Wouldn't the word catamite also encompass lesbians and bisexuals? I believe so. Why would lesbianism and bisexuality be any different? They wouldn't. Do you think that God favors one over the other? HE DOES NOT LIKE SIN AT ALL. Thus all of these are sins. In other words the sexually immoral will be in the lake burning with fire and sulfur if they do not turn from their sins. Many of the sexually immoral will try and give you the run-around and avoid your explanations of Scripture because they are trying to justify their sins. BEWARE! There's also no such thing as somebody being more homosexual than other homosexuals. They are all 100% homosexuals. Such is the same for lesbians and bisexuals. They all live in the same sin. There's also 1 Corinthians 6:9 that you need meditate on.

Unveiling 21:8 (Concordant Literal)

8 Yet the timid, and unbelievers, and the abominable, and murderers, and paramours, and enchanters, and idolaters, and all the false-their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.

1 Corinthians 6:9 (Concordant Literal)

9 Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,

[HopeinChrist480]

We have to get them out of sin and get them to live in Christ.

We have to???  I may regret this but, how do "we" get them to do anything?  I have been trying to "get" my son to believe in the one hope he has for peace, mercy, grace, love, salvation.....I can't DO anything outside of what Christ wants me to do..

I am not trying to make you feel foolish or judge you or whatever, my friend, but this is hard for me to be silent on..... I have been trying to DO what I thought was right my whole life and it all failed....like Ray says, we can't even take a breath if HE doesn't will it to happen...in one of Ray's studies he says that if you don't believe that just try holding your breath and see if you can make yourself die......you can't do it.  Maybe someone can bring that study up for you but, I am finding the longer I live the more I realize that I am in control of nothing....THANK GOD.

I say this out of a very humble attitude, I promise you.  It's not one of pride.......I would not wish anyone to walk in my shoes to find that path....

Grace

I understand what you are saying. Sorry, I made a mistake there. It should read, " 'We should help them out of sin and help get them to live in Christ.' " Of course it's God who wills in us. Thanks for the concern.

[octoberose]

I've started thinking that the penalty for sins in the old testament is the penalty that Jesus had to pay on the cross. Death, separation, all of it.  When we curse our parents we don't physically die- we spiritually die and Jesus paid for that with his physical death. He did not receive grace up on that cross-He received that old testament penalty. He was the Ram -we are Isaac. But the penalty is always paid.

[Samson]

oK, so please replY....ARE WE ALL PUPPETS HERE? GEEZ wHY IS EVERYONE SO AFRAID?

Grace,

No, We are not Puppets, but I don't want to veer into that Responsibility versus Accountability accompanied with they have the desire, so they Sin, but All of Us were Created exceedingly weak to avoid Sinning, but God's doing a Work in Us, creating Humanity in His Image, but it's a process, primarily targeting God's Chosen Elect during this Lifetime(AGE) routine. However, We have a History of Threads accompanied by discussions on this Subject, as a matter of fact, there is an Email by Ray, right from the Front page entitled, ARE WE PUPPETS, so I shall copy & paste it for you below. God created Humanity(Male/Female) too spiritually weak not to Sin. God is the Author of every cause, every circumstance and every response by Humans that ever took place, presently takes place and will take place, but We are participants, Actors & Actresses, if you will in this Great Play(The Human condition), written & directed By God. Read Ray Below.

Dear Ray,

In the letter I sent on July 23 about freedom of choice you answered me with this reply "we are not the captains of our own destiny ... you will quit smoking when GOD DECIDES YOU WILL QUIT SMOKING and not before"

If this is true, then we ARE puppets with God pulling the strings. This means that God is in charge of all sin.

If this is so why did Jesus have to suffer for our sins if we really are not in control of sinning?

If it is true then all of those TV evangelists are preaching about hell because GOD HASN'T DECIDED TO STOP THEM YET.

All the misinterpretations of the bible that cause people to hate God's children because they are different WONT STOP UNTIL GOD DECIDES.

Ray is this what you mean is happening unknown to us? I just want to understand what you are saying. I really am not being arrogant, even though its sounds that way.

I am a Christian for sixty years. For the past two years I have been researching past Christian history. It puts a new outlook on what I have read. I have always blamed mankind for the Spanish inquisition, slavery, white man slaughtering the American Indians, etc.

I just don't want to believe they were all GODS DECISIONS. Do you understand what Ii am trying to say Ray?

Very sincerely,

Grace

Dear Grace:

Your feelings and thoughts are not unusual.  Many people who come into a knowledge of the Truth [Jesus] have a real battle on their hands for some time.

YES, God is in control of EVERYTHING--EVERY THING!!!

Consider the alternative of this fact. God IS NOT IN CONTROL OF ANYTHING!!! Would that make you happier? Of course not.  It's just that we want to place God where WE THINK HE SHOULD FIT INTO OUR FRAME OF THINKING.

Either God created His own ENEMY (Satan), or Satan created HIMSELF and God was helpless to stop him and has been loosing out to Satan by a ratio of ten to one for the past so many thousands of years. This is what Christendom teaches. This is NOT what the Scriptures teach.

By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet.  But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?

You ask why Christ should die for the sins of humanity which were known and brought about by God Himself? I would as you of what purpose would be Christ's crucifixion if it saved no one except those who somehow came to Christ by their own free will ASIDE from any "drawing of the Father"?

The problem is, Grace, that we have been so brainwashed by the pagan and heretical theories of carnal-minded men that it is difficult to believe and rejoice in the plain, simple, and yet marvelously profound truths of God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!

Meditate on this theme for a couple of years, Grace, and it will all become very clear--trust me, it will!

Sincerely,

Ray

           Hope This Helps, Samson.

[HopeinChrist480]

oK, so please replY....ARE WE ALL PUPPETS HERE? GEEZ wHY IS EVERYONE SO AFRAID?

Grace,

No, We are not Puppets, but I don't want to veer into that Responsibility versus Accountability accompanied with they have the desire, so they Sin, but All of Us were Created exceedingly weak to avoid Sinning, but God's doing a Work in Us, creating Humanity in His Image, but it's a process, primarily targeting God's Chosen Elect during this Lifetime(AGE) routine. However, We have a History of Threads accompanied by discussions on this Subject, as a matter of fact, there is an Email by Ray, right from the Front page entitled, ARE WE PUPPETS, so I shall copy & paste it for you below. God created Humanity(Male/Female) too spiritually weak not to Sin. God is the Author of every cause, every circumstance and every response by Humans that ever took place, presently takes place and will take place, but We are participants, Actors & Actresses, if you will in this Great Play(The Human condition), written & directed By God. Read Ray Below.

Dear Ray,

In the letter I sent on July 23 about freedom of choice you answered me with this reply "we are not the captains of our own destiny ... you will quit smoking when GOD DECIDES YOU WILL QUIT SMOKING and not before"

If this is true, then we ARE puppets with God pulling the strings. This means that God is in charge of all sin.

If this is so why did Jesus have to suffer for our sins if we really are not in control of sinning?

If it is true then all of those TV evangelists are preaching about hell because GOD HASN'T DECIDED TO STOP THEM YET.

All the misinterpretations of the bible that cause people to hate God's children because they are different WONT STOP UNTIL GOD DECIDES.

Ray is this what you mean is happening unknown to us? I just want to understand what you are saying. I really am not being arrogant, even though its sounds that way.

I am a Christian for sixty years. For the past two years I have been researching past Christian history. It puts a new outlook on what I have read. I have always blamed mankind for the Spanish inquisition, slavery, white man slaughtering the American Indians, etc.

I just don't want to believe they were all GODS DECISIONS. Do you understand what Ii am trying to say Ray?

Very sincerely,

Grace

Dear Grace:

Your feelings and thoughts are not unusual.  Many people who come into a knowledge of the Truth [Jesus] have a real battle on their hands for some time.

YES, God is in control of EVERYTHING--EVERY THING!!!

Consider the alternative of this fact. God IS NOT IN CONTROL OF ANYTHING!!! Would that make you happier? Of course not.  It's just that we want to place God where WE THINK HE SHOULD FIT INTO OUR FRAME OF THINKING.

Either God created His own ENEMY (Satan), or Satan created HIMSELF and God was helpless to stop him and has been loosing out to Satan by a ratio of ten to one for the past so many thousands of years. This is what Christendom teaches. This is NOT what the Scriptures teach.

By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet.  But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?

You ask why Christ should die for the sins of humanity which were known and brought about by God Himself? I would as you of what purpose would be Christ's crucifixion if it saved no one except those who somehow came to Christ by their own free will ASIDE from any "drawing of the Father"?

The problem is, Grace, that we have been so brainwashed by the pagan and heretical theories of carnal-minded men that it is difficult to believe and rejoice in the plain, simple, and yet marvelously profound truths of God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!

Meditate on this theme for a couple of years, Grace, and it will all become very clear--trust me, it will!

Sincerely,

Ray

           Hope This Helps, Samson.

Actually, we are all puppets. I by no means mean this in a bad way. Puppets in the hands of a loving puppet master and that is God. If we aren't puppets then what would be the word? His sovereign will is greater than our limited one. Everything that happens in life is because of God and He loves everyone, we are all important to His plan. Therefore, we aren't just puppets. Some may still have trouble understanding the puppet master doctrine which is understandable.


The problem is, Grace, that we have been so brainwashed by the pagan and heretical theories of carnal-minded men that it is difficult to believe and rejoice in the plain, simple, and yet marvelously profound truths of God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!

Sincerely,

Ray

           Hope This Helps, Samson.

[Rene]

oK, so please replY....ARE WE ALL PUPPETS HERE? GEEZ wHY IS EVERYONE SO AFRAID?

Hi Grace,

I'm confused.  Reply to what?  What question did you ask that no one answered.   Members will respond to a post when they feel compelled to do so.  If no one responds, well, so be it.  Don't take it personally.

René

[octoberose]

Because of Romans 9 we have a better word than puppets-we are clay, made from dust, some for noble use and some for ignoble. I actually find great comfort in that. We just don't get to ask the Maker, "why did you make me thus?" But I can't sit around and figure if I don't feel like doing something it's Gods will when the Word has already told me what to do and how. The journey is important because Gods made it important-He wants us to struggle, to knock, to study. Isn't this part of being refined?

[octoberose]

Here's the funny thing. So often I want to ask some of our well written and eloquent brethren, "how do you remember all of this?" And the way you're studying is great so you shouldn't apologize.  When I have a question here I usually start with the search engine though you really have to sift through that sometimes and reword the question. I too feel very slow because of the sheer volume of info but I'm So Glad there's enough here to struggle with for years to come!

[JohnMichael]

By Grace:

I say this out of a very humble attitude, I promise you.  It's not one of pride.......I would not wish anyone to walk in my shoes to find that path....

I will second that. It is not a pleasant experience when God takes the Rock to one's pride. I can speak to that from personal experience.

This person's email even made me recoil when he insinuated that Paul was making up doctrines and that "homosexuality is a gift from God." I mentally recoiled as if burned. Granted, I was once one of those that believed that God was perfectly fine with it - that it was an OT law only - meant to separate the Israelites from the heathen, etc, BUT it is a deception. When the Truth showed it for what it was, I broke down in uncontrollable sobs when I first read Ray's paper on it.

[daywalker]

Actually, we are all puppets. I by no means mean this in a bad way. Puppets in the hands of a loving puppet master and that is God. If we aren't puppets then what would be the word? His sovereign will is greater than our limited one. Everything that happens in life is because of God and He loves everyone, we are all important to His plan. Therefore, we aren't just puppets. Some may still have trouble understanding the puppet master doctrine which is understandable.

Sincerely,

Ray

Not puppets.... Clay. Clay in the Potter's Hands. 

[HopeinChrist480]

I don't want to veer into that Responsibility versus Accountability

Thanks Samson.  I apologize.  I ask everyone to please forgive my post in here.  

The earlier letter to Ray from "Grace" was not mine....it was another Grace....that's weird.

Grace

Another Grace, hmmm. Perhaps one of us has a stalker albeit a very good hacker to masquerade. A stalker... ...oh, my, my! 

[HopeinChrist480]

Not puppets.... Clay. Clay in the Potter's Hands. 

I forgot all about that word. I'm not sure why. Totally slipped my mind. I suppose that's a better term since it's based off of Scripture. Same concept and that doesn't take away from the fact that it's God that wills in us.

 

[Revilonivek]

Yesterday, Ray put up a letter posted by a gay man who tries to challenge that homosexuality is not a sin.

He made the following statement below:

Secondly the Leviticus Codes of Holiness no longer apply to NT Christians. Leviticus 20:9 orders death to children for cursing their parents? Do we abide by that today, NO! We are under a NEW LAW!

I think Ray answered this incorrectly. Ray went on to explain that cursing parents is still indeed a sin.  Aaron (the gay man) was not contesting this notion.  I think what Aaron was saying, is that we no longer order death to children today if we curse our parents - NOT the actual act of cursing our parents.



Yes, the bible is anti-homosexual. It's also plainly anti-sexual,  anti-women, anti-shellfish, anti-polyester, and anti-beard trimming... Etc, depending on the book and era it was written.
Thank God for Grace then!

 I prefer to ask what  the bible is "pro" for.

The bible makes it clear that love, compassion, and forgiveness are the human traits I should be focusing on.

 
Just wanted to point it out.

[Joel]

Paul was inspired to write this in his letter to the Romans, and I think it fits this thread as well.
Romans 12:1-2 I Beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.
4-5
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Joel

[Samson]

I don't want to veer into that Responsibility versus Accountability

Thanks Samson.  I apologize.  I ask everyone to please forgive my post in here.  

The earlier letter to Ray from "Grace" was not mine....it was another Grace....that's weird.

Grace

Another Grace, hmmm. Perhaps one of us has a stalker albeit a very good hacker to masquerade. A stalker... ...oh, my, my! 

I guess so....I've never written Ray a letter about smoking.....emails are easy enough to trace....I wrote him only once and it had nothing to do with smoking.....I just found it interesting that email was from someone named "grace" also.    Perhaps, I should change my nic in here....lol.

Purely Coincidental on My part, but, as we are taught, not Coincidental from God's perspective,  .