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Author Topic: Today in paradise?  (Read 8913 times)

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chumkin

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2006, 03:25:31 PM »

in luke it does not say today, it say to day,

lets translate chumkin style :D


on this day you will be with me in paridise.  what day????

Hemera

of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom


i could be wrong, but  you know me :P ;D ::)


but seeing this Jesus actully used the lest  amount of words he had to. he couldnt very well explain ressurection to the  guy.

he just got done teaching psalms 22, so he simply said" on hemera youll  be in  paridise.

I don't think I understand this interpretation, but that is nothing new. I get lost quite often.
In Luke, to day was translated from the Greek word semeron, which means "this very day". Not from the word hemera.
Ray's answer seemed much clearer to me. The comma was in the wrong place. Jesus told the thief today, that he would be in paradise with Him some time in the future.

Tim




tim,
 you are correct, but  when i study the word i go to the root and lok at all of it.

i could be wrong, but when looking into greek and how its been transliterated, i like to go deeper.

at crosswalk even the word hell  says its
gevenna of Hebrew origin (01516) and (02011)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Geenna 1:657,113
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
gheh'-en-nah      Noun Feminine 
 
 Definition
Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
 
FROM:
Hinnom None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hin-nome'      Proper Name Location 
 
 Definition
Hinnom http://= "lamentation"
a valley (deep and narrow ravine) with steep, rocky sides located southwest of Jerusalem, separating Mount Zion to the north from the hill of evil counsel' and the sloping rocky plateau of the 'plain of Rephaim' to the south



Jer 7:31
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnomhttp://, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart



sorry for the confusion.
 

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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2006, 05:16:55 PM »

I know the dead are unconscious. I have written 10 chapters concerning the subject. However, I am thinking logically. My detractors will say, "Why did Jesus, who was in utter pain, nailed to a cross, add an extra word to his sentence, drain himself of extra breath, if the word did not have any significance or add to the emphasis of his message? Why bother saying 'today' if he did not mean that day. It is obvious he was saying it that very day."

By quoting other (only 2) translations, all the detractor must say is that I am using other translations to support my beliefs.


Oh boy don't the detractors like this one! :)

Prarrydog pretty much nailed it when he said:
Quote from: Prarrydog
The answer to your puzzle lies in the scriptures.  What do the scriptures support.  Are people dead right now or are they in paradise?

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they will die,
      but the dead know nothing;
       they have no further reward,
       and even the memory of them is forgotten.


But as you say, this might not stop them. So then ask where did jesus go when he died. Did he go to paradise?

Not according to the scripture:

1 Pet. 3:18-20,
  • "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."

Jesus died in the flesh, but was made alive in the spirit (he was the firstborn of the dead) And where did he go? (You might ask) Was it paradise or "prison?"  Prision! Really, doesn't sound much like paradise to me!  :)

What can they say, does it matter? You have given them the truth and yet they refuse to hear. This is God's work my friend, for even you can lead a horse to water bu not make him drink. Don't fret it. :)

With Love,

Darren
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 05:18:32 PM by YellowStone »
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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2006, 06:33:22 PM »

I know the dead are unconscious. I have written 10 chapters concerning the subject. However, I am thinking logically. My detractors will say, "Why did Jesus, who was in utter pain, nailed to a cross, add an extra word to his sentence, drain himself of extra breath, if the word did not have any significance or add to the emphasis of his message? Why bother saying 'today' if he did not mean that day. It is obvious he was saying it that very day."

By quoting other (only 2) translations, all the detractor must say is that I am using other translations to support my beliefs.


Oh boy don't the detractors like this one! :)

Prarrydog pretty much nailed it when he said:
Quote from: Prarrydog
The answer to your puzzle lies in the scriptures.  What do the scriptures support.  Are people dead right now or are they in paradise?

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they will die,
      but the dead know nothing;
       they have no further reward,
       and even the memory of them is forgotten.


But as you say, this might not stop them. So then ask where did jesus go when he died. Did he go to paradise?

Not according to the scripture:

1 Pet. 3:18-20,
  • "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."

Jesus died in the flesh, but was made alive in the spirit (he was the firstborn of the dead) And where did he go? (You might ask) Was it paradise or "prison?"  Prision! Really, doesn't sound much like paradise to me!  :)

What can they say, does it matter? You have given them the truth and yet they refuse to hear. This is God's work my friend, for even you can lead a horse to water bu not make him drink. Don't fret it. :)

With Love,

Darren

Prison refers to Christ preaching through Noah...
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2006, 11:49:46 PM »

Nightmare Sasuke said: "I know the dead are unconscious. I have written 10 chapters concerning the subject. However, I am thinking logically. My detractors will say, "Why did Jesus, who was in utter pain, nailed to a cross, add an extra word to his sentence, drain himself of extra breath, if the word did not have any significance or add to the emphasis of his message? Why bother saying 'today' if he did not mean that day. It is obvious he was saying it that very day."

By quoting other (only 2) translations, all the detractor must say is that I am using other translations to support my beliefs."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nightmare,

Ask your detractors, what's the point of the RESURRECTION ( which by definition means to raise the dead) then? If the thief went to Paradise that very day. And also since he was obviously a thief, who's to say he won't try to be a thief in "Paradise" I mean afterall all he ever did to go to Paradise was utter the right words before drawing his last breath. How does that make him any better than the other thief, who was blaspheming Jesus? Weren't they both theives? How does sending a thief directly to paradise at the last second teach him anything? How did he learn his lesson that way? I mean how stupid could Orthodoxy be? To reward a thief with Paradise for simply uttering a few words. Why you might even say THE THIEF SNUCK HIS WAY INTO PARADISE. 


That's the way I see it,
Sorin
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 11:53:04 PM by Sorin »
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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2006, 12:05:26 AM »

Nightmare Sasuke said: "I know the dead are unconscious. I have written 10 chapters concerning the subject. However, I am thinking logically. My detractors will say, "Why did Jesus, who was in utter pain, nailed to a cross, add an extra word to his sentence, drain himself of extra breath, if the word did not have any significance or add to the emphasis of his message? Why bother saying 'today' if he did not mean that day. It is obvious he was saying it that very day."

By quoting other (only 2) translations, all the detractor must say is that I am using other translations to support my beliefs."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nightmare,

Ask your detractors, what's the point of the RESURRECTION ( which by definition means to raise the dead) then? If the thief went to Paradise that very day. And also since he was obviously a thief, who's to say he won't try to be a thief in "Paradise" I mean afterall all he ever did to go to Paradise was utter the right words before drawing his last breath. How does that make him any better than the other thief, who was blaspheming Jesus? Weren't they both theives? How does sending a thief directly to paradise at the last second teach him anything? How did he learn his lesson that way? I mean how stupid could Orthodoxy be? To reward a thief with Paradise for simply uttering a few words. Why you might even say THE THIEF SNUCK HIS WAY INTO PARADISE. 


That's the way I see it,
Sorin

The thief died to his flesh on the cross, and called upon the name of the Lord to be saved, and the Lord answered his call. Was Paradise immediate? Probably not.
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Sorin

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2006, 12:36:02 AM »

Nightmare said: "The thief died to his flesh on the cross, and called upon the name of the Lord to be saved, and the Lord answered his call. Was Paradise immediate? Probably not."




Right, it does say "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" but if the thief went directly to Paradise on that same day (or after drawing his last breath) then it contradicts too many other scriptures (i.e. the dead no not anything, resurrection, a place of unperception/hades/sheol etc...). So yes, the thief shall
be saved, but this is in the future.


Rev 20:11      And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12      And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead(not the living thieves in paradise) were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13      And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Doesn't that also include the thief? I mean won't he ever be judged according to his works? And if so, then how much sense would it make to allow him to be in Paradise until judgement day, and then send him back to his coprses grave, so he can be resurrected and  judged according to his works? That's why dead until resurrection day is the only thing that makes sense.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2006, 12:39:38 AM by Sorin »
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2006, 08:30:42 AM »

Hello, Night

No one will ever "convince" anyone of these truths....trying to "win" a argument with folks about these truths  is something you will soon find fruitless..

Chris R

Why write a paper with holes in it?

Hi Night,

Are you seriously thinking That by some amazing insight you will write a paper that will encompass all truth?
that there will be no one questioning your insights?

Even the scripture cannot help you there, Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Or  Job 36:26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.

This is why we "learn" righteousness in Isaiah 26:9...As there are none that have understanding of it now, much to our bruised egos, our righteousness is still as filthy rags.

All one needs to do, is just read this forum, and you will quickly see the number of insights that folks have concerning all things.

Peace

Chris R


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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2006, 08:45:23 AM »

Hello, Night

No one will ever "convince" anyone of these truths....trying to "win" a argument with folks about these truths  is something you will soon find fruitless..

Chris R

Why write a paper with holes in it?

Hi Night,

Are you seriously thinking That by some amazing insight you will write a paper that will encompass all truth?
that there will be no one questioning your insights?

Even the scripture cannot help you there, Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Or  Job 36:26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.

This is why we "learn" righteousness in Isaiah 26:9...As there are none that have understanding of it now, much to our bruised egos, our righteousness is still as filthy rags.

All one needs to do, is just read this forum, and you will quickly see the number of insights that folks have concerning all things.

Peace

Chris R

I'm writing a paper explaining how death is unconscious. I aim to win my readers. Is there anything wrong with working hard on something? I'm sure Paul didn't write any of his Epistles in five minutes; to the contrary, he poured his heart and soul into them.

I've learned to think like an Orthodox person for the purpose of defeating their arguements. I'm trying to counter their lame arguements in my paper before they can make them to me in some other way.
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jerry

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2006, 11:51:26 AM »

I think he was saying,I tell you today,he would see him in paradise,I think the coment had more to do with the fact that Jesus was on the cross for our sins on that day,andother way to say it could be I tell because of this sacrifice I have made today,you will be in my faters kindom,there was no actual day of intering it mentioned,but stateing that on that day because of what He did for us all mankind will be in the kingdom,thats just the way I think of it,
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2006, 12:26:35 PM »

Hello,

I was not planning to respond to this question because I am horrible with punctuation and grammar.   I accept Ray's explanation of the comma placement.  Where did Christ go the day he died.  If He didn't go to paradise that day,  then the comma question is moot because the thief would not be with Christ in paradise on that day.   Did He go directly to paradise or did He have to wait three days until his resurrection since he said to touch him not for he had not ascended to the Father?

You are arguing/supporting a point that death is being unconscious.  I presume that this unconsciousness in your opinion lasts until everyone is resurrected together at the same time.  If you haven't already, then you should be prepared to discuss Matthew 17 and the 144, 000 and others discussed early in Revelations.

I know this is off topic but I have always had the impression that upon ressurection we would be spirit entities similar to angels. I could never understand why Christ ascended to the Father rather than just kind of disburse in every direction  or just fade out from the  physical eyesight of everyone. 

I personally think you might be setting yourself up for a true nightmare of frustrations but my prayers are with you in your search for truth and edification

feat

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Falconn003

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2006, 01:50:21 PM »

harryfeet

Well said and put forth......

What more can be said abot this, that has not been argue over by now.

Rodger
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nightmare sasuke

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2006, 03:33:15 PM »

I think he was saying,I tell you today,he would see him in paradise,I think the coment had more to do with the fact that Jesus was on the cross for our sins on that day,andother way to say it could be I tell because of this sacrifice I have made today,you will be in my faters kindom,there was no actual day of intering it mentioned,but stateing that on that day because of what He did for us all mankind will be in the kingdom,thats just the way I think of it,

Makes sense.
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jerry

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2006, 04:24:37 PM »

Thanks mongoos:I went back today and reread luke 23;43 and noticed that Jesus said (verily)I say to you today, so I looked up the word verily(strongs 281, amen) and found it means,amen,so be it,trustworthy,so he said(trust me or so be it or amen you(will)be with me in paradice)or it is finish my work is done the salvation of mankind is finished.....Jerry
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jerry

  • Guest
Re: Today in paradise?
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2006, 07:58:28 PM »

opps that was nightmare not mongoose ;D  jerry
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