bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: In need of some clarification.  (Read 25160 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

zander

  • Guest
In need of some clarification.
« on: June 07, 2011, 04:13:21 PM »

This verse below:

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48)

OK so now i "know" the truths of God.  Not all but some, many, i dont know.  What i mean is i know the ending is going to be good for all and i basically understand what God's will is.

However, as i am still basically human and i sin, does this mean i am in for a harsh time in the LOF because i am not a "avid follower" of the word?  I mean im a normal guy, i do normal things.  I might lie on the odd occasion and do small stuff like that, but ive not killed anyone, robbed a house etc.  The again, neither am i Ray or anyone who is a avid follower.

But at the same time because i "know" the lord's will, what does this mean to me?  Am i screwed?  SHOULD i be therefore like Ray or anyone else who is following God to the tee?

Any help?
Logged

adiamondintheson

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2011, 06:23:33 PM »

This is a really good question... one I've asked myself a number of times.  How does a person know if he falls in the list of 'chosen' ones and does not go through the LOF. 

I have to believe that God looks at the thoughts and intents of the heart.  He knows when we are actively searching for truth... and then applying it.  In looking at Romans I do have to believe that there is something that is 'required' of us... other than just falling back on the fact that 'all will be saved'... Romans 12:1-3 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The fact that Romans 6:1-2 says: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

So in my mind... there has to be an accountability for the choices we make... to lie or not to lie... to sin or not to sin... and if we do our best to follow after His will and His ways. 

Don't know if I'm right about my thinking on this, and if not... I truly would like to know too. 

Thanks for any help in this whole thing.
Connie
Logged

Samson

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2011, 07:07:27 PM »


So in my mind... there has to be an accountability for the choices we make... to lie or not to lie... to sin or not to sin... and if we do our best to follow after His will and His ways. 

Yes Connie, Your above quote is accurate, We are accountable for all Our choices. We make many choices every day, However, all of the choices We make are the result of CAUSES, whether internal or external. God is the Author of All CAUSES that took place in the past, are taking place in the present and will take place in the future. Due to the fact individuals desire to Sin, they are accountable for their Sins, because they wanted to commit them. God is responsible for undoing the affects of all the Sins that were ever committed, because He created us with the capacity to Sin and as a result of Our sins, We experience Evil, the consequences of Our Wicked acts or others experience Evil as the result of Our Sins. In the present Age, the majority of Mankind commit Sin with no remorse or repentance. Joe Hillsbororiver Posted a good illustration or example regarding ones showing True remorse versus someone mainly upset about getting caught & being sad about the inevitable consequences.

Sometimes We make CHOICES that turn out bad, CHOICES We might have decided to make at the time, thinking that choice was the best choice and results of even that type of choice has consequences that we didn't anticipate. God's Chosen Elect commit individual Sins, but Sin doesn't have Dominion over them or reign in their lives or becomes a practice.

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
1Co 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11  And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Jn 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:12  I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

                             Kind Regards, Samson.
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2011, 10:43:56 PM »


Hi Zander,

Quote
But at the same time because i "know" the lord's will, what does this mean to me?

Luke 12:47  And that servant who knew his lord's will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
v. 48  But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I think that part in bold is the key to what you are asking. It's like the parable of the talents, the more knowledge one receives the more that is expected from them.

You know John, it is true that only God can draws anyone to Himself, but once we have our eyes opened to this truth, which there is no greater reward a human being can receive, it is incomprehensible to think one would settle for the Lake of fire, which is a time of God's wrath and indignation. Even though it is God who decides, He puts the desire in us and we will go through the motions and carry it out. So we should run the race with all we have, because we want the better resurrection, not the Lake of fire.

Rom 2:5-6  But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each according to his works;

Isa 13:6  Howl! For the day of Jehovah is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
v. 7  Therefore all hands shall be faint, and every man's heart shall melt;
v. 8  and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them. They shall be in pain like a woman who travails. They shall be amazed at one another, their faces like flames.
v. 9  Behold, the day of Jehovah comes, cruel and with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land waste; and He shall destroy its sinners out of it.

Of course we should seek to be in the first resurrection, as there is a huge difference if you are in the first resurrection or the Lake of fire. Why would anybody think the Lake of fire is acceptable if you have the chance to be in the first resurrection? Sure you will be saved in the end, but as Ray has said the Lake of fire will not be a walk in the park.

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm ----------
There is coming a time of severe judgment upon sinning mankind. It will not be a walk in the park for any of them. God will purge them all with the fires of His Spirit. But then, all mankind will be saved.
---------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 09:53:49 AM by Kat »
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2011, 11:22:37 PM »


Hi Zander,

Quote
But at the same time because i "know" the lord's will, what does this mean to me?


Luke 12:47  And that servant who knew his lord's will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
v. 48  But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I think that part in bold is the key to what you are asking. The thing is that those that are given this truth are no longer ignorant and deceived and will be held accountable for what they know. It's like the parable of the talents, the more one is blessed to receive the more that is expected from them.

You know John, it is true that only God can draws anyone to Himself, but once we have our eyes opened to this truth, which there is no greater reward a human being can receive, it is incomprehensible to settle for the Lake of fire, which is a time of God's wrath and indignation. Even though it is God who decides, He puts the desire in us and we will go through the motions and carry it out. So we should run the race with all we have, because we do not want to settle for the Lake of fire.

Rom 2:5-6  But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each according to his works;

Isa 13:6  Howl! For the day of Jehovah is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
v. 7  Therefore all hands shall be faint, and every man's heart shall melt;
v. 8  and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them. They shall be in pain like a woman who travails. They shall be amazed at one another, their faces like flames.
v. 9  Behold, the day of Jehovah comes, cruel and with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land waste; and He shall destroy its sinners out of it.

Of course we should seek to be in the first resurrection, as there is a huge difference if you are in the first resurrection or the Lake of fire. Why would anybody think the Lake of fire is acceptable if you have the chance to be in the first resurrection? Sure you will be saved in the end, but as Ray has said the Lake of fire will not be a walk in the park.

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm ----------
There is coming a time of severe judgment upon sinning mankind. It will not be a walk in the park for any of them. God will purge them all with the fires of His Spirit. But then, all mankind will be saved. This occurs at the white throne judgment, not when Christ returns to reign on the earth.
---------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat



Hi Kat,

I could be wrong, but I believe I received my understanding from Ray's teaching in the Lake of Fire articles, which I was rereading yesterday.

It is true that the phrase Lake of Fire is referring to the end time judgment.  However, Ray has taught that Fire is symbolic of God.  We all will go through a judgment by Fire (God) whether it is now or in the Lake of Fire judgment.  "Our God is a consuming Fire."  Also, "God is no respecter of persons".

All will be judged by Fire (God), whether now or later.  "Judgment is now on the House of God", and it is a judgment by Fire.  Fire is not a bad thing because it symbolically refers to God.  God (Fire) is spiritually burning out all that is evil or wrong in His people, and is thereby forming His jewels.

Further, as you know, there is no free will.  We do not decide which resurrection we are in.  God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection.  It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection.  You either will be, or you will not be.  The Potter has already decided.

If any of us are to be in the 1st Resurrection, then God will give us both the will and the to do (works) to make it.  Jesus is our Savior.  It all depends on Him.  Our own will and works cannot save an ant.  But with His Spirit in us, then we can do all things; we will then have the will and the to do (works) to make it into the 1st Resurrection.

If my understanding is wrong, I am willing to change.  But it has to be by the Spirit of God, two or three Scriptures please, with a spiritual match to a spiritual match.  

So, if I have misspoken, then show me precisely my error.  That is if you have the time or inclination.  I am in no hurry.  I am not being contentious, but what I have written above is my current understanding of this topic.  Peace.

John
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 01:03:56 AM by John from Kentucky »
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2011, 12:30:05 AM »

I am now even more confident in what I wrote above.  See Ray's third article in the Lake of Fire series, "Judgment By Fire Must Begin at the House Of God".

It is filled with Scriptures, which are rightly divided.  The judgment by fire of the Elect now is similar to the Lake of Fire judgment of the world at the end of the ages.  The Greek word for fire is the same (Pur) for both judgments.

God is a consuming Fire.  His standards are the same for all mankind, both now and later------Perfection.  We all must become perfect just like our Father in Heaven.  Perfection is achieved by judgment by fire (symbolically).  The Fire is God.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 12:40:27 AM by John from Kentucky »
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2011, 01:23:08 AM »


Hi John,

Quote
It is true that the phrase Lake of Fire is referring to the end time judgment.  However, Ray has taught that Fire is symbolic of God.  We all will go through a judgment by Fire (God) whether it is now or in the Lake of Fire judgment.  "Our God is a consuming Fire."  Also, "God is no respecter of persons".

All will be judged by Fire (God), whether now or later.  "Judgment is now on the House of God", and it is a judgment by Fire.  Fire is not a bad thing because it symbolically refers to God.  God (Fire) is spiritually burning out all that is evil or wrong in His people, and is thereby forming His jewels.

I would explain this in my own words, but you know how I love to post excerpts of Ray's  :)

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ----------------------------

"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).

It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).

I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).

When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation. Here then is how, on whom, and when God pours out His indignation:

"Progeny of vipers! Who intimates to you to be fleeing from the impending indignation?" (Matt. 3:7).

"For God’s indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men ..." (Rom. 1:18).

"Yet, in accord with your hardness and unrepentant heart you are hoarding for yourself indignation in the day of indignation and revelation of the just judgment of God ..." (Rom. 2:5).

"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him" (Rom. 5:9).

"Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation ..." (Rom. 9:22).

"Being at peace with all mankind, you are not avenging yourselves, beloved, but be giving place to His indignation, for it is written, "Mine is vengeance! I will repay! The Lord is saying" (Rom. 12:19).

"Let no one be seducing you with empty words, for because of these things the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness" (Eph. 5:6).

"Deaden, then, your members that are on the earth: prostitution, uncleanness, passion, evil desire and greed, which is idolatry, because of which the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness ..." (Col. 3:5-6).

"Wherefore, ‘I am disgusted with this generation, and said, Ever are they straying in heart; Yet they know not My ways,’ As I swear in My indignation, If they shall be entering into My rest ...!" (Heb. 3:10-11).

"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who is sitting on the throne, and from the indignation of the Lambkin, for the great day of Their indignation came, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:17).

"And the nations are angered, and Thy indignation came, and the era for the dead to be judged, and to give their wages to Thy slaves, the prophets, and to the saints and to those fearing Thy name, the small and the great, and to blight those who are blighting the earth" (Rev. 11:18-19).

"If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin" (Rev. 14:10).

"And Babylon the great is brought to remembrance in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of His indignation" (Rev. 16:19).

"And He is treading the wine trough of the fury of the indignation of God, the Almighty" (Rev. 19:16).

There are the Greek Scriptures on indignation. Notice that it always comes from God. It is poured out in vengeance upon the unrepentant, the stubborn, the unjust and irreverent, those who worship the beast, etc. Never is God’s indignation poured out on His SAINTS! Not the Gentile saints and not the Jewish saints. The saints of Israel have not "been appointed to indignation", they are not "of the night," they will not "be overtaken as a thief," they are a part of "all the saints," I Thes. 2:14 and 3:13.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Quote
Further, as you know, there is no free will.  We do not decide which resurrection we are in.  God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection.  It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection.  You either will be, or you will not be.  The Potter has already decided.

This is true, BUT we do not know what God has decided.
It sounds like you are saying I might as well just sit back and wait on God, because God has already decide and nothing I do will make a difference. Since I don't know what God has decided (regardless of which one I will actually be in), but since I don't know which one it will be, I am going to shot for the first. I know it's not by my own effort, but where do you think I get the will and determination from? I would think it's a lackadaisical attitude that is of more concern. Anyway that's what I'm thinking on this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Logged

DougE6

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2011, 01:52:00 AM »


I have to say I agree with everything in Kats last post. I don't see anywhere in the New Testament where a lackadaisical attitude concerning salvation (which means to ESCAPE the Lake of Fire, not go through it) is condoned. Everything I see written is COMPLETELY the opposite. The New Testament is written for us to, by faith, follow Jesus in this life, go through our LOVING judgements from God, and then to be resurrected to rule with Christ to bring all the rest of creation into subjection.  It is not going to be easy to go through that subjection, which will not be by faith, but by an iron scepter.  And even if you are one of those who are beaten with only a few stripes, Oh what a huge loss, to miss out on the Kingdom of God.  That is what missing the First resurrection and going through the Lake of Fire means...you are MISSING OUT on the Kingdom of God. Oh, the end, the final end, the consumation, as far forward in time as the biblical eye can see, that will be glorious, for all, but to miss out on the Kingdom, on Jesus? God forbid. I will never stop hungering for that more than anything else this life can offer.

Mat 13:40  Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
Mat 13:41  The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42  and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43  Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Mat 13:44  "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Mat 13:45  "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
Mat 13:46  who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
Mat 13:47  "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind.
Mat 13:48  When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad.
Mat 13:49  So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50  and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Logged

gmik

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 02:05:29 AM »

I tend to think more like John and Zander and Joe on this.  WE aren't the wicked that God is angry at.  We are believers.  We are truth seekers and rejoice in that truth.

Jesus and Paul told many people to just go, sin no more, live your lives, love your neighbor....Paul didn't even tell many people to be like him and be a missionary to the entire world. that super Christian I have always tried to be like at church is impossible.

Zander, we may not be called to be the "Rays" of this world...but we have a guide to follow-the Bible-Paul talks alot about day to day living. Paul sinned a lot too..(Oh wretched man that I am)..well I cant compaire myself to him either.

Just being an agree-er to Ray's writings does not get us in the first.  Doug and Kat, sorry, but those scriptures don't speak at all to me tonite-maybe I am just in a mood---oops not spiritual so I can't be in the first??? They don't edify the saints.  I don't feel God is angry at me at all- He loves me no matter what I do and If I walk thru that pond of purification He said in Psalms He will be with me.

imho
Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4311
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2011, 03:20:18 AM »

Hi Zander.

This is a parable that you've quoted part of.  We know (or ought to know) that this means it refers to the many and the few.  I was almost persuaded at one point to believe that the 'many' was the whole world outside of the elect.  Then Ray wrote his rebuttal of 23 minutes in Hell and was kind enough to include illustrations so that even the weak minded like me could return to what I first believed.  The ones 'given much' who will recieve 'many stripes' are not the Elect of God.  They are not the lost and sinful world.  They are the church.  They are only the Church and nothing but the church.  They are the ones we came from, and some of us (like Paul) were even leaders in those congregations.  Read the parables in that chapter again with that thought and see if it doesn't make more sense?  Are the elect of God "beating the maidens and youths"?  I don't think so.

To the extent that I am OUT OF HER, I am IN HIM.  The world can't say that.  Only the few.

As far as your sins go, if you can stop them, do.  But as Ray says, God will give you the desire to stop sinning long before He gives you the ability.  Right now, you may just have a fuzzy little wish to maybe one day actually want to stop.  I don't know.  God is God.

There's so much to know that won't fit in a forum post.  Keep reading what Ray wrote and take what the forum says with due caution.

Hang in there.  Study.   
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2011, 11:37:45 AM »

I think we may be assuming an 'all or nothing' mentality when it comes to judgment in the next age. Not everyone to be judged in the next age LOF will be judged with wrath & indignation.

Jesus only heavily reprimanded the leaders of the church, not the blind masses. We have to remember that most non-believers didn't freely choose to be non-believers, but rather they were/are blinded [Matt 13:11, John 12:40, 2 Cor 4:4].

Even those who sit in church pews each Sunday and give an 'Amen' to all the souls they believe will be cast into a literal Hell, do so out of ignorance. Almost all would repent just as fast as Paul if there minds were opened at any time.

Those who know the truths of God, but deny them for their own personal gain, will be the ones judged with wrath & indignation. Not because they freely chose to me stubborn, but like Pharaoh, God has hardened their hearts to show His great signs & wonders [Ex 7:1-3].



Marques
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2011, 01:45:50 PM »


I most surely believe that the judgment in the next age will be justly administered according to our works. Not all will feel the harshness of His wrath, because God is always fair and just.

Pro 24:12  If thou sayest, Behold, we knew not this; Doth not He that weigheth the hearts consider it? And He that keepeth thy soul, doth not He know it? And shall not He render to every man according to his work?

Rom 2:14-16  For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law; who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending, in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.

Rev 22:12  And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.
Everyone will give account for themselves before the Almighty and He will most certainly know what judgment each deserves.

All will be accountable for whatever the intent of their heart was in the deeds they have done when they lived. Those that take pleasure in evil (and I do believe there are people that do) will be dealt with much more harshness, as it needs to be. There shall be babies and children resurrected and surely we know they will not recieve wrath, but to be raised up in gentle love and care.

But for those of us that are shown this truth now, you are in the race for the first resurrection! I just don't see how anybody would sit back and think the second resurrection would be okay. I am not saying anyone is not doing the best they can according to how God works in you, but it's the attitude. I just want to encourage us all to have great desire and zeal to be a part of the first resurrection.

Rom 12:9  Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
v. 10  Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.
v. 11  Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
v. 12  Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.

Heb 12:1  Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Logged

daywalker

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2011, 01:53:44 PM »


Further, as you know, there is no free will.  We do not decide which resurrection we are in.  God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection.  It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection.  You either will be, or you will not be.  The Potter has already decided.

John

Hey John,

I would have to respectfully disagree with your above highlighted statement. Yes, it is true that "all is of God" and only God knows who are His, but I would hardly accuse our Apostle Paul of practicing this "total futile exercise":

Phillippians 3:8-11:
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.


I don't think anyone here would argue that Paul is referring to the first resurrection (i.e. the resurrection of the just). Paul 'gave it his all' every single day of his apostleship wanting, striving, doing all the he could so that "by any means possible" he could "attain" (achieve, gain) a spot in the first resurrection. Personally, I cannot imagine knowing all that I now know and yet NOT "wanting" to be in the first resurrection and be one of the many "saviors" on Mt. Zion (Obadiah 1:21)!

Daywalker  8)
Logged

Rene

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1531
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2011, 02:16:35 PM »


It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection.  You either will be, or you will not be.  The Potter has already decided.



I would like to exercise my right to "futility" by hoping to be in the 1st Reseurrection. ;D

René
Logged

onelovedread

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2011, 02:38:32 PM »

Does the phrase "Judgment is now on the House of God", apply to the House of Israel, as Peter (1 Peter 4:17) was writing these words to mostly Jews, or does it mean the Church or Paul's disciples(to whom he never used this dsignation)?
Logged

JohnMichael

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2011, 03:05:32 PM »

Interesting note on the lazze faire attitude:


Rev 3:16  So then because thou art lukewarm [G5513], and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

G5513
χλιαρός
chliaros
khlee-ar-os'
From χλίω chliō (to warm); tepid: - lukewarm.

Tepid: characterized by a lack of force or enthusiasm

Scriptural Match:

Pro 18:9  He also that is slothful [H7503] in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.

H7503
רפה
râphâh
raw-faw'
A primitive root; to slacken (in many applications, literally or figuratively): - abate, cease, consume, draw [toward evening], fail, (be) faint, be (wax) feeble, forsake, idle, leave, let alone (go, down), (be) slack, stay, be still, be slothful, (be) weak (-en). See H7495.

Pro 10:4  He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.

Mat 25:26  His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27  Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 03:18:22 PM by JohnMichael »
Logged

gmik

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2011, 03:28:13 PM »

Isn't that a metaphor?  Again, he wasn't talking to us! (I don't believe)

Zander, John, and I are certainly not speaking about laissez faire.  I can read Zander's pain in his post.  It is all of God anyway what sins he helps us overcome and the ones he doesn't.

Who made Paul the way He was? God did. Paul was a BULL - not many like him since either.  Can't compare ourselves.  but even he said in Rom 7:24..Oh wretched man that I am.

Lets not hi -jack Zander's thread and his plea for understanding.,

Lukewarm doesn';t apply to most anyone on this forum....we have all given up a great deal---family, friends, churches, fellowships, (potlucks :D), and so on.

also, we are all at different points on our journey....what excites the newbie may not excite someone who has been around this for years...doesn't mean we are lukewarm.

imho
Logged

John from Kentucky

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 903
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2011, 03:45:48 PM »


Further, as you know, there is no free will.  We do not decide which resurrection we are in.  God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection.  It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection.  You either will be, or you will not be.  The Potter has already decided.

John

Hey John,

I would have to respectfully disagree with your above highlighted statement. Yes, it is true that "all is of God" and only God knows who are His, but I would hardly accuse our Apostle Paul of practicing this "total futile exercise":

Phillippians 3:8-11:
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.


I don't think anyone here would argue that Paul is referring to the first resurrection (i.e. the resurrection of the just). Paul 'gave it his all' every single day of his apostleship wanting, striving, doing all the he could so that "by any means possible" he could "attain" (achieve, gain) a spot in the first resurrection. Personally, I cannot imagine knowing all that I now know and yet NOT "wanting" to be in the first resurrection and be one of the many "saviors" on Mt. Zion (Obadiah 1:21)!

Daywalker  8)


Hi Daywalker,

No need to be respectful.   ;D ;D ;D

Everything Paul was or ever will be, all came from God.  Nothing came from Paul.

Paul was an arrogant little snotty religious fanatic who believed strongly in the Law of Moses.  He thought he was good by the religious things he did.  He was so good that he also thought he would be in the resurrection of the just, before his conversion.

Paul consented to the murder of Stephen, and watched over the personal effects of the murderers, and watched them murder Stephen.  Paul persecuted the Church of God.  He killed, tortured, and imprisoned followers of Jesus, both men and women.

When Jesus decided enough was enough, He knocked Paul on his rear end and converted him, in a few seconds.  Paul had nothing to say about it.  Paul didn't get to vote on whether he wanted to follow Jesus or not.

Jesus made Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles.  Paul didn't get a vote.  The above scripture you quote also came from God.  Paul's zeal to obtain the 1st resurrection also came from God.  Paul didn't work it up himself.  As Paul himself knew, and as he was led to write, both the will and the to do came from God.

So when I used the word "futile", it was with Paul in mind.  If Paul brought about everything that he did, on his own, then I guess it would also be possible for us to decide we will be in the 1st resurrection, and to follow God's ways.

God knows who His Elect are.  He selects them.  And He brings about their conversion now, by His judgments by fire.  Spiritual Fire is a good thing.  Our God is a consuming Fire.  He is the Vine; we are the fruit.  It is all from God.  Jesus is Savior, not us.  Everything we are or ever hope to be, all comes from Him.

John
Logged

JohnMichael

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2011, 04:28:40 PM »

Isn't that a metaphor?  Again, he wasn't talking to us! (I don't believe)

He was addressing the 7 churches, so He was talking to us.
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: In need of some clarification.
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2011, 04:47:18 PM »


Hi onelovedread,

Quote
Does the phrase "Judgment is now on the House of God", apply to the House of Israel, as Peter (1 Peter 4:17) was writing these words to mostly Jews, or does it mean the Church or Paul's disciples(to whom he never used this dsignation)?


This might help with your question.

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ---------------

In Ezekiel 14:7 we read:

"For every one of the house of Israel [WE {Gentiles} are now the circumcision of God, Phil. 3:3. WE {Gentile believers} are the true Jew, Romans 2:28-29. WE {Gentiles & a remnant of racial Israel} are the spiritual Israel of God, Gal. 6:16] or of the stranger that sojourns in Israel, which separates himself from Me, and sets up HIS IDOLS IN HIS HEART…"


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm -------------------------

"For the time is come that judgment must begin [this began two thousand years ago] at the House of God..." (I Pet. 4:17).

The JUDGMENT, COUNCIL, GEHENNA, AND PRISON (Matt. 5) of Christ's Sermon on the Mount are for US; Christ's disciples; those chosen; the faithful; the overcomers; the few; the elect. And these judgments are NOW in each generation of the chosen few throughout this Church age.

The Gospels were written for us. The judgments they contain are for us. Jesus says unto us, that we are in danger of judgment, council, gehenna fire, and prison, if WE do not spiritually obey from the heart even the least of Christ's commandments.
v
v
Yes, of course, the whole world of unbelievers and ungodly will experience God's Divine consuming fire-His Gehenna fire, but not before it has first purged all of His Elect, the called and Chosen of the House of God. Which judgment the "House of God" has been experiencing now for 2000 years.

These instructions are decidedly not written for the "Many [who] will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, ...in Thy name done many wonderful works?... I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me..." (Matt. 7:22-23).

Only the living experience "Gehenna fire." And during this life, It is rather the living chosen elect of Jesus Christ who go through "Gehenna fire."

"If you be reproached [insulted] for the name of Christ, happy are you... yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf, for the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God..." (I Pet. 4:14, 16-17).

We must all receive reproaches from men, but judgment from God. And God purges us from the offenses of our carnal mind by "His Divine consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.06 seconds with 20 queries.