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[zander]

Some intersting points.

This is what im getting so far and theyre different:

a) That although i "know" of the basics truths, i am not deserving necessarily of "many stripes" as i am not purposefully committing acts of sin, "knowing" that everything will (eventually) be OK.  I sin yes, but as i say, no more than the average human being if you like.  The many stripes refers to (according to gmik) the Church or someone who knows the truths of God and goes right against them, like badly against them, worse than the average human being.

b) That i do "know" the basic truths of God and therefore it is my responsibility to want to be in the first resurrection (regardless of whether i end up there) and if i do not aspire to that, i will be part of the "many stripes" brigade.

As i say, im a normal guy, i do normal things.  I have been given Gods understanding about something quite profound.  However, as of yet, i have no real desire to want to be in the 1st resurection.  Sorry, i cant help that.

Im still confused lol

[Dave in Tenn]

One last comment for Zander (thanks, Gena).

When I think of stripes these days, I don't think of punishment--so many stripes for one bad behaviour, so many for another.  More for worse, less for not so bad.  This may disappoint Antaiwan   , but to my mind, the 'beast rising out of the sea' that is me is not some grotesque monster out of babylonian fantasy, but just a simple beast of burden--just a donkey carrying a load.  How do you get a donkey to move, and to move in the right direction?  You smack it.  "A rod for the back of fools".  

Pro 19:25 You smite a mocker, and a simple man shall become prudent; Reprove one of understanding, and he shall understand more knowledge."

Pro 19:28 A worthless witness mocks at judgment, And the mouth of the wicked swallows down lawlessness."

Pro 19:29 Judgments are prepared for mockers And beatings for the body of the stupid.

We're going to get spiritually beaten until we're no longer stupid.  These truths you know are not petty doctrinal theological curiosities for chin-strokers.  Just the fact that you would NOT sentence a man to eternal hell-fire makes you a better servant than any minister of that 'other gospel', no matter how impeccably 'moral' he might be.

Now:  

2Pe 1:5-8  Because of this, make every effort to add integrity to your faith; and to integrity add knowledge; to knowledge add self-control; to self-control add endurance; to endurance add godliness; to godliness add brotherly affection; and to brotherly affection add love.  If you have these qualities and they are increasing, it demonstrates that your knowledge about our Lord Jesus Christ is living and productive.

And if not?

2Pe 1:9  If these qualities aren't present in your life, you're shortsighted and have forgotten that you were cleansed from your past sins.

Don't forget you've been cleansed from your past sins.  To the extent that you have come out of her (babylon), you will not recieve of her plagues.

 

    

[daywalker]

Hey again John,

We are in agreement that all is of God. Of course Paul's desire to finish the race came from God, not from himself. We do not disagree* here at all. In fact it is this very truth that our desire or "wish to be in the 1st Resurrection" does come from God, that I cannot understand how you would use the phrase "total futile exercise" to describe it?

To me (correct me if I misunderstand your intent) it's like saying it is a total futile exercise to love my wife, because it is God Who gave me this love I have for her. But I know that my love for my wife came from God. That doesn't mean I don't want to continuing loving and finding ways to show her my love. In the same way, I know that my desire to be the first resurrection came from God just as my faith and every good thing that I have. So why then would I turn around and say that this "wish" which came from God is "futile"? Does God give us "futile" things? Why would God give me this desire to be in the 1st Resurrection if this wish is "futile"? That's a slap in His Face from my perspective!

Daywalker  


Edit: typ-o.. said "agree" but meant "disagree"... it happens  

Further, as you know, there is no free will.  We do not decide which resurrection we are in.  God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection.  It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection.  You either will be, or you will not be.  The Potter has already decided.

John

Hey John,

I would have to respectfully disagree with your above highlighted statement. Yes, it is true that "all is of God" and only God knows who are His, but I would hardly accuse our Apostle Paul of practicing this "total futile exercise":

Phillippians 3:8-11:
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

I don't think anyone here would argue that Paul is referring to the first resurrection (i.e. the resurrection of the just). Paul 'gave it his all' every single day of his apostleship wanting, striving, doing all the he could so that "by any means possible" he could "attain" (achieve, gain) a spot in the first resurrection. Personally, I cannot imagine knowing all that I now know and yet NOT "wanting" to be in the first resurrection and be one of the many "saviors" on Mt. Zion (Obadiah 1:21)!

Daywalker  

Hi Daywalker,

No need to be respectful.  

Everything Paul was or ever will be, all came from God.  Nothing came from Paul.

Paul was an arrogant little snotty religious fanatic who believed strongly in the Law of Moses.  He thought he was good by the religious things he did.  He was so good that he also thought he would be in the resurrection of the just, before his conversion.

Paul consented to the murder of Stephen, and watched over the personal effects of the murderers, and watched them murder Stephen.  Paul persecuted the Church of God.  He killed, tortured, and imprisoned followers of Jesus, both men and women.

When Jesus decided enough was enough, He knocked Paul on his rear end and converted him, in a few seconds.  Paul had nothing to say about it.  Paul didn't get to vote on whether he wanted to follow Jesus or not.

Jesus made Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles.  Paul didn't get a vote.  The above scripture you quote also came from God.  Paul's zeal to obtain the 1st resurrection also came from God.  Paul didn't work it up himself.  As Paul himself knew, and as he was led to write, both the will and the to do came from God.

So when I used the word "futile", it was with Paul in mind.  If Paul brought about everything that he did, on his own, then I guess it would also be possible for us to decide we will be in the 1st resurrection, and to follow God's ways.

God knows who His Elect are.  He selects them.  And He brings about their conversion now, by His judgments by fire.  Spiritual Fire is a good thing.  Our God is a consuming Fire.  He is the Vine; we are the fruit.  It is all from God.  Jesus is Savior, not us.  Everything we are or ever hope to be, all comes from Him.

John

[Kat]

Well I think it is a matter of perspective, we all have our own way of looking at things.

John, it seems to me that you look at the hard cold facts and leave it at that. Where as I think of the attitude and emotions that are involved. Yes it is all of God, but the human factor plays a big part, as the work that God is doing in us is for OUR benefit. God's Holy Spirit indwelling is changing everything about us, mainly the way we think in our mind. Paul was not the same person when he was converted that he was as Saul and neither are we. The things that happened to Paul was all of God, but it was to change/convert him, his thinking, to bring him to understand and desire the will of God. So it is with us. God gave Paul great Revelations, so that he could express these truths. I certainly take his teachings to heart.

Php 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

You cannot ignore that, "work out your own salvation," God is doing His work in and through us, to change our thinking.

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.


Zander, we will all be judged now or later. The Scripture are clear that now is the more desirable judgment, not to mention obtaining life eonian.

Heb 12:25  See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, those who refused him that spoke on earth, much more we shall not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from Heaven,
v. 26  whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will not only shake the earth, but also the heavens."

1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
v. 32  But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

There's no quick fix Zander. I wish there was ~ 

 
Arc

[zander]

Yeah im still not clear on this.

Kat says:

"Zander, we will all be judged now or later. The Scripture are clear that now is the more desirable judgment, not to mention obtaining life eonian."

I understand this.  But i dont have the desire to want that now.  This is my point i am trying to make.  Im given this "knowledge", but really i dont know what to do with it.  As i say, im a normal guy, i do normal things.  I am more wary of some sins than i used to be.  However i still have my faults.  And i sometimes think, with these faults and my knowledge, what do i do?  I sometimes swear, i sometimes judge, i am a bit opinionated, i like girls (if yo uknow what i mean lol) but none of this is any more than your average guy.

Just seems unfair if i am going to get hammered for having something i didnt ask for and then having to be something i am not, with it.  Hate to say this but for the first time it feels like when i was taught Church stuff that if i don't do a, b or c i would go to hell, whilst i was thinking "hang on, i cant help what i do.." Is there an answer that makes sense?

[JohnMichael]

Yeah im still not clear on this.

Kat says:

"Zander, we will all be judged now or later. The Scripture are clear that now is the more desirable judgment, not to mention obtaining life eonian."

I understand this.  But i dont have the desire to want that now.  This is my point i am trying to make.  Im given this "knowledge", but really i dont know what to do with it.  As i say, im a normal guy, i do normal things.  I am more wary of some sins than i used to be.  However i still have my faults.  And i sometimes think, with these faults and my knowledge, what do i do?  I sometimes swear, i sometimes judge, i am a bit opinionated, i like girls (if yo uknow what i mean lol) but none of this is any more than your average guy.

Just seems unfair if i am going to get hammered for having something i didnt ask for and then having to be something i am not, with it.  Is there an answer that makes sense?

Zander,

What it sounds like here is your thinking that once you come to the Truth, you're suddenly going to wake up one day no longer desiring any sin whatsoever, righteous in every manner, and spiritually perfect. It doesn't work that way. It's a process. God does it in increments. He brought you to this Truth, and you will grow as He wills - in the timing of His will. We are just to do what we can as He gives us the strength and desire to. Pray, study, etc. He is the one that makes the changes - not us. We can do nothing without Him. Without His influence, we'd be out in the world partying like a rockstar - sinning to high heaven. Just be patient.

Blessings,
John

[John from Kentucky]

Well I think it is a matter of perspective, we all have our own way of looking at things.

John, it seems to me that you look at the hard cold facts and leave it at that. Where as I think of the attitude and emotions that are involved. Yes it is all of God, but the human factor plays a big part, as the work that God is doing in us is for OUR benefit. God's Holy Spirit indwelling is changing everything about us, mainly the way we think in our mind. Paul was not the same person when he was converted that he was as Saul and neither are we. The things that happened to Paul was all of God, but it was to change/convert him, his thinking, to bring him to understand and desire the will of God. So it is with us. God gave Paul great Revelations, so that he could express these truths. I certainly take his teachings to heart.

Php 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

You cannot ignore that, "work out your own salvation," God is doing His work in and through us, to change our thinking.

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.


Zander, we will all be judged now or later. The Scripture are clear that now is the more desirable judgment, not to mention obtaining life eonian.

Heb 12:25  See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, those who refused him that spoke on earth, much more we shall not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from Heaven,
v. 26  whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will not only shake the earth, but also the heavens."

1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
v. 32  But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

I think you got it.  I agree.  I look at cold, hard facts.  I am not that much into emotions, or touchy, feely things.  In fact, too much syrupy emotions makes me sick.  I can't take it.

I try not to waste mental energy on things I cannot control.  That is what I meant when I referred to thoughts about the 1st resurrection as "futile".  I understand that God has already selected the Elect who will be in the 1st resurrection.  Therefore, what I think about it, or who may be there, is irrelevant.  It's not my call.  I don't get a vote.  Why worry or think about something that I do not control?

Likewise, I do not like wars and killings.  I do not like world hunger.  I do not like sickness and disease.  I do not like natural disasters as has recently occurred in Japan and Joplin, MO.  However, since I cannot make things right, I don't worry about such things.  I do take comfort that Jesus is Savior and will make all things right.  I have great peace in that knowledge.

So I think you are correct.  It is all a matter of perspective.  I do not think those of us here have any fundamental disagreements.

John

[zander]

"What it sounds like here is your thinking that once you come to the Truth, you're suddenly going to wake up one day no longer desiring any sin whatsoever, righteous in every manner, and spiritually perfect".

No, i am not thinking this way at all.  I am thinking the exact opposite.  Now i "know" these "truths", how do i deal with it?  I know i am not waking up wanting to change.  I am not changing.  I am not in a place where i want to.  I know i will have to, but that day isnt today.  So whilst i "know" what i know, it seems unfair to get hammered if i dont start to follow it as i should.  As i say, im an average, every day guy.  I dont hate anyone (as far as i know, although i hate anything with Paris Hilton in it..lol)..yuo know what i mean?

Jeez, i sometimes wonder if i'd rather i didnt know what i know.

[JohnMichael]

"What it sounds like here is your thinking that once you come to the Truth, you're suddenly going to wake up one day no longer desiring any sin whatsoever, righteous in every manner, and spiritually perfect".

No, i am not thinking this way at all.  I am thinking the exact opposite.  Now i "know" these "truths", how do i deal with it?  I know i am not waking up wanting to change.  I am not changing.  I am not in a place where i want to.  I know i will have to, but that day isnt today.  So whilst i "know" what i know, it seems unfair to get hammered if i dont start to follow it as i should.  As i say, im an average, every day guy.  I dont hate anyone (as far as i know, although i hate anything with Paris Hilton in it..lol)..yuo know what i mean?

Jeez, i sometimes wonder if i'd rather i didnt know what i know.

I misunderstood then. I'm sorry. God will give you the desire to change when He wants you to start. He brought you to the Truth for a reason, so time will tell how it will start to unfold.

John

[believerchrist100]

"What it sounds like here is your thinking that once you come to the Truth, you're suddenly going to wake up one day no longer desiring any sin whatsoever, righteous in every manner, and spiritually perfect".

No, i am not thinking this way at all.  I am thinking the exact opposite.  Now i "know" these "truths", how do i deal with it?  I know i am not waking up wanting to change.  I am not changing.  I am not in a place where i want to.  I know i will have to, but that day isnt today.  So whilst i "know" what i know, it seems unfair to get hammered if i dont start to follow it as i should.  As i say, im an average, every day guy.  I dont hate anyone (as far as i know, although i hate anything with Paris Hilton in it..lol)..yuo know what i mean?

Jeez, i sometimes wonder if i'd rather i didnt know what i know.

From the FAQ section under "What to Do Now"  (I believe that was basically your question):
Members,

Many times after reading Ray's teachings and coming out of the church, believers wonder 'What should I/We be doing now?' These are a few of the many comments Ray has made regarding what we should be doing, according to the scriptures.



Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,25.msg34.html#msg34):

Dear Scott:
I don't know what you mean by "to do something?"  Just living, is "doing something."  Overcoming is DOING A LOT OF SOMETHING.  But if you mean does God have a work for you in the ministry of spreading the Gospel, I can't answer that.  There are thousands who would wish to "do something" in this life for or in God's Gospel Ministry, but they wouldn't think of giving a penny to aid those who are already "doing something."  Ask God to show you what it is that He wants of you. I assure you that your life will be lead accordingly as God has predestined.
God be with you,

Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4577.msg35182.html#msg35182):

Dear James: I can appreciate you enthusiasm for God's truth, but you also need
to approach your actions with a bit of Scriptural wisdom. If you have a wife and
family, you have a huge obligation to support them. You know what Paul said
about a man not supporting his family being worse than an infidel. So don't be
in a rush to give away all your possessions and hit the streets with a Bible. After
about 72 hours, you will begin to see the folly of your decision. Even I feel
inadequate for the job I am doing, yet I have had a lot more life experience, and
probably study of the Scriptures than many.
 
We are reaching two to three thousand visitors a day at our site, and that would
be hard to duplicate or surpass with a Bible out in the street.  Many dozens of
people have written me over the years desiring to become teachers and preachers.
Some have wanted to come to my home, live with me, and have me be a mentor to
them so that they can teach this gospel to the world. I have never heard from even
one of them since.
 
I know of no where on earth where a dollar goes further in bringing
hundreds of thousands of people to the truths of God, than at bible-truths.com, and
yet we have very very little financial support. I have personally held off on buying
reference books, and other needed expensive materials that would help me in my teaching
and preparation for articles, simply because I didn't want to take away from our main
use of funds, and that is advertising on the major search engines.  I am debt free,
but we live off of social security, that's all.
 
My Web Master and I muse sometimes over what God might let us accomplish if
we had but one week's income from TBN or one of the big money-makers.  As I stated in
my tithing paper:  "Never have so many accomplished so little with so much!"
 
Concerning repenting:  Yes, certainly, we are to repent of our sins (always) as well as
forgive all others for their sins.
 
Just take care of your family for now and keep studying God's Word. If God wants
to use you in some other capacity, it will become evident to you without selling out
on your family.
 
God be with you,
Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4814.msg37171.html#msg37171):

Dear Nate: I get asked this a lot, but there is no easy formula for me to give you. You know that you should obey God. This is the primary thing we must all do. But for me to tell you how to live your life on a daily basis, I'm afraid I can't do.  If you don't know whether you should continue living in the Babylonian Church system, what good would it be for me to tell you that God says, "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE...." (Rev. 18:4)?  If you try to convert your family, friends, and relatives to your new-found truths, they will think you crazy or may even turn on you.  So leave them alone. The way you conduct your life will speak volumes about what you believe, however, clever arguments will convince no one.  Of the tens of thousands of detractors who have tried to contradict my teachings, which I then answered and proved them wrong with the Scriptures, how many do you suppose said: "Oh, okay, now I see it.  I'm sorry. I was deceived. I see now that you do teach the truth"?  Would you believe 2 or 3? That's right--2 or 3 out of tens of thousands.
 
You will face ever-changing challenges in your life--every few seconds, minutes, and hours of every day. You will have to decide how to handle these situations, one at a time. Learn the Truth and then live by the Truth.  Did Jesus teach His apostles how to react to every situation that would confront them after He was gone?  No, no He didn't.  Life is indeed a challenge, and in the final analysis it all comes down to YOU AND GOD.  I am at the same place that you are, Nate.  No one tells me how to solve all my problems. I just obey God and rely on Him to see me through.  Many people want to be teachers after learning a few of the basic truths of God. This is generally a mistake, as it takes more to be a teacher than a desire to teach.  I might desire to be a great singer, or a great speller--the reality is both are totally out of the question.  I am what I am by the grace of God. I realize that most think it is rather scary to try and live a righteous life not knowing exactly what to do and how to do it.  Your darn right it's scary.  Life is scary.  But knowing that there is a loving God Who is carrying out a righteous and wise purpose on this earth is a giant aid to our infirmities.
 
There is no better way to assuage our own inadequacies than to help others with theirs.  I remember when I was going to college back in California, we took a weekend camping trip to the San Bernadino Mountains. One day we climbed this mountain. A couple of chaperone's brought their children. At one place high up the mountain we followed a trail that was precariously close to a cliff with a long drop. I was getting a little nervous. However, close to me was one of the children (a girl of maybe 8 or 9 years), and she was beginning to have a panic attack.  I took her by the hand and put her on the inside and assured her that we would not fall.  My fear left me immediately, and the little girl did just fine also.  I never forgot that experience.  Help and love others, and your life will begin to take on meaning.
God be with you,
Ray


Hope that helped a bit,
Patrick

[Kat]

Zander, it seems you are almost taking knowledge as a bad thing  
We teach our children so they will be able to make good decisions. Then once we have instructed them in something then we expect them to be able to do it. Let's say we show them how to swim, it may take a while but they get it figured out. Now they have knowledge that not only can they enjoy, but could save their life. It would be a very ungrateful child to come to their parents and say, 'I have no use for swimming, what good is it to me? I wish you had not even taught me.'

Think about it, God has given you something very precious, you may not see the good of it right now, but the value of what you know will never diminish. You should hold on to what you have, because if you do not want it He just may take it away from you.

Here is a section of the '05 conference 'What Is The Gospel of The Kingom.'


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.msg50218.html -----

Let me give you something powerful. Everybody has kind of a feeling, they say, ‘well nobody is perfect and I’m not perfect and therefore I’m okay, because nobody is perfect.’ This is the attitudes of Laodiceans, I’m lukewarm. What does God say about lukewarmness?  "I will vomit you out of My mouth."  

There is either light or darkness with God. Jesus Christ says if you are not for me, you are against Me. ‘Well wait there must be something in between, you can be pretty much, maybe not completely.’ No, you are either for Me or against Me. If you are lukewarm you are totally deceived.

Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
v. 15  "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
v. 16  So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth.
v. 17  Because you say, I am rich and increased with goods (‘oh I understand these truths, I know all this, I could teach it, I could write articles on this, I know these things, they are second nature to me’), and have need of nothing; and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked.

Wow, it doesn’t say you are a little deceived, I mean come on. Here is somebody that believes in God, these are members of the church of God, this is the seventh phase, Laodicea. “you say, I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing, and do not know…”  You don’t know you are totally deceived… “that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.”

You are like the emperor that had no clothes on and when somebody says ‘you don’t have any clothes on.’  He get’s angry with you and says beat that servant. The truth of the matter is he doesn’t have any clothes on and you are just trying to save him some embarrassment. But he hates the servant and would whip the servant that would ever suggest such a thing.


                                      HIDDEN TREASURE

Rev 3:18  I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire…

Buy it, that is the hidden treasures. The “gold tried in the fire” is the hidden treasure. Buy it whatever it takes, sell everything you’ve got and buy it. That’s what you want, you want that gold tried in the fire. That’s what you want. You are either for Me or against Me.

Remember in verse 10 James said, “humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord.”  Now back up  in verse 6 notice what it says;

James 4:6  But He gives more grace. Therefore He says, God resists the proud, but He gives grace to the humble.

He resists the proud. If you start to go with these truths… I’m talking about when you left your first love and now you are coming back, if you don’t grow in these truths, God will resist you.  

If you don’t grow you are like the man that took his talent and wrapped it in a napkin and hid it, so it can’t grow. Guess what? You will lose the one talent you had. If you had some abilities and you are not growing, guess what?  God will take them away. He will take them away and you will lose what you had. He will resist the proud.  

Psalms 119:165  Great peace have they who love Your law (and we know that God‘s Law is spiritual), and nothing (not anything) shall offend them.

If you are living by God’s Law, you can’t be offended. You will only pity the poor slob who tries to put you down. If you are not offended, truly not offended, you will be a king who will bring judgment to that person one day. Then they will learn to be humble like you.  

So God has great things in store for the few, the called, the chosen, the humble. The ones that are like little children, just wanting to do the will of their Father.  

Kings - lords - priests - a royal nation - a peculiar people - a special people to God. It’s all at hand, that how close it is, it’s at hand.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[zander]

Im getting some insight here, i think.

I dont want to "lose" what i know.  I mean that would only happen if i literally forgot it, like if i woke up 1 day and God took it away from me, as if i had suffered some form of permanant amnesia.

I still am struggling to understand the many stripes bit though.  As i say, i know what i know.  But what now?  Ive known for about 7 years.  Have i changed in that time?  Not that much.  if anything ive just become more confident.  I am wary of certain sins and think about what i do SOMETIMES - more than i probably used to.  Not always though - as i say, i am a normal human being.  So is it after 7 years of this, as i havent "served" God properly, i am due a harsher treatment?  Just seems unfair, as i have no desire (yet) to change fundamentally.  Im not a very good servant, but not out of spite just out of living normally and just carrying on really from where i left off in 2004

[DougE6]

You know, I really think the Apostle Pauls' imagery of a race is really really appropriate and germane here.  Has God decided in advance who is going to win the 100 meter dash in the next Olympics? We know he has. Is that person, aware he/she has been chosen to win? No, they are not.  Are the putting in all the effort, all the training, all the proper diet, all the rigors of pushing themselves to higher and higher levels of performance? You know they are.  You also know, that WITHOUT this effort, they would NOT win the gold medal. If they just sat back, and never pursued the prize, never pushed themselves to the limit, never went further than they ever had before in regards to effort, in regards to discipline, in regards to desire, they would NOT achieve that gold medal. So Gods calling them to the winners circle INCLUDES all the efforts, all the desire, all the discipline, all that training, to make the body able to do what He has foreordained to happen. 

Why would you think the highest award in the universe is any different? Do you think God is going to give the First Resurrection to those who do not desire to pursue it with all their hearts? Do you think the people who sit in the couch deserve the gold medal, who do not put in the effort? So do you think God is going to let people just waltz in who really don't want to be with Christ more than anything, who do not want to help establish his kingdom more than anything?

1Co 9:24  Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
1Co 9:25  Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

[Joel]

Hey Zander
I know and can relate to what you are saying, feeling, and trying to express in this thread.
I have been in a similar state of mind, but God is bringing me along to the point where I ain't as lukewarm as I use to  be.
It really does take him to put a fire under you. I have read the Bible through a number of times, and could see myself on many a page, but Was never able to seem to break through to where according to the scriptures I should be, or doing what I thought I should be doing. Flesh, flesh , and more flesh.

I knew what Jesus said to the Church in Laodicea, about being wretched, and miserable , and poor, and blind, and naked. I said yes Lord that is what I am, what are you going to do about that.
I knew in my heart that I still wanted MY will to be done more than his, so if me being honest with God helped to get things moving, and that is what I see in you, that you are being honest and truthful. God wants us to be truthful with ourselves, doesn't help us to be two faced, especially with him.
The scriptures say this in James 1: 17-25
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Hope this is of some benefit to you.
Joel

[cjwood]

kat, the sections you pulled from ray's '05 conference were so timely.  thanks for the boost. 

claudia

[mmijares]

Do you think God is going to give the First Resurrection to those who do not desire to pursue it with all their hearts? Do you think the people who sit in the couch deserve the gold medal, who do not put in the effort? So do you think God is going to let people just waltz in who really don't want to be with Christ more than anything, who do not want to help establish his kingdom more than anything?

No I don't.  Because God, in the first place, did not put the desire in them.
No I don't.  Because God, in the first place, made them just to sit in the couch and not put any effort.
No I don't.  Because God, in the first place, made them just waltz and made them not to want to be with Christ and not to want to help in the kingdom.

Although I doubt it but your statement still sounds that man must be the one or the first to put the desire, to work and not just sit down, and to want to be with Christ.

There is no free will.  It is sometimes hard to understand it though, you know which action comes first or what.  But if we are to understand that the ultimate Cause is God then nothing, absolutely nothing, from our part started something (like the above).  They should be "God-given".

So again, to parrot JFK, why worry?  If God wants or has already chosen me to be in the first resurrection, then He will put the desire, however little I recognize the calling or choosing.  Eventually, I will stand up from my "couch" and work the grace God has put in my heart, however little I understand what I am doing.  Finally I won't just dance and be careless but will run the race God has beset before me, and then finally recognize, understand, and acknowledge that IT IS GOD THAT DOES ALL OF THIS AND NOT ME.

[octoberose]

Zander, do you really want to be a "normal" guy and do " normal" things? Satan is the ruler of this world and the things in it.  When you lie, remember who is the father of lies. Just because you know truths from the Word doesn't mean you are living in Truth. They are two different things. I don't mean to be harsh- I think about this in regards to my own path all the time. But my friend, I don't want to be normal, I want to be peculiar, a light in a dark, dark world. I hope we all continue to be enlightened as God draws us near to Him.

[DougE6]

Questions for self examination..
Do you love righteousness? Do you hate wickedness? Do you want to see righteousness established? Does your own wickedness make you mourn?

Do you love people? I mean deeply. Even in people you disgree with, or are evil.  Can you see past that, do you still love some deep part of them? Can you see them repenting?  Can you see what they could be? Would you like to weep with them, while they repent of their sins and call on Jesus?  Can you even love the deceived ones in the church? Appreciate the good anyone does for Jesus?

Would you like to see evil stomped out of the earth? Does everything about Christ make your heart and spirit soar? Do you love it when you feel His approval? Do you desperately desire to have your first love, with all your new maturity?  Would you defend Christ? Do blasphemers and athiests make you sad, though you never hate them for it, just sad? Do they seem utterly foolish to you?

Are you gradually getting victory over long term sins? Do they have less and less power and hold over you? Does the things of the world, its fame, money, adulation, seem like rubbish?  As great as the knowledge you gain is, on this site, is the love of God even greater to you?  Is the knowledge subordinate to your real love of God, and of others? Do you show this love, often?

Do you know how weak you are? But how strong He is?  Is His strength making you stronger? Do you wish, that you would never sin again?

[Grace]

Zander, do you really want to be a "normal" guy and do " normal" things? Satan is the ruler of this world and the things in it.  When you lie, remember who is the father of lies. Just because you know truths from the Word doesn't mean you are living in Truth. They are two different things. I don't mean to be harsh- I think about this in regards to my own path all the time. But my friend, I don't want to be normal, I want to be peculiar, a light in a dark, dark world. I hope we all continue to be enlightened as God draws us near to Him.

You're right but until God shows you these truths and changes that part of us how can you live in it?  I do know what it means to die daily.  I may not always have known that but I do now.  It's ugly when you see the fleshly part.