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[Grace]

If you don't mind, I would like to answer these questions. (my comments in bold)

Questions for self examination..
Do you love righteousness? YES Do you hate wickedness? YES Do you want to see righteousness established?  Does your own wickedness make you mourn? YES

Do you love people? I mean deeply. Even in people you disgree with, or are evil.  YES, I may get angry but, I ask Him to change me Can you see past that, do you still love some deep part of them? Can you see them repenting? YES  Can you see what they could be? Would you like to weep with them, while they repent of their sins and call on Jesus?  Can you even love the deceived ones in the church? Appreciate the good anyone does for Jesus?YES, 24/7 I think of these things.  That's all I can think about

Would you like to see evil stomped out of the earth? YES, but not the people, sometimes I wants smack them but then I know if I did I would feel so badly I wouldn't dare Does everything about Christ make your heart and spirit soar? I thought so but, now I might just be mad at Him because if he had changed all these things when I was younger perhaps I would still have my husband and he would be alive] Do you love it when you feel His approval? That's all I want Do you desperately desire to have your first love, with all your new maturity?   Would you defend Christ? Do blasphemers and athiests make you sad, though you never hate them for it, just sad? Do they seem utterly foolish to you? [/] YES YES AND YES, sometimes I want to pinch them but I don't I just don't know how to get their attention......so I just sit there because of the way I've been handling it has run everyone off around me and I get sick of hearing all the baloney coming from false doctrines that make me so angry I could scream.    This has made me angry since I was young but, I don't know what to do about it.  I never have.  I hate to hurt other people....so I finally just quit.  Every now and then something hits a nerve though and I just can't help exploding  and then feel guilty over that[/b]

 I ask myself, ok God, why did you make me such a worrier all my life and so concerned about other people and not wanting to hurt them but yet, I do....I have...and obviously I have had to resist certain proud statements that I was well trained in the synagogues that made my skin crawl and my blood boil but, do I love the ones who are deceived?..Yes, absolutely....If I hadn't sounded like sounding brass and a tinkling symbol I might still have my husband, son, grandbaby.  Now, they are all gone and I may have (spiritually killed them. with all the "churched knowledge I got (which was very little...and constant proud bellowing out in my ear every day about how proud my family was and it was supposed to be such an admirable thing that made me want to vomit so I'm sure it made God want to do the same thing..at least I pray that I didn't...So why did he wait until i'm getting so much older to show me these things that may have caused me to have my family or a set of parents that taught me the real values from scripture and not just the material crap I was hammered with my whole life?  Does that make me angry with God about some stuff? YES!![/b])  I didn't stay in the "churches" for long because I could see it was all just a theater and I found it very boring and a waste of my time....but didnt' get out long enough before I picked up a bunch of religious garbage that didn't even come close to what scripture says.  I could go on and on telling you events if you're interested but I won't cause here I am ....a total mess of a person who loves the people around me so deeply I can't stand the thought of watching them go through the LOF because of perhaps total garbage that I myself participated in teaching them at times, especially my children.  Am I angry with God? Yes, sometimes I have no clue why He makes things so painful for some and see others sitting right in there in their little churches every single Sunday, never pick up their bible excpet on perhaps Wed. nght service and then try to tell me how to live my life.  That's what makes me feel like Paul because when he boasted of his shipwrecks,etc....and all his sufferings he didin't want to boast but he did to make a point....I wish I knew what part I'm playing here. If i'm to die for Him, I'm ready to go.  If not, show me what to do or not do....something!!   That's what I thought I was doing from the day I came in here and is why I poured my heart out in here.  If it sounded self righteous.....God knows my heart and maybe I should have been careful of my wording.  But, what's done is done, so there is that and now, as far as I'm concerned with, it's all in He is in his hands.  I feel like Jacob too sometimes asking Rachel....AM I GOD that I can give you a son??  If I need to be rebuked, go ahead.  I can take it.  I may go off and cry and pout for a few days but I'll be back sooner or later....then You will know I'm not physically dead (speaking plainly here).  Do I feel humble....if you only knew!!  So much so that I couldn't speak for several days.  Sometimes the worst things that hurt the most make you humble.  I'm just hoping there is no more pride left to be burned out of me because this forum was the last one in those rebukes for that...I had plenty more before I came here and much repenting to do. And as a side note, to the person who used that rebuke, it was just the thing I needed. (Ouch)

Sorry Zander    Didn't mean to take over your thread.

Grace

[Deborah-Leigh]

I think that you will most certainly reach clarity if you stay humbly on your path through difficult times Zander.  I wish you well ~

Arc

[mmijares]

This verse below:

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48)

OK so now i "know" the truths of God.  Not all but some, many, i dont know.  What i mean is i know the ending is going to be good for all and i basically understand what God's will is.

However, as i am still basically human and i sin, does this mean i am in for a harsh time in the LOF because i am not a "avid follower" of the word?  I mean im a normal guy, i do normal things.  I might lie on the odd occasion and do small stuff like that, but ive not killed anyone, robbed a house etc.  The again, neither am i Ray or anyone who is a avid follower.

But at the same time because i "know" the lord's will, what does this mean to me?  Am i screwed?  SHOULD i be therefore like Ray or anyone else who is following God to the tee?

Any help?

Zander,

One of the most important things I learned from the scriptures thru Ray is that I am a lawbreaker however little my sins seem to be.  Which means it does not matter whether or not I only lied, or I only coveted, or I only stole a little, I only put God's name occassionally and others murder, others rape, etc..etc.. I'm still a lawbreaker.  I'm the same compare to others.  I cannot boast.

Similarly, I cannot make myself follow "God to the tee" unless He makes me.  There is a desire, I can feel it hence I pray daily and ask Him to keep this desire He gave to be ever kindled.  I wait for the time I will become "fully blown" spiritually.  If God willing, I really really like to see what is it like to be in the first resurrection.  But I don't know where to start.  Study and pray, I guess?  Then apply what is learned with God's guidance, perhaps?

By faith you will feel, know, sense that there is A POWER that is making you to become someone that you are not before.

-Mij

(Sorry, I am not good in expressing myself in English, worst in giving personal advice.  Funny, I sometimes think, does God only want English-speaking people to be in the first resurrection?)

[zander]

To the person who asked me if i want to be a normal guy.  I am saying normal as in i am human.  Obviously  am not going to put my biography here.  There are things/talents about me i feel stand out (thank God) but why express that here?  It would be straying from my point.

I didnt really understand the race analogy.  The fact is, as i have said a few times here, i am not currently even wanting to run that race.  Why put effort into it then?

On another note, there must be thousands of people who "know" these truths but dont necessarily apply them to every day life like they maybe should - so just leading their normal lives, normally.

I still dont get why anyone should recieve harsher treatment for knowing and not applying if they have no desire (or should i say little desire) to apply.  i dont get that.  Again, its a bit like saying if you dont do a, b, c you go to hell...and everyone remembers that mental conundrum, dont they?

[Kat]

Hi Zander,

Just seems unfair if i am going to get hammered for having something i didnt ask for and then having to be something i am not, with it.  Hate to say this but for the first time it feels like when i was taught Church stuff that if i don't do a, b or c i would go to hell, whilst i was thinking "hang on, i cant help what i do.." Is there an answer that makes sense?

When you are judged here or later it will be JUST. God would only hammer those that needed it to learn how to live right. Don't worry that the punishment will exceed the crime, so to speak, He will give each exactly what each needs no more and no less.

You make not have much of a desire now, but you are here and seeking and that is a start. The parable of the mustard seed comes to mind... we all start out with the earnest of the spirit, a tiny amount (mustard seeds are very tiny). We have to nourish this seed/Holy Spirit and feed it spiritual food for it to grow. Yes all is of God and this is something He will continually nudge us to do. Are You being nudged right now? He makes us see the need and then start to act on it. We will not change over night, but what is the change that needs to come? Is it that anyone that sees us knows we are religious, because we just look righteous? Is it you spend a certain amount (lots) of time on your knees in pray everyday? Do you seek out as many as you possibly can do charitable works, so the world can see your "good works"? I don't think it is really any of these things.

The Holy Spirit guides you daily to overcome your faults, but it is a process that takes time. He shows us a sin and little by little we work to remove it; first we only recognize it (lying, petty thief, anger, cussing, coveting, judging others are things that come to mind), but we know these are wrong and hate that we do them and want to stop it. The hate of it grows as we continue on doing it until we actually start to catch it before sometimes, then catch it more and more till we don't do it anymore. As I said this can be a very slow process, but over time you begin to overcome these things one by one. I will say that He does at times removes a fault almost instantly, it happens. That to me is dying daily, getting ride of the carnal desires. As you can see almost all of these sins are directed towards others, so putting others before yourself is the key.

But a very important thing is coming to 'know' Christ! I see this as communication with Him back and forth, I talk to Him all the time, not out loud usually and He talks to me in the Scriptures and in meditation. This is vital spiritual food that we must have to grow spiritually. Here is a section from another thread that seems to fit here.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html --------------------------------------------

"To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the hidden manna" (Rev. 2:17).

We can’t grow spiritually unless we eat SPIRITUAL FOOD. When we eat of Christ’s spiritual body, we grow spiritually; when we stop eating spiritual food we spiritually starve and spiritually die. If we eat spiritual food, we grow, we mature, we are "continuing in Christ’s word" and Christ word is spirit and therefore spiritual food.
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Hi mmijares,

Sorry, I am not good in expressing myself in English, worst in giving personal advice.  Funny, I sometimes think, does God only want English-speaking people to be in the first resurrection?

That made me chuckle    You speak very well. Actually in the next age I hope He will give the elect one pure language to speak, maybe the whole world too, kind of reverse it back to before Babel or something.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[DougE6]

I didnt really understand the race analogy.  The fact is, as i have said a few times here, i am not currently even wanting to run that race.  Why put effort into it then?

That was the entire point! To show where you are right now.  Some people really want to run the race with all their heart. Some, like you, do not even want to enter the race.  If you do not even want to enter the race, then, your conscience may bother you, for you have been intoduced to some great truths. But you don't want to deny yourself, to follow Jesus. So you are worried about stripes. You worry that this knowledge may actually backfire, because you are not willing to serve God. So exactly how is God going to treat you, you wonder, in judgement?

You remind me of King Agrippa, when he said to Paul....Act 26:27  King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe."
Act 26:28  And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?"

The text doesn't ever say if Agrippa actually became a Christian.  You need to decide if you want to become a follower of Christ or not. Even Christ says to count the cost...Luk 14:27  Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28  For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?

I pray that you will decide that the rewards of this earth are not even to be compared to the Kingdom of God.

[mharrell08]

To the person who asked me if i want to be a normal guy.  I am saying normal as in i am human.  Obviously  am not going to put my biography here.  There are things/talents about me i feel stand out (thank God) but why express that here?  It would be straying from my point.

I didnt really understand the race analogy.  The fact is, as i have said a few times here, i am not currently even wanting to run that race.  Why put effort into it then?

The race analogy is simply one living their life. You are not judged by how you finish, but rather how you ran the race. And it is the 'how you ran' that determines your prize at the finish, so to speak.

God is more interested in who & what you are internally, then your outward works. He works on these things, even as you do your normal day to day things. As He continues to change you internally, it will manifest outwardly...this is how one 'lets their light shine'. Just remember, God works from the inside-out, and you won't realize it is happening until AFTER the process has begun and close to completion. That's what it means to 'look back' as the apostle John does in Rev 1:10 [See section 'I STOOD UPON THE SAND OF THE SEA' under Lake of Fire Part 13 (http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html)].

I still dont get why anyone should recieve harsher treatment for knowing and not applying if they have no desire (or should i say little desire) to apply.  i dont get that.  Again, its a bit like saying if you dont do a, b, c you go to hell...and everyone remembers that mental conundrum, dont they?

Why assume everyone else gets harsher treatment? What is harsher treatment?

God only punishes the wicked for what they DO desire to do, not what they don't. And I'm referring to those who knowingly 'suppress the truth in unrighteousness' [Rom 1:18]. As I said before, it's not an all or nothing scenario. There will be people, many people, who will not have God's wrath upon them because they were blinded in their ignorance. But those who do know the truth, and DESIRE to withhold that truth for their own personal gain, THEY will have God's wrath upon them. Not because they had no desire to live right, but because they desired and did live wrong in suppressing the truth.


Hope this helps Zander,

Marques

[Samson]

This verse below:

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48)

OK so now i "know" the truths of God.  Not all but some, many, i dont know.  What i mean is i know the ending is going to be good for all and i basically understand what God's will is.

However, as i am still basically human and i sin, does this mean i am in for a harsh time in the LOF because i am not a "avid follower" of the word?  I mean im a normal guy, i do normal things.  I might lie on the odd occasion and do small stuff like that, but ive not killed anyone, robbed a house etc.  The again, neither am i Ray or anyone who is a avid follower.

But at the same time because i "know" the lord's will, what does this mean to me?  Am i screwed?  SHOULD i be therefore like Ray or anyone else who is following God to the tee?

Any help?

Zander,

One of the most important things I learned from the scriptures thru Ray is that I am a lawbreaker however little my sins seem to be.  Which means it does not matter whether or not I only lied, or I only coveted, or I only stole a little, I only put God's name occassionally and others murder, others rape, etc..etc.. I'm still a lawbreaker.  I'm the same compare to others.  I cannot boast.

Similarly, I cannot make myself follow "God to the tee" unless He makes me.  There is a desire, I can feel it hence I pray daily and ask Him to keep this desire He gave to be ever kindled.  I wait for the time I will become "fully blown" spiritually.  If God willing, I really really like to see what is it like to be in the first resurrection.  But I don't know where to start.  Study and pray, I guess?  Then apply what is learned with God's guidance, perhaps?

By faith you will feel, know, sense that there is A POWER that is making you to become someone that you are not before.

-Mij

(Sorry, I am not good in expressing myself in English, worst in giving personal advice.  Funny, I sometimes think, does God only want English-speaking people to be in the first resurrection?)

For MMIJARES & Others,

MMIJARES, I don't think you have to worry about God Choosing Only English Speaking individuals. Here's a list of those that didn't speak English: Paul, John, James, Peter, Thomas, Thaddeus, Philip, Barnabas, Timothy, Mary Magdalene, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Stephen, Jude, Nathaniel, etc,  and many more.

Below are excerpt's that I thought might bring balance to the varying opinions involving God's CAUSES, whether Direct or Indirect tempered with Our participation in this Life Course accompanied by the consideration of Man's Will(not Free Will), Man's Desires,the exceeding Weak Heart of Man, God's Purpose or Plan, God's Will for us as individuals. Hopefully, this will help the discussion and not add confusion. Read below PART'S OF OR COMPLETE EXCERPT'S OF RAY'S IN BLUE.

By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet.  But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?

Dear Nameless:

You are spiritually BLIND!

You equate NOT living according to God's Word, Whoring around with as many women as possible, having carnal fun, and being a general overall a@@, will "Make my life as FULFILLING AS POSSIBLE."  Listen to yourself!

You are admitting that you HATE GOD'S WAY OF LIFE.

To you it "isn't fun" and "isn't fulfilling."   To you a life of sin is a "FULFILLING LIFE."  You need a little spiritual adjustment between your ears.

I stated that there is coming "JUDGMENT" upon all who have not known or obeyed God.  There is "chastisement" in that judgment. THEY WILL have a change of heart, (as you must as well) before they will be members of God's Family. God will PURGE THEM of their evil and wicked ways--it is not a pretty picture.

Hitler will not just waltz into the Family of God as if he has not nothing to be corrected about.  People like Hitler will be SEVERELY CHASTISED for their evil ways. But, he WILL BE SAVED! Thank God for that.

You and I both would have been little "Hitler's" except for the grace of God. And if you don't believe that is true, then your understanding of your own carnal nature is small indeed.

Have no fear. The wicked will repent before they ever enter God's Family. Therefore, if we do not welcome them, then there is something seriously wrong with our own attitude, character, and spirituality.

Hope that helps yours understanding.

Sincerely,

Ray

There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.

    People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins.   They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy.  The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF.  God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering.  Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.

    We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS.  Think of sin as DIRT.  It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.

You state that Joshua making a CHOICE to obey God "sounds like free will to you." It may, indeed, 'sound' like free will to you, but it is nothing of the kind. Nowhere in Scripture or in my writings will you find a statement that man does not MAKE CHOICES.  All men make millions of choices--billions!  Making a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of "free moral agency" or what is commonly called, "free will."

We choose all day long. God asks us to choose. The human brain has the ability to weigh data and make a choice. I nor the Scriptures deny this fact. What I AND THE SCRIPTURES do deny, is that man has the ability to man "UNCAUSED" choices. For that is what "free" will is all about--UNCAUSED choices, and I and the Scriptures both agree that this is a physiological impossibility.

If something always MAKES OR CAUSES you to choose what you do, then you and your data-processing-brain are not "free" or out of the realm of "causality" to do anything BUT what a cause made you choose. You can say the cause, forced, made, or soften,  to influenced, or inspired, but the end result is always the same: ALL OF OUR CHOICES ARE INFLUENCED, INSPIRED, OR CAUSED to happen by billions of circumstances beyond our knowledge or control.

I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL-- MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN.  God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.

And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?"  Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.

Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him-- He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL." Oh really? And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires? NO IT CAN'T! And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine. The natural mind is totally incapable of  loving God:

God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first; he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments; he cannot please God; he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9). And therefore God's ways will justify His means. The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).

And so here is the answer to your question:

BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.

AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave his such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever realize the marvelous highest of power and glory that God has in mind for him.

And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grant to you "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.

Unfortunately, there is not a magic bullet that will instantly clean us of all sin and bad habits. Even the physical analogies of this spiritual washing, purging, and cleaning of our carnality, indicate that time is required. It takes time to wash clothing, it takes time to purify gold and silver in a furnace, etc.

The penalty of sin issue can be settled in your heart and mind the instant you come to realize that Jesus PAID IN FULL the penalty for your sins and all the sin of the world. However, paying the penalty for sin does not instantly PURGE AND WASH US CLEAN OF SIN. The penalty is paid, but the condition lingers.

The more you SEE your sins and shortcomings, the more you will DESIRE to rid yourself of these things. We are crucified WITH CHRIST, yet we live, but the life we live is one of OVERCOMING THE SINS FOR WHICH WE AND CHRIST DIED FOR.

We have been HAND-PICKED by God to be in His kingdom. Now we must go through the training course that He has set before us.  Jesus said that He overcame THE WORLD. We too are to overcome THE WORLD. It's a HUGE task, that requires the power of SPIRIT to accomplish.

Don't become discouraged in well-doing. You will triumph in Christ if you have His spirit working in you. God will even give you the DESIRE to want to do right and be right.

This life is a life of SPIRITUAL WARFARE. There will be many battles before the final victory. So we must endure and we must overcome. For those whom God has chosen, this will be accomplished!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

I'm certain there are other Emails that provide insight explaining the Cause & Affect relationship regarding Mankind Sinning explaining Our participation, God's Authorship and How We stop sinning and Our active role in all of this. This Topic about Man's Accountability, God's Responsibility, Man's desire. God's Plan & Desire and whether or not We are involved and to what extent has surfaced for discussion in many Forms and derived from Topics that originally had nothing to do with the original question. Perhaps, because of the difficulty of fully comprehending this relationship, this type of Topic continues to be a source of discussion. I expect that it will be brought up in the Future in some Form or another, especially with the addition of New Forum Members. Well, it's often said: Repetition is the Mother of Retension.

                    Hope This somewhat Helps, Samson.

[zander]

I can see this thread could probably go on forever, which is understandable as everyone has their personal take on this.

All i can say is this.  I am normal lol.  I like music, going out, being with pals, cinema, sometimes horrors (like The Mummy III, so bad it was horrific .  I like to debate, i swear, i judge occasionaly, i drink sometimes, i dont smoke, i like girls.  I dont give as much as i should, i forgive slightly more than i used to.  Finally, worst of all and this should be deserving of many stripes alone - i watch Paris Hilton programmes  .  Actually ive gone off them so maybe i am seeing the light.

Im also a journalist.  I hate injustice and i pour wrath on people who cant see the truth through the trees because theyre blinded by media nonsense.  Is that right?  I dont bloody know.  What i do know is all of it is part of who i am.  I am not a decent servant and i am sorry to God for not being one. I am not running any race, i havent really wanted to.  I know one day i will, but not today.  I just dont want to be looked down on for this indiscretion as i really cannot, at the end of the day, help who i am.

[Grace]

Samson,

That's where I have another question.  It says in scripture that He spoke plainly to his disciples but to the multitudes He spoke in parables.  But, then, there is the scripture here that says:

John 16:25  These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26  At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27  For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Heb 11:14  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12  Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14  For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15  And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Would that not mean that whatever language He speaks it will be plainly to His own?

Thanks,
Grace

[Marky Mark]

I still dont get why anyone should recieve harsher treatment for knowing and not applying if they have no desire (or should i say little desire) to apply.  i dont get that.

 
Because by not applying what you have been given in Spirit is putting your own self righteous attitude before the Lords. Remember Job? The few or many stripes of Gods fire are needed to burn out the old man before the new man in Christ can be put on.We all have to be a servant/obey our Lord before we can be perfected in the Spirit.To worship God is to obey God and Scripture states that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God...obey and live...refuse and die.
  If any one of us is led to believe otherwise then there are Spiritual consequences to be paid,none the less,we will all learn righteousness.

Joh 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 Mat 16:25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Peace...Mark

[Samson]

Samson,

That's where I have another question.  It says in scripture that He spoke plainly to his disciples but to the multitudes He spoke in parables.  But, then, there is the scripture here that says:

John 16:25  These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26  At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27  For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Heb 11:14  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12  Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14  For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15  And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Would that not mean that whatever language He speaks it will be plainly to His own?

Thanks,
Grace

I've referred this question to kat, I asked Her to answer for Me, not because I don't like You,  , but I have to go to work soon and would like to answer thoroughly and not Wing It. Kat said She will get to it, when She can, but accepted My request. Also, Kat's smarter than I am,  , but She has a few errands to run, Please be patient, maybe John Michael might view Your question too or Marques, they could answer if they choose to do so.  .

                     Thanks, Samson.

[mharrell08]

Samson,

That's where I have another question.  It says in scripture that He spoke plainly to his disciples but to the multitudes He spoke in parables.

That's not true Grace, Christ spoke in parables in all His sermons, including to His disciples. The same passage you referenced has Christ saying to His disciples 'I have spoken to you in proverbs (parables)' but that He shall speak plainly, as in soon but not now.


As far as the many languages, God has already demonstrated that He is able to use anyone to speak in any language necessary to further the gospel. This miracle is actually the true meaning of 'speaking in tongues'. Ray's paper on speaking in tongues is a good reference (http://bible-truths.com/tongues.htm).


Hope this helps,

Marques

[gmik]

Zander....thanks for your honesty!

I don't and I hope no one here looks down on you for anything!!!
Good Lord, that is not what this is for...you sure got preached at on this thread tho!!!

shrug it off and live your life-

Your Sister in the Lord,
gena

[daywalker]

"What it sounds like here is your thinking that once you come to the Truth, you're suddenly going to wake up one day no longer desiring any sin whatsoever, righteous in every manner, and spiritually perfect".

No, i am not thinking this way at all.  I am thinking the exact opposite.  Now i "know" these "truths", how do i deal with it?  I know i am not waking up wanting to change.  I am not changing.  I am not in a place where i want to.  I know i will have to, but that day isnt today.  So whilst i "know" what i know, it seems unfair to get hammered if i dont start to follow it as i should.  As i say, im an average, every day guy.  I dont hate anyone (as far as i know, although i hate anything with Paris Hilton in it..lol)..yuo know what i mean?

Jeez, i sometimes wonder if i'd rather i didnt know what i know.

Hey Zander,

I know what it's like feel as you do, I've been there too. Don't put too much pressure on yourself. Live your to the best of your ability, doing your best to treat those around you kindly regardless of how they treat you back. If you have a desire to open your bible, do so. If you have a desire to "shout out a prayer" to God, do so. If you feel like you need to "slow down" or take a break, do so and don't feel guilty for it. Just remember these truths and keep them close to your heart:

(1) All is of God, Who is Sovereign.
(2) Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World (not potential, but Actual)

If God has any higher calling for you in this life, than He will lead you in that direction. And you know we are all here at the forum anytime you need us.


Godspeed,
Christopher 

[gmik]

Just take care of your family for now and keep studying God's Word. If God wants
to use you in some other capacity, it will become evident to you without selling out
on your family.
 
God be with you,
Ray


"Nuff said.....this thread got too wordy and preachy in my opinion.  Just leave it as what Ray says!!

Live your life! don't worry about any perceived shortcomings and don't worry about the "stripes".....

[zander]

i could understand the many stripes bit if i abused the knowledge ive been given - i get that.  So if i went on and felt i had a free license to sin and fooled people deliberately.  I get that.

But as i dont do that, i am, if you like, in limbo with it, this is where my question lies.  How do i get treated by God for knowing and not doing rather than knowing and abusing?

Weird.

[mharrell08]

i could understand the many stripes bit if i abused the knowledge ive been given - i get that.  So if i went on and felt i had a free license to sin and fooled people deliberately.  I get that.

But as i dont do that, i am, if you like, in limbo with it, this is where my question lies.  How do i get treated by God for knowing and not doing rather than knowing and abusing?

Weird.

Desire to do good works comes from God, so don't worry about not having it now. You can't be something you're not [Jer 13:23].

You're not in limbo, you're just a sinner who has their mind opened to the truth. Paul referred to it as a 'wretched' feeling [Rom 7:24], but asked rhetorically, 'who will deliver me?' and then answered: 'thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord' [Rom 7:25]. God plans on delivering you from this feeling you have now, not pile onto it. You won't be mistreated or abused, but comforted in due time.

You'll be treated as a son, because our God is our Father.


Marques

[mharrell08]

"Nuff said.....this thread got too wordy and preachy in my opinion.  Just leave it as what Ray says!!

These kinds of comments aren't helpful or edifying for anyone involved. All they do is promote bad feelings & strife. If one doesn't like how a thread is heading, stay away or contact a moderator.

If a members opens up a discussion, there's a chance that all forum members could respond...goes with the territory. We're only trying to help one another.

[zander]

Ive appreciated everyones input in this thread, so i want to say i havent felt preached at.  Everyone has their take on things, so its all good