> General Discussions
Adam's mother
daywalker:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 14, 2011, 02:13:00 PM ---
--- Quote from: daywalker on June 14, 2011, 12:08:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 13, 2011, 09:11:03 PM ---
--- Quote from: daywalker on June 13, 2011, 06:49:23 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 13, 2011, 05:44:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on June 13, 2011, 02:25:37 PM ---Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh
When the Pharisees approached Jesus to test Him, one of their questions was about marriage & divorce. Jesus quoted this passage of scripture to them in referring to Adam & Eve, who were joined as one.
So when God made this statement, who is the mother that the man (Adam) left to be joined with Eve? Is this further proof that Adam & Eve were not the first humans?
--- End quote ---
Who was Eve's father and mother if she came from Adam and she was the mother of all living? Could Gen 2:24 just be a general statement applicable to future human beings other than Adam and Eve?
Or could the entire story of Adam and Eve be a parable since that seems to be God's preferred way of teaching? A snake that talks and stands upright; a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; a Tree of Life; the Tree of Life guarded by Cherubim and a flaming sword that moved in all directions; eating of forbidden fruit; God walking in the Garden in the cool of the day? Is all this literal or a parable?
--- End quote ---
You know, I've heard and considered this idea of the Story of Eden being a parable, but the one "flaw" that I haven't got any answers for is the genealogical records in the Bible. Example:
Luke 3:23-38 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,....... 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
I don't see how this could be explained (away)...seems there must've been a real "Adam" at some point.
As for the serpent, I don't believe it was an actual snake that walked up or slithered around the tree talking to Eve, I think it was Satan talking much in the same way he talks to anyone else--through their mind (like Judas for example):
John 13:2 During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him,
Before Satan actually "entered" or possessed Judas (verse 27), he had already been active in perverting his mind to betray Jesus. I'm thinking in the same way he 'worked' Eve's mind (though he never actually possessed her at any time). I don't believe that Eve ever actually "saw" anyone, though it appears somehow she was aware of his presence because she accuses him of tricking her (Gen 3:13). I could be wrong, but this is the way I see it.
Daywalker 8)
--- End quote ---
Being a "son of" can also be a parable or not literal. See Matthew 1:1. Jesus is called the son of David, the son of Abraham. That is not strictly true or literal. Adam is also the Hebrew word for "humanity".
Also your statement about Satan is an opinion. I yearn for absolute truth, not opinion. If a talking, standing serpent is not literal, which I have doubts about since I've never seen one ; how do we distinguish between literal and parable?
--- End quote ---
John, as if I yearn for opinion and not absolute truth? Let's be fair, your assessment of the Genesis story being a parable is just as much "opinion" as my statement on Satan. Though let me also add I didn't come to this "opinion" without reason, but I used a Scriptural example for why I feel as I do.
True, Jesus is called the son of David though He wasn't literally the son of David. But does this fact mean or even suggest that Jesus didn't actually exist at all? Of course not! Likewise, Adam being the "son of God" could indeed be figurative, yet does that mean Adam, the man, never existed at all? I am aware that Adam in the Hebrew means "humanity", and I'm not dogmatically denying the possibility of the Genesis story being a parable...I just haven't been convinced yet.
Godspeed,
Daywalker 8)
--- End quote ---
Hi Daywalker,,
I didn't mean to cause offense. You are a scholar and gentleman.
The Scriptures are documents of spiritual truths that can only be spiritually discerned with the Spirit of God.
The topic of our actual beginnings is a topic that I have been interested in all my life.
Literal or parable, or a combination of both? I suspect we may not have the complete answers this side of the Resurrection.
Peace to you.
John
--- End quote ---
No worries, John, we're good! Like I said I don't deny the possibility of it being a parable (at least partially) at all; I was just sharing a few problems I've run into that I've yet to find answers for in support of the parable theory (I call it 'theory' because at this time no one has shown me Scriptural support yet). Anyway, I agree with you on the resurrection too; I can't begin to imagine the extreme amount of enlightenment we will receive in the next life.... I hope the brains of our resurrection bodies are much bigger and better than our current ones! :D
Daywalker 8)
ericsteven:
I haven't commented in a while, but one thing I remember about Ray's teachings is him constantly distinguishing between flesh and spirit. For example:
Romans 7:9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
Romans 7:10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
Romans 7:11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.
Are we to take these verses to mean that Paul literally died? Or is this speaking of something spiritual? And if it is spiritual, how would it apply to the "death" spoken of in the story of Adam and Eve? Does the commandment from God to Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil parallel the commandment spoken of by Paul? Is physical death really the issue here? Or was it spiritual death that passed on to all mankind from the point that God gave his commandment in the garden?
Another verse to think about regarding the difference between physical and spiritual death:
I John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
Is John saying that anyone who does not love is physically dead? Were those who now love once physically dead and now physically alive again?
On a related vein...if the death and resurrection of Jesus applies to all men and women who have ever lived, including those who lived before he died and rose again, would the same apply to the "death" brought in by Adam's sin? i.e...Could the "death" spoken of in relation to Adam and Eve have passed to all men before and after Adam's disobedience (assuming there were men before Adam)? If that is true, would those who were physically alive before Adam experience that "death" once they have been resurrected to physical bodies and had an opportunity to be exposed to God's commandment?
I don't know. Don't really have a lot of definitive answers. Just things to think about.
Eric
Marky Mark:
--- Quote ---Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh
When the Pharisees approached Jesus to test Him, one of their questions was about marriage & divorce. Jesus quoted this passage of scripture to them in referring to Adam & Eve, who were joined as one.
--- End quote ---
Joh 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
--- Quote ---So when God made this statement, who is the mother that the man (Adam) left to be joined with Eve? Is this further proof that Adam & Eve were not the first humans?
--- End quote ---
Mar 3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
Mar 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Hey Marques,I hope you can see some of the Spiritual implications involved with your question.
Thanks...
Peace...Mark
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Marky Mark on June 15, 2011, 09:31:42 AM ---
--- Quote ---Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh
When the Pharisees approached Jesus to test Him, one of their questions was about marriage & divorce. Jesus quoted this passage of scripture to them in referring to Adam & Eve, who were joined as one.
--- End quote ---
Joh 6:63 ...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
--- Quote ---So when God made this statement, who is the mother that the man (Adam) left to be joined with Eve? Is this further proof that Adam & Eve were not the first humans?
--- End quote ---
Mar 3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
Mar 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Hey Marques,I hope you can see some of the Spiritual implications involved with your question.
Thanks...
Peace...Mark
--- End quote ---
No, that wasn't related to my question but thank you anyways.
gmik:
At Ray's conf. in Nashville he talked about the Clovis people who were in America/Canada 14,000 years ago. The church teaches Adam is about 6,000 years ago!
When I had my DNA done for genealogical purposes it said I was from the Hunter/Gatherers in the Ukraine area about 20,000 years ago.
Well, my 2 cents, I agree w/ Ray on this, not the church.
Did Moses write Genesis?? Far as I know there is no proof of this. How did the first 5 books of the Torah come down thru thousands of years intact?? 400 years in Egypt would have to infiltrate the brains of those Hebrews wouldn't it?? The first 3 chaps of Gen. are kinda confusing and actually shows creation out of order of days. Did the Hebrews want to make sense of their beginnings like all other major people groups?? Or did God choose them to make Himself known to mankind? Thereby he could then be the first man as Christ is the 2nd man....those aren't literal statements but spiritual.
Lots of questions, good commentary, good thread people!
I read that the composite of our bodies are the same elements that were in the Big Bang!
Cain left and went to cities!! Lots of people on the planet before 6,000 years ago- but finally a group was hearing about the One True God. Maybe thats it.
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