> General Discussions
Roman 5:12
dave:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 15, 2011, 12:27:23 PM ---Spiritual death? Where does this idea come from? I don't like ideas that are not in the Scriptures. There is enough of that in the churches and religions of the world.
The Scriptures state that the spirit returns to God who gave it. Where does the spirit die?
Physical bodies die. To be carnally minded is death. But where and when do spirits die, per the Scriptures?
--- End quote ---
I know that take it up with religion.
daywalker:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 15, 2011, 12:27:23 PM ---Spiritual death? Where does this idea come from? I don't like ideas that are not in the Scriptures. There is enough of that in the churches and religions of the world.
The Scriptures state that the spirit returns to God who gave it. Where does the spirit die?
Physical bodies die. To be carnally minded is death. But where and when do spirits die, per the Scriptures?
--- End quote ---
Hey John,
I think you misunderstand the term "spiritual death" as I've never heard it described as someone's "spirit" dying, but rather a spiritual act of the carnal mind dying (or in other words: overcoming our fleshly desires). I can appreciate you being hesitant in using an extra-biblical term, though, as I usually am as well. That being said, I wanted to show that this term "spiritual death" is used by Ray in his teachings. Now, I'm all for discarding this term if you or someone can find a "better" way to explain these things:
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm
GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH THROUGH JUDGMENT
As a young man I used to think, horrors of horrors, God is going to throw people into a lake of fire which will be their SECOND death! It all seemed so frightful and final. Little did I know that we are all destined for some form of this same lake of fire/second death/judgment. Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.
It's all in Rom. 8:13:
"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
Paul puts people into two options (based on God's foreknowledge):
OPTION ONE is for the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because "it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).
OPTION TWO is for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).
The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!
"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow me" (Luke 9:23).
"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die DAILY ['daily am I dying'--Concordant Version]" (I Cor. 15:31).
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed ['we are put to death'--Concordant Version] all the DAY LONG; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Rom. 8:36).
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ['die'] for my sake shall find it" (Matt. 16:25).
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live [Paul was spiritually dead, 'crucified,' yet he still lived 'now... in the flesh' and was growing spiritually in Christ] in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).
"As unknown, and yet well known; as dying [a spiritual SECOND death], and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed" (II Cor. 6:9).
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness" (I Pet. 2:24).
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Gal. 5:24).
"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I [am crucified] unto the world ['love not the world,' I John 2:15-16]" (Gal. 6:14).
"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10).
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13).
"Always bearing about in the body [our body] the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (II Cor. 4:10-11).
"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments [worldliness] of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances" (Col. 2:20).
"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which DIE in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them" (Rev. 14:13).
"Mortify [deaden, put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry" (Col. 3:5).
But how can I say that all these Scriptures have reference to our Second Death, seeing that not one of them mentions a "second death?" The answer is threefold:
The Second Death IS Judgment, and Judgment after the resurrection is called the Second death.
The Lake of Fire IS the Second Death, and we too go through the Lake of Fire (also called, Gehenna fire, eonian fire, etc.), so we too go through the Second Death, and the above Scriptures refer to the Judgment of death on God's Elect.
We will see that this Second Death comes after a previous death, and therefore must be a "second" death. Notice how our death is linked with fire.
I ask in all sincerity, if the term "spiritual death" is a term you think we should discard, then in what way would explain these verses? Thank you.
Daywalker 8)
dave:
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.
Thats how I am beginning to understand. It has only been lately that the term "spiritual death" has troubled me. I was reminded in the post about Adams mother, of what Ray said, that if the orthodox church/religion teaches it, it is probably not so. Its been a difficult trouble for me cause stopping that " orthodox church/religion" teaching is pretty ingrained.
to die shall you be dying. That is how I understand it.
dave:
Well I suppose I just better lay off this one too!
mikejody:
"Whatever is not of faith, is sin" (Romans 14:23). Adam sinned and brought death to all, Jesus obeyed unto death and brought life to all. Sometimes we want to make Scripture into something "deeper", something mysterious rather than the purely good news of what Jesus did for us on the cross and through His resurrection.
--- Quote from: micah7:9 on June 14, 2011, 10:12:47 PM ---I want to get back to the Adams mother post, this was something I have been studying and I felt it out of place with the Adams mother post.
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
I have always been told that this "one man" was/is adam. Here is where, for me anyway, I get to reasoning, the Bible does not say in Gen.3 that man/woman/adam sinned.
Now in Gen. 4:7 is the first time "sin" is used and it is in reference to Cain.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
I am given to see that Adam is man(kind) Cain/adam/man(kind) commited sin.
--- End quote ---
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