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[mharrell08]

First, if you could, please read the excerpt below:

Excerpt from 2011 bible study 'Is Jesus God?/Are you Afraid of God?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html):

I have a little bit more that I want to cover about our relationship with God and how we see the Father in Christ.

I’m going to ask A question. Jesus Christ said no man had ever seen the Father or seen His shape or heard His voice. So I have wondered for a long time, will we ever? What do you think Gordon? [I think yes.] You think yes, okay. There is a Scripture that says we will see Him as He is.

1John 3:2  …for we shall see Him as He is.

There is the Scripture. But there is another one that says [Comment: It can’t be anything different though.] No it’s got to fit. Of course I have a way with a crowbar to make it fit. No. In 1 Tim. 6 I had trouble figuring out who this was talking about, Christ or the Father, for a long time. Still some translations put it one way or the other. See what you think.

1Tim 6:13  I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
v. 14  That you keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
v. 15  Which in His times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Who is that? [Comment: Jesus] Well He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. But lets read on.

1Tim 6:16  Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

Diaglott
1Tim 6:15  Which in His own season that blessed and only Potentate will exhibit the King of kings;

So who is doing the exhibiting? [Comment: Jesus.] Jesus? Well it sounds like it will be the Father. Gordon? [I’m not sure.] [Comment: Sounds like Jesus is going to exhibit His Father, manifest His Father.] I would put it maybe the other way, but let’s see.

Diaglott
1Tim 6:16  the only One possessing immortality, inhabiting light inaccessible, who no man has seen, nor is able to see;

Can this be said of Jesus?

New American Bible
1Tim 6:15  That the Blessed and only Ruler will manifest at the proper time, the King of kings and Lord of lords.
v. 16  Who alone has immortality, who dwells in the unapproachable light and whom no human being has seen are can see.

You think that is speaking of Christ? [Comment: The first part is talking about the Father and then it’s talking about Jesus.] But then again do we know that’s the proper translation.

The living Bible is pretty good on some of this stuff.

The living Bible
1Tim 6:15  For in due season Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and all mighty God, the King of kings and Lord of lords.
v. 16 Who alone can never die…

Now it’s interesting that when we know that immortality means deathlessness or you can never die. But when you say “can never die,” then it seems you rule out Jesus Christ. He died. Listen to this.

v. 16 …who lives in light so terrible that no human being (Jesus Christ is a human being) can approach Him, no mere man has ever seen Him, nor ever will.

So I’m not 100% sure on that. So I’ve wondered… we know that no man has ever seen the Father, Jesus Christ said so. We know that no human can see, not only the Father, but can’t see the glory of God no matter which divinity or member of the Godhead it would be. Because when it was Moses, it wasn’t just Elohim, you would say well that’s the Father, no that was Yahweh Elohim. So if Yahweh is Jesus, then He also has a glory, that no man can see.

We know He has a glory beyond any human being, because when He was transfigured on the mountain there, it says He had this radiance about Him. But it certainly wasn’t on the magnitude that it would kill you to look at Him, because John, Peter and James were there.

So I’m not quite sure yet. You may say what does it matter and so on and so forth? Well to me it is really an interesting concept, to know the answer to it. You know they say familiarity breeds contempt and that certainly is true to a large extent on the human level.

Those that work around the president everyday, after a while they can lose that awe and respect. I don’t think most of his cabinet do, but you know it can happen. You can think I can see his problems, he’s just like us, he’s no better than us. Sort of an attitude.

So maybe if we could see God on an equal level in eternity, that could breed familiarity, I don’t know. What do ya’ll think about that? [Comment: What is the question?] Will we ever see our Father? [Comment: It said “mere men,” us.] Yeah. [Comment: In His coming kingdom.] Well except for the Scripture here. If this is talking about the Father. Gordon do you know of another Scripture like this one in 1Timothy? Do you know of another Scripture even close to that, where it says no human being can approach Him, no mere man has ever seen Him, nor ever will? Is there another Scripture anywhere close to that? [I don’t know.] I don’t know of any. But then we have Scriptures like 1 John 3... I know this is suppose to be a Bible study where I teach you things. You get to see some of my thought processes.


There are no definite right or wrong answers. You can answer a simple yes/no or comment further if you feel lead to. Just would like to hear your thoughts.



Thanks

Marques

[CEO]

Hi 

As long as we are in "maybe" land I will take a stab.  I feel that after our change is come from physical to spiritual, then we will see Him as he is.  If he is our Father (in spirit) then when we are spirit we will see our Father.  I am looking forward to Ray sharing his revelation/thoughts with us on this.

Askseeknock

CEO

[Duane]

Marques...I truly enjoy your deep "ponderisms".  What a beautiful, inquistive mind God gave you!
My two cents.  I agree with the above post.

[daywalker]

I would say, "yes", we will SEE the Father someday. Here's my thinking:

"See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." 1 John 3:2

Now, some could use Christ's statement that "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" as a counter. However, I believe this next verse further supports my stance:

"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has SEEN the Father." John 6:47

How did Christ ever "see" the Father? It wouldn't make sense for Him to say He's seen the Father "through" Himself (Jesus). So, then, I'd say that, Yes, Jesus has actually (somehow) seen the Father visibly. And if we are to become exactly like Christ is, then I'd say, just as Christ has "seen" the Father, so shall we.


And, furthermore:

"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form." John 5:37

Notice that Jesus never said the Father does not have a "voice", and He never said the Father does not have a "form"; He just said we've never "heard" or "seen" them.


so that's my thoughts...

Daywalker 

[Duane]

Daywalker/John...You nailed it again!  Thank you for your research and substantiating verses.  It is much appreciated.

[Akira329]

Yes!!! We will see the Father!
I have no doubts about this.
1Jn 3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
This is also our hope!!

My question is what exactly will we see?
Will we have eyes similar to what we have or perfect perception? I don't know........
Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Invisible things are understood by things that are made.
How much more understanding to actually see those invisible things!
What ever those invisible things are I assume makes up the Father. I don't know......
CLV has a good rendition:
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.

I love the thought that through this process we may find an answer!

Antaiwan

[JohnMichael]

You know they say familiarity breeds contempt and that certainly is true to a large extent on the human level.

Those that work around the president everyday, after a while they can lose that awe and respect. I don’t think most of his cabinet do, but you know it can happen. You can think I can see his problems, he’s just like us, he’s no better than us. Sort of an attitude.

So maybe if we could see God on an equal level in eternity, that could breed familiarity, I don’t know.

I remember thinking about this point when I read that article. The basis of familiarity breeding contempt is human nature. Human Nature, aka Carnality, will be done away with, so familiarity would no longer breed contempt.

I thoroughly believe that the Father is not going to be some absent third party.

[Deborah-Leigh]

1Jn 3:2  Dear friends, we are now God's children, but what we will be like has not been revealed yet. We know that when Christ is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him as he is.

Who see's Jesus is like Jesus.

Arc

[grapehound]

Amen Arc.

Hi Guys,

Please don’t see this as Grape being flippant.  Seriously, hands up all you ex-Babylonians that still see Daddy as a man in the sky with a long beard.
You really don’t have to answer me, but genuinely ask of yourself, “How do I see Daddy?”


Throughout my sojourn in Babylon, I read my bible like a book,( Big mistake)
Then, one glorious day Daddy led me to Uncle Ray and switched a light on! 

On discovering that the translation called a bible wasn’t scripture at all, but an interpretation, Ray gave me a thirst to rediscover the mystery of my Heavenly Father.

To date, I think it’s as plain as a pikestaff, that when we are taught, “When we see Him we shall be like Him”, Author is leading us to a place of identification.
When we look in a mirror, what do we behold?  Do we see ourselves as we are? NO.
We see a reflected image!

Does this give you a clue?

The reason that I asked that ‘silly’ question at the top?
Upward is spiritual.

Physically, upward is the sky and the Cosmos.
Is that where Daddy is?
Well of course, because He is everywhere.
But where does He contact with us?

Within.

The King of Kings, our First Brother Jesus Himself, made this quite clear.

Since getting that into my skull, I’ve stopped looking at the sky, wondering when He will appear.
Don’t I understand that He may come ‘down’ from Heaven, or we will rise up to meet Him? Yes. But not in the physical sense of dimensions.

After years of struggle and much tribulation, (and I don’t mean Earthly, our earthly tribulations are nothing compared to our Spiritual tribulations), I see that there can be only one way, His way, that He appears to us when we see Him as He is;

When we are like Him.

He approaches from within.

I figure, if I’m looking at the sky in wonder?  I’m looking in the wrong direction.
He is ‘emerging’ from within me.

When He has fully emerged from within me, I will see Him as He is because I shall be like Him.

For now, I see puzzling reflections in a dirty mirror.
But then, I shall see Him as He is. Face to Face.

Now, I know in part and I prophesy in part.
Then, I shall know Him; just like He knows me.

Let him who has an ear, hear; and if he hears:-

Many Happy Returns !

Grape x

PS. I may be wrong; but I don’t think so.

[Deborah-Leigh]

1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


PERSPECTIVE  DETERMINES PERCEPTION


Arc

[Stacey]

Grape x

PS. I may be wrong; but I don’t think so.

I don't think so either. Man, that's good stuff there Grape! I understood it clearly and can appreciate your understanding, thanks bro 

[grapehound]

Thanks for the heads up, Stacey! 

[Kat]

I had been thinking much as you do Grape. But with Ray's last Bible study I had to stop and think, Ray must be seeing something, so I want to rethink my view on this. So Jesus says you have not seen the Father's shape/form.

John 5:37  And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.

Jesus is speaking to the Jews that persecuted Him, unbelievers. Back in chapter 3 Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about those that will be born into the kingdom, believers.

John 3:8  The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

There seems to be a distinction here, unbelievers that do not have the Spirit indwelling and cannot hear His voice or 'see' Him, but believer do.

John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever,
v. 17  the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.

1John 3:6  Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him.

Only true believers can know/see/hear God. Now it is by the Comforter within that we are preceiving and hearing and seeing, but not yet do we fully comprehend/see while in this flesh.

1Co 13:12  For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then faceG4383 to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall fully know even as I also am fully known.

G4383 prosōpon - face; the front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication presence, person: - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men’s) person, presence.

I think what we are trying to figure out would be is spirit ever visible? Well it makes me think of the story about Elisha and how God revealed all the spirit horses and chariots of fire to his servant.

2Kings 6:15  And the servant of the man of God arose early and went out. And, behold, an army surrounded the city, and horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, Alas, my master! What shall we do?
v. 16  And he answered, Do not fear, for those with us are more than those with them.
v. 17  And Elisha prayed and said, I pray You, Jehovah, open his eyes so that he may see. And Jehovah opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

The way I am thinking now is that maybe because of this flesh we hear/see/know the Spirit within and when the Elect are born into the kingdom they become spirit beings, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). We will know God, He will be revealed and if that form is Jesus the Christ then what more can we ask...

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Whatever the Father is we will have a connection with Him that Jesus Christ does, we will be 'one' and that will satisfy every need that we might have to know the Father.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Astute recognition for Truth and a gift of clarity! Thank you Grape.

In thinking that Father or that Jesus, is outside,   we create  separatation between us and our Creator.  

That God is with us, in us and approaches us from "within" ~ AMEN ~

Kat, I can see how you are thinking. That might not mean I agree with you or need to follow you. I can see your thinking which is how you think that may give me food for thought and inspire me to evolve in my personal association in relationship to Christ in me who is unrestricted, unlimited and intimately personal.

Arc

[grapehound]

Thank you Arc for your understanding.

Kat. I appreciate your candour, but I'm having some difficulty understanding the point you are making.  I in no way approach the scholarship of Ray in these matters. Could you please help me here, by being a little more succinct?  I always value your input.

Every blessing,

Grape

[Drew]

Grape, thank you for the stimulation that caused me to go to Gal. 1 and beyond. Much to cogitate upon.

Bless you.

Drew

I agree with Stacey and Arc and I also want to hear more from Kat concerning her comments. I appreciate her insights, as well.

[gmik]

 1Cr 15:28--    When  all  things  are subjected to Him, then the Son  Himself  also  will be subjected  to the One who subjected  all  things  to Him,.... so that God  may be all in all.

I always figured when we get to the ..."God may be ALL in ALL" age or aion was when we would see/know Him as He is.

Isn't  "God will be all in all"  the final round-up?

[Kat]

Well to me how can God the Father be contained to a shape or image? It just seemed that He is too immense/glorious for that. Here is little part of the Bible study.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113152.html ----------

Since no man at any time has seen or heard the Father, what about Jesus? Jesus said;

John 6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father, save (except) He (Jesus) which is of (from) God, He hath seen the Father.

Then why can’t we? Well we read it before, because we are mortal. When Jesus was with the Father He obviously was not mortal. Remember He lowered Himself, He emptied Himself,
He was “made.” It doesn’t say He was born a little lower than the angels, “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels” (Heb 2:9). He was made. Contrary to so many people that I’m studying.

So the Father has not been seen by any one except the One who is “from God.” Concordant reads this way.

John 6:46 Not that the Father has been seen by anyone, except by the One who is from God. This One has seen the Father. (CLV)
-------------------------------------------------------

I realize this is just a discussion, we're all just sharing what we're seeing at this point.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[daywalker]

Well as I said, I did believe that God the Father could not be contained to a shape or image. It just seemed that He was too immense/glorious for that to me. But in the last Bible study what Ray was saying made me rethink this whole thing. Here is little part of the Bible study.

I'm with ya, Kat!

I don't believe the Father could be "contained" to a shape or form, but who's to say that He can't "appear" in a shape or form, like Jesus did several times after His resurrection? I mean, if Jesus is capable of walking the earth in human form, I would venture to say the Father could if He wanted to. I'm well aware that God is not a human, and no I don't believe the Father is 'an old man with a long grey beard' sitting on some throne somewhere in the celestials (LOL), but that doesn't mean He couldn't "appear" as one if He wanted to. As I said earlier, Jesus never said the Father had NO "voice" or "form". That doesn't belittle Him or 'reduce' Him one iota, in my opinion.

Sometimes, I think people let their imaginations run wild with all this "spiritual" stuff (meaning: spiritual beings, spiritual things). Just because "spirit beings" are invisible to us, doesn't mean they can't be visible ever, at all. Take angels and demons for example. I believe they exist. I can't see them, but I believe they are here. Can angels see each other? I think so. Can demons see each other? I think so. But how? Well, they must have a "form" of some sort that is visible to other spirit beings. How else would "Legion" have known that they "were many" if they couldn't see each other? When God spoke to Satan before Job's trials, could God see Satan? I think so. That would require Satan to have some sort of form, I venture. Could Satan see God? That's a good question, in my opinion. Jesus said no "man" has ever seen God at any time, but Satan is not a man, so perhaps he can see God?

Just speculation, I know. But things gotta make sense to me, and I don't see how the idea of us all being completely "invisible" not being able to see each other, interact with each other, can be of any comfort or joy. I'd like to think that when it's all said and done, we can all hang out together and chat about old times...that could just be my carnal side, though. 


Just sayin... Daywalker 

[grapehound]

I think we may be getting bogged down here with the 'treachery of words'!
Words are pretty clumsy things when it comes to expressing infinitely finer meanings.
From my perspective, words, per se, do not have meaning.  Consciousness has meaning and words are not conscious; they are vehicles of expression.
People have meaning and their expressions of meaning can become occluded by particular usage.
I was reminded of this recently when our dear brother Moises used the word 'baggy' to allude to the stretching of concepts between cultures; but I got what he meant.

This idea of 'seeing' God seems to revolve around the idioms used to express 'perception'.
If you 'see' what I mean! You are not 'seeing' with the eye. You are perceiving with your understanding. See? LOL!

Seriously though Kat, I appreciate that you began your reply by stating:

Well as I said, I did believe that God the Father could not be contained to a shape or image.

OK. I'm fine with that, but that was not the thrust of my conjecture.

Jesus said that who had seen Him had seen the Father.
But God is not a man.................?

Therefore my understanding is the allusion that when we are perfected, we shall be like Him, as Jesus was and is and forever will be.

I did not suggest 'containment' of God in any way; either in form or formless.
I don't think anything I wrote suggested that.

And I've just read Daywalkers post in the middle of this and this whole caboodle seems to have gone off the rails! LOL!  I'm not in disagreement with either of you!

Let me try this.................

As Arc succinctly said in another thread, Perspective is Perception, ie. no other physical person can see out from your eyes. That is your unique perspective. So on this earth we have six and a half billion worlds and counting. Thirteen billion eyes and that's just Humans! And no two have the same perspective.

Now, each perspective has its own Perception, because we internalise what we see and conclude a perception based on that perspective.

Basically all I was saying was that we eventually will be 'like' Jesus because I believe He is the perfect template for Humanity.  Therefore when we see Him we shall be like Him, because Jesus is the image of his Father; OUR Father; and we are made in His image. His likeness.

I wanted simply to express the idea that His indwelling perfection is the potential for each one of us in either of the resurrections, that will be our condition, because He wills it so, and ALL shall be saved.

But, there are decades of Babylon conditioning that some of us are still struggling to escape and it sometimes shows itself in the subtext of some of our posts.  The idea that God is something or someone 'outside' of us is a travesty of theological philosophy; as though there is a separation  between Father and ANY part of His creation, which cannot possibly be, because ALL is contained in Him.

I didn't post to debate, but to placate and heal. That was my sole intention.
There's a lot of hurting out there and I just wanted to reassure the hurting that there is nothing to fear from Daddy's Love, for His will is to prosper us and bring us all from Glory to Glory.

Muchest Luv

Grape x