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Author Topic: I need insight  (Read 5371 times)

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Revilonivek

  • Guest
I need insight
« on: June 29, 2011, 12:40:54 AM »

I came across this scripture, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

These scripture essentially say that a "believer" in Jesus who stops believing that it will be impossible for them to repent again. This sounds as if that "the 'eternal life' offered by Jesus was only eternal as long as a person believed in him?

It's like saying.. once you stop believing in Jesus, its off to burn baby burn.. almost like a curse to the backsliders who stop believing in Christ?

I don't like this "curse or fear" being inflicted on people who have no clue who God really is... I just wish that they will just know that love is unconditional and there's trust that everyone will make it... just not everyone makes it to the highest levels. 

To be honest, I don't care if I am the elect or not. I just want people to be able to live in a unconditional love filled world... people make mistakes... people learn.. even if a person is enlightened then falls down.. its because of this darn world... it's hard to keep ur head up high when the world you live in is so dark. God who is of unconditional love wouldn't say something like that no matter what.. God is capable of reminding someone when they "forget" or fall down... everyone falls down during their spiritual journey... but to say that once someone stops believing, thats it for them? they fail, they're no good. its like a failsafe for religion to function fear into.. Think that scripture was added later.. maybe? because Jesus said he is not the author of fear?

What do you think?

I need insight.. thanks

Denise
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: I need insight
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2011, 12:48:13 AM »

I came across this scripture, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

These scripture essentially say that a "believer" in Jesus who stops believing that it will be impossible for them to repent again. This sounds as if that "the 'eternal life' offered by Jesus was only eternal as long as a person believed in him?

It's like saying.. once you stop believing in Jesus, its off to burn baby burn.. almost like a curse to the backsliders who stop believing in Christ?

I don't like this "curse or fear" being inflicted on people who have no clue who God really is... I just wish that they will just know that love is unconditional and there's trust that everyone will make it... just not everyone makes it to the highest levels. 

To be honest, I don't care if I am the elect or not. I just want people to be able to live in a unconditional love filled world... people make mistakes... people learn.. even if a person is enlightened then falls down.. its because of this darn world... it's hard to keep ur head up high when the world you live in is so dark. God who is of unconditional love wouldn't say something like that no matter what.. God is capable of reminding someone when they "forget" or fall down... everyone falls down during their spiritual journey... but to say that once someone stops believing, thats it for them? they fail, they're no good. its like a failsafe for religion to function fear into.. Think that scripture was added later.. maybe? because Jesus said he is not the author of fear?

What do you think?

I need insight.. thanks

Denise


FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10672.msg92090.html#msg92090

&

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13004.msg114075.html#msg114075


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Revilonivek

  • Guest
Re: I need insight
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2011, 01:51:36 PM »

I came across this scripture, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

These scripture essentially say that a "believer" in Jesus who stops believing that it will be impossible for them to repent again. This sounds as if that "the 'eternal life' offered by Jesus was only eternal as long as a person believed in him?

It's like saying.. once you stop believing in Jesus, its off to burn baby burn.. almost like a curse to the backsliders who stop believing in Christ?

I don't like this "curse or fear" being inflicted on people who have no clue who God really is... I just wish that they will just know that love is unconditional and there's trust that everyone will make it... just not everyone makes it to the highest levels. 

To be honest, I don't care if I am the elect or not. I just want people to be able to live in a unconditional love filled world... people make mistakes... people learn.. even if a person is enlightened then falls down.. its because of this darn world... it's hard to keep ur head up high when the world you live in is so dark. God who is of unconditional love wouldn't say something like that no matter what.. God is capable of reminding someone when they "forget" or fall down... everyone falls down during their spiritual journey... but to say that once someone stops believing, thats it for them? they fail, they're no good. its like a failsafe for religion to function fear into.. Think that scripture was added later.. maybe? because Jesus said he is not the author of fear?

What do you think?

I need insight.. thanks

Denise


FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10672.msg92090.html#msg92090

&

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13004.msg114075.html#msg114075


Hope this helps,

Marques

Thank you Marques,

 I checked out the links  and found them very helpful and comforting. However, I can't help but ignore the earlier verses.

The most interesting verse in Hebrews 6 comes right before verse 4, and right after Paul says that we should move on from the principles of the faith:

 1Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,

 2of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on also of hands, of rising again also of the dead, and of judgment age-during,

 3and this we will do, if God may permit,3 And this will we do, if God permit.

So maybe he is saying, as we leave the doctrines of men, he is comforting his followers that it is impossible to fall away once you are enlightened, to assure they will be alright?

Just a thought?

Because with men it is impossible but with God, anything is possible?

Thoughts?

Denise

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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: I need insight
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2011, 02:14:30 PM »

Thank you Marques,

 I checked out the links  and found them very helpful and comforting. However, I can't help but ignore the earlier verses.

The most interesting verse in Hebrews 6 comes right before verse 4, and right after Paul says that we should move on from the principles of the faith:

 1Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,

 2of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on also of hands, of rising again also of the dead, and of judgment age-during,

 3and this we will do, if God may permit,3 And this will we do, if God permit.

So maybe he is saying, as we leave the doctrines of men, he is comforting his followers that it is impossible to fall away once you are enlightened, to assure they will be alright?

Just a thought?

Because with men it is impossible but with God, anything is possible?

Thoughts?

Denise


I don't think the writer of Hebrews considers the resurrection of the dead and eonian judgment as the 'doctrines of men'. He simply refers to them as 'elementary teachings' [NKJV, NASB, etc.) in Christ. Though they are considered rudimentary from the writer's perspective, they are nonetheless 'in Christ'. The writer speaks of moving into more mature doctrines, but only if the Lord permits.

Also, the writer does not say it is impossible to fall away but rather it is impossible to be 'renewed unto repentance' after falling away once one knows the truth. If one has a knowledge of the truth and how they should live but would rather live by their own standards, then their only end is judgment ['whose end is to be burned' - Heb 6:8].

The fact of the matter is, God is not bringing everyone into a Godly life in this age. It's not that He can't, He simply does not want to. His plan includes using a few that He is calling & choosing, now, to bring the masses under subjection of the Father, later in the next age(s). The people that 'fall away and are impossible to be renewed' were those that God was not choosing in the first place, they were simply called. Many are called but few are chosen.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: I need insight
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2011, 03:11:31 PM »


Hi Denise,

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
v. 5  and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
v. 6  and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.

I believe what is being said in Hebrews 6 is a warning to believers to not become complacent, because there will be some that will fall away and lose out on the first resurrection. There are other warnings like this as well, look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. The wheat is the Elect and the tares are those that were among the wheat and appeared to be one, but was not and was separated at Christ's return and sent to the Lake of fire.

Paul also warned that you need to keep striving and not let down, because he knew that even he could be a castaway. Here is a excerpt from the 2006 Mobile Conference on 'A Word About Humility.'


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg116702.html ----------

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9 that I subject my body and hold it down and bring it under control and all of these things and I keep telling you how to live and how to act and I myself could be a castaway.

1Cor 9:27  But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Now there’s a couple of things we should learn there. Number one is would he ever say such a thing if any of it is not within the realm of possibility for him to be a castaway? Now I want to tell you something, listen carefully to what I’m going I say.

If God has called you, you know He has called us from the foundation of the world (Matt, 25:34), predestined us (Eph. 1:5) to be called and to be justifies and those that He justifies He glorifies and all of that. If God has called you from before the foundation of the world to be one of His Elect, then you will be one of His Elect! You will not and cannot fall away! It’s impossible, I Scripturally believe that firmly, you cannot fall away.

2Peter 1:10  …for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Thes 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 24  Faithful is He that calls you, WHO ALSO WILL DO IT.

But there is a little bit of a problem here. The Scripture says that Christ knows those that are His.

2Tim 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are His…

Why does it say that, that Christ knows those that are His? BECAUSE WE DON'T! We don’t… He knows. We don’t. We don’t know 100%, maybe up there around 99.44%, but we don’t know 100% that we cannot fall away and be a castaway. We won’t be if we truly have been elected of God to be in the first resurrection, but He doesn’t tell us for sure that we are His Elect, it may only APPEAR.

There are these people that were just as sincere as I knew people to be on the outside and I know what happened to some of them. They were not what they appeared, they were not. It’s not that they changed from being an Elect, to not being an Elect. They were never Elect, it just appeared that way from out front.

But if you are an Elect, you will be! So the only question is. . .  Am I?

Well God leaves a little question there. Why? To keep you humble! So you won’t say, well if we knew for sure and just say, ‘forget everything, I’m in like Flynn. I can do no wrong. Maybe I will do some sins and stuff, but it won’t matter, I already know in the end I will be in there.’

So Paul said that and he didn’t lie when he said it, I’ve got to be sure I do the right thing or I could be a castaway myself and what would that be if I’m teaching you all and I be a castaway. I’ve got to be sure I do what is right. So he did say that and it wasn’t a lie.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I think we can surely have confidence if we are sincere, but we have to be careful not to get cocky as well.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Revilonivek

  • Guest
Re: I need insight
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 10:34:43 PM »

Many thanks to Marques and Kat. 

I feel somewhat better.


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