> General Discussions
"Soul Sleep"
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Ian on July 15, 2011, 12:22:57 AM ---
--- Quote from: Akira329 on July 12, 2011, 11:58:56 PM ---
--- Quote from: Ian on July 12, 2011, 10:25:35 PM ---More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".
While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor. 1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.
If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?
Thank you very much. God bless you.
--- End quote ---
I'm not exactly sure what your looking for Ian.
You've gotten really good answers!
What is it about those verses that contradict Psalms 6:5??
Antaiwan
--- End quote ---
If the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor is to be taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5. I had not seen the email that Ray wrote regarding it.
I write in private, so I cannot really get my thoughts down on "paper" before being interrupted (by someone or some thing).
I apologize for not being very coherent. It is hard to clarify what I am trying to say because I am unable to articulate my thoughts. This is due to what I mentioned above.
--- End quote ---
I took a look at the entire chapter of Samuel to see what I could out of it. I personally don't see it as anything contradicting to the fact that when you are dead, you're dead. I can't say for certain what saul saw, but I want to lean on the idea that He was seeing a vision of sorts. That it wasn't LITERALLY happening. A vision that God caused him to have, though we do see a conversation between saul and the dead samual, I do believe it was just a vision he was having when he visited this woman.
As far as Isaiah is concerned; I really can't see AT ALL what your confusion is or how this contradicts what is said in Psalms6:5.
Hell = Hades = The unseen, the unpercievable = The grave. Everyone goes to "hell" one day or another.
Lastly, with Job, again.. not really sure where the confusion lies. Job is talking about a FUTURE time, notice he uses the words "SHALL (meaning future) and "LATTER DAYS" (meaning future.)
Thats all I have for now... Just think carefully, remember God doesn't contradict Himself and neither do His Words.
Hope this helps!
God bless,
Alex
Ian:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on July 15, 2011, 01:43:03 AM ---
--- Quote from: Ian on July 15, 2011, 12:22:57 AM ---
--- Quote from: Akira329 on July 12, 2011, 11:58:56 PM ---
--- Quote from: Ian on July 12, 2011, 10:25:35 PM ---More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".
While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor. 1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.
If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?
Thank you very much. God bless you.
--- End quote ---
I'm not exactly sure what your looking for Ian.
You've gotten really good answers!
What is it about those verses that contradict Psalms 6:5??
Antaiwan
--- End quote ---
If the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor is to be taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5. I had not seen the email that Ray wrote regarding it.
I write in private, so I cannot really get my thoughts down on "paper" before being interrupted (by someone or some thing).
I apologize for not being very coherent. It is hard to clarify what I am trying to say because I am unable to articulate my thoughts. This is due to what I mentioned above.
--- End quote ---
I took a look at the entire chapter of Samuel to see what I could out of it. I personally don't see it as anything contradicting to the fact that when you are dead, you're dead. I can't say for certain what saul saw, but I want to lean on the idea that He was seeing a vision of sorts. That it wasn't LITERALLY happening. A vision that God caused him to have, though we do see a conversation between saul and the dead samual, I do believe it was just a vision he was having when he visited this woman.
As far as Isaiah is concerned; I really can't see AT ALL what your confusion is or how this contradicts what is said in Psalms6:5.
Hell = Hades = The unseen, the unpercievable = The grave. Everyone goes to "hell" one day or another.
Lastly, with Job, again.. not really sure where the confusion lies. Job is talking about a FUTURE time, notice he uses the words "SHALL (meaning future) and "LATTER DAYS" (meaning future.)
Thats all I have for now... Just think carefully, remember God doesn't contradict Himself and neither do His Words.
Hope this helps!
God bless,
Alex
--- End quote ---
I apologize, Alex.
My confusion is due to that site I posted. Since I cannot post the link to the site, I will write a quotation.
--- Quote --- Both the Old and New Testaments give clear indication that there is,
indeed, a life after death.
1. Many Old Testament scriptures make reference to a life after death.
Job 19:25-27 "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand
at the latter day upon the earth; and though after my skin worms destroy this
body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: whom I shall see for myself, and mine
eyes shall behold, and not another..."
Psalms 16:9, 10 "... my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave
my soul in hell..."
Isaiah 5:14, 15 "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth
without measure; and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that
rejoiceth, shall descend into it. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the
mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled."
Isaiah 14:9 "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming;
it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth..."
B. The reason there is no knowledge, wisdom, worship, or praise in
the grave (see Psalms 6:5; 88:10-12; 115:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes
9:5, 10; Isaiah 38:18 – scriptures used by promoters of the
"soul-sleep" doctrine) is that the intelligence of man is not in the
body, which, in the grave returns to dust (Ecclesiastes 3:20) – but
in the spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11), which returns to God (Ecclesiastes
3:21; 12:7).
--- End quote ---
I don't believe what she had written; I feel that she had forced her theology on the text.
Forgive me for being confused.
Kat:
Hi Ian,
This thing about death and the grave is confusing when you try to rectify it with all of the teaching out there that the body dies, but the spirit lives on.
Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer liveth...
This is true Christ is now "a High Priest, who has sat down on the right of the throne of the Majesty in Heaven" (Heb. 8:1).
v. 25 ...and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth;
This is true as it says in Zec 14:1 "Behold, the day of Jehovah comes..." v. 4 "And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives." This has not happen yet, it "comes." His return is what will bring about the end of this age and the beginning of His rule on earth.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and act wisely, and shall do judgment and justice in the earth.
Job 19:26 and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
This is true Job died, but he believed there would be a resurrection of the dead, when his 'Redeemer" returns and he will once again be flesh and blood.
v. 27 whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another..."
Yes when God resurrects people they will have their human spirit (that has been in safe keeping with God, Ecc 12:7) returned to them. As Job also knew we would have our memory and same personality and character that we had before returned to us.
Psalms 16:9 "... my flesh also shall rest in hope.
v. 10 For You wilt not leave my soul in hell..."
Christ spoke of death as sleep, so it is like the body is at rest until the resurrection. Concordant Version has a better translation of verse 10.
Psalms 16:10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen...
Our only hope is for resurrection and Job says that is what he thought/hoped for before died, that God would not leave him dead in the grave.
Isaiah 5:14, 15 "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure; and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled."
Yes hell/hades/unseen/grave is enlarging, there is more going to the grave every day. It is quite humbling to know that you are going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop that. But I guess a lot (the great majority) of people don't believe that at all. They think that just the body dies, but the spirit lives on some place else and they have all these verses about 'hell' to prove it... "strong delusion" (2Thes 2:11). The spirit goes back to God to keep until resurrection.
Isaiah 14:9 "Hell from beneath is moved for Thee to meet Thee at Thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for Thee, even all the chief ones of the earth..."
This verse speaks of Christ return and the resurrection of the dead spoken of in Rev. 20.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it...
v, 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell (hades/unseen/grave) delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
When you come to understand the basics of the truth then all of the Scriptures fit together nicely in what they teach.
Psa 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth... (CLV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
CEO:
Kat
Once you get it then it is easy to get it ?
Charles O
Duane:
Ian...I had a million pieces and bits of the Church of Babylon floating around my head and I kept reading and reading then all of a sudden it all fell in place. This will happen to you.
One word of advice that i found unbelievably helpful is when some (like Kat) refers you to one of Ray's articles, be SURE to read it because it keeps the moderators from having to re-write what has already been written.
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