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Author Topic: Does God have 'Free Will'?  (Read 7728 times)

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John from Kentucky

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Does God have 'Free Will'?
« on: June 30, 2011, 04:32:32 PM »

If these angels willingly or voluntarily left their own place, then it means they had free will and God is not sovereign.

Not it doesn't. People willingly sin all day long but that doesn't mean they have free will. We all have a will and things we volunteer to do. But our will is not free of cause and circumstances that we cannot control. God is the author of all causes & circumstance in everyone's life.

Since only God has a free will, then it must have been the Father's will that these angels rebelled and left their appointed places.

Free will does not exist, so no one has it. It's a myth, similar to a rock so heavy even God can't lift it...no such thing exists.



Marques

I agree with your first statement.

Totally disagree with your second statement.  God the Father is sovereign.  God the Father has free will.  Who is going to stop God the Father?  Who can tell Him no?  Who can stop Him from doing what He wills?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 11:11:27 AM by mharrell08 »
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mharrell08

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2011, 05:14:36 PM »

Totally disagree with your second statement.  God the Father is sovereign.  God the Father has free will.  Who is going to stop God the Father?  Who can tell Him no?  Who can stop Him from doing what He wills

God's sovereignty has nothing to do with free will. Free will does not exist, seeing as there is a cause for everything. We can discuss the 'causes' as to why God does the things that He does some other time.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 11:12:00 AM by mharrell08 »
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2011, 08:38:59 PM »

Totally disagree with your second statement.  God the Father is sovereign.  God the Father has free will.  Who is going to stop God the Father?  Who can tell Him no?  Who can stop Him from doing what He wills

God's sovereignty has nothing to do with free will. Free will does not exist, seeing as there is a cause for everything. We can discuss the 'causes' as to why God does the things that He does some other time.

You couldn't be more wrong.  God's sovereignty has everything to do with His free will.  A free will is a will that is under no external constraints or influence.

There is nothing external to God the Father greater than Himself.  Now, He has put internal constraints on Himself.  For example He does not lie.  Not that He cannot lie, just that He does not lie.

God created evil, but He Himself is not evil.  He has decided to follow good based upon the counsel of His own will.

If the Father ever decided to go the way of evil, who is going to stop Him?  The police?  All the world's armies?  The US Navy SEAL Team 6?

No one can stop the Father.  No one controls Him.  That is why His will is free.  That is why He only is the sovereign God.

Also, those angels who voluntarily sinned?  Yes, in their hearts they did freely sin.  However, those who have the spiritual understanding, those who can see behind the curtain, know that ultimately it was God the Father who willed that they sin and brought about the circumstances, even if intermediaries were used to do the dirty deed.  The Father is responsible for all.  Even the little birds don't die without His permission.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 11:12:12 AM by mharrell08 »
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mharrell08

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Re: AGE OR ETERNAL ?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2011, 11:08:42 PM »

Totally disagree with your second statement.  God the Father is sovereign.  God the Father has free will.  Who is going to stop God the Father?  Who can tell Him no?  Who can stop Him from doing what He wills

God's sovereignty has nothing to do with free will. Free will does not exist, seeing as there is a cause for everything. We can discuss the 'causes' as to why God does the things that He does some other time.

You couldn't be more wrong.  God's sovereignty has everything to do with His free will.  A free will is a will that is under no external constraints or influence.

There is nothing external to God the Father greater than Himself.  Now, He has put internal constraints on Himself.  For example He does not lie.  Not that He cannot lie, just that He does not lie.

God created evil, but He Himself is not evil.  He has decided to follow good based upon the counsel of His own will.

If the Father ever decided to go the way of evil, who is going to stop Him?  The police?  All the world's armies?  The US Navy SEAL Team 6?

No one can stop the Father.  No one controls Him.  That is why His will is free.  That is why He only is the sovereign God.

Also, those angels who voluntarily sinned?  Yes, in their hearts they did freely sin.  However, those who have the spiritual understanding, those who can see behind the curtain, know that ultimately it was God the Father who willed that they sin and brought about the circumstances, even if intermediaries were used to do the dirty deed.  The Father is responsible for all.  Even the little birds don't die without His permission.


I don't see how 'internal constraints' also means free...the word free means 'without constraints'.

Actually, you've almost proven the issue of God not having free will...but I wouldn't describe it as 'constraining Himself'. I would simply say God only does things that ultimately result in displaying His Love, because God is Love. One cannot be something they are not.

It has nothing to do with taking this mythical power of 'free will' from God...it's about proving that the concept of free will, in and of
itself, does not exist. Ray calls this section of the LOF series 'the MYTH of free will exposed'...not 'only God has free will'. If it is truly a myth, it does not exist.

A will is not the initial driving force in any action...it is one's desires. The heart is the initial driving force in any action. The will is simply making the choice based on what one desires in their heart. God expresses His desires all throughout the scriptures. These desires are what drives His Will...and as His desires are based on Love, ultimately, everything He wills to do will also be of Love.

His Will isn't free, it's subject to His desires. And that, in a nutshell, is WHY free will does not exist.


Thanks,

Marques


Note: I moved this discussion for the sake of not taking attention away from the previous thread 'Age or Eternal'.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 11:14:33 AM by mharrell08 »
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2011, 04:09:56 PM »

Marques,

I find anything about God to be an endlessly fascinating subject.  You say God does not have free will.  I say He does.  We both cannot be correct.

One thing that unites us on the BT Forum is that we have been drawn to Ray's teachings on the scriptures.  We recognize that He is a gifted teacher of the scriptures.

You are correct in that Ray wrote in his LOF articles about "the myth of free will exposed".  However, in my reading of Ray's articles, I understood him to be dismissing mankind's belief that man has free will.  I do not see where Ray discusses that God the Father does not have free will.  Can you show me where Ray says God the Father does not have free will in any of Ray's writings?

On the other hand, Ray did have a February 2008 bible study called "Foundational Truths".  There is a section called "God Does Not Lie".  Ray discussed Titus 1:2 that says "...God, that cannot lie" per the King James version.  Ray brought out that the Concordant version says, "...God, Who does not lie.

Ray said that it is not that God cannot lie, but that He does not lie.  There is a difference between can not and does not.  If God cannot lie, then it would seem He does not have free will.  On the other hand, if God does not lie, then it would seem He does have a free will (ie. God could lie if He wanted to, but He has chosen not to lie----Which is God's free choice, His free will, not under the control or influence of anything but Himself.

Also, from Genesis through Revelation, God reveals Himself as the Almighty God, not subject to any other force.  He states that there is no other God.  By definition of His Name, God is free from all things.  Who can impose anything on Him?  God is the essence of freedom.

Do you have two or three scriptures that state God does not have free will?  Is there anything impossible to our Great God?  I would like to know the direct source of your opinion that God does not have free will.

All of my comments are in the context of a friendly discussion.  However, it is kind of funny for two human beings talking about God Who neither of us have seen or heard.   ;D

John
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mharrell08

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2011, 04:42:32 PM »

No John, I do not believe free will exists. Nothing originates from the will, the will is not a driving force.

A will is simply the ability to make a choice. But one will only choose what they prefer, or better stated, what they desire. Here are a few scriptures that God talks of doing that which He desires:

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’


God's pleasures (step 1) lead to what God 'Wills' (or chooses - step 2) which leads to what God works (step 3). Step 2 never comes before Step 1 and this is not a limitation, at least not in my eyes.

What makes God sovereign is the fact He can accomplish all His desires. But that's what comes first, not the will. That's why 'free will' is a myth. The will is always subject to one's desires.

The greatest thing (at least to me) from Ray's study on this subject is he went to the 'root' of this whole issue. That's man is subject to his desires, and that God manipulates those desires through cause & circumstance that are completely out of man's control.

When we preach all will be saved, people just can't get over the fact that not only will all receive salvation, but everyone will WANT to worship God. Everyone's greatest desire will be to be one with God. He's not going to 'force' anyone to worship Him, He is simply going to teach them in a way where that is the #1 thing they themselves want.

That's what makes universal salvation a true miracle. Everyone of their own volition, not forced, will truly want to love and be with God.



Marques

P.S. But seriously John, I'm not going to keep repeating this point. I've explained my thinking as simply as I can. If you don't agree, let's just move on.
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daywalker

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2011, 05:08:41 PM »


Pardon the friendly interruption, fellas, but I'd like to add my two cents...

The whole point of Ray's teachings on "free will" is that nobody ever makes a choice without a reason (or "cause"). One example he uses somewhere is a man loving his wife. (if you really like, I will locate the exact quote later) He says does a man love his wife "freely, without a cause"? Of course, not. There are many reasons why a man loves his wife. Likewise, there are many "reasons" for why God does what He does. This in no way limits His abilities or negates His total sovereignty over all His Creation. He is God (period).


Hope this helps... Daywalker  8)

PS: The fact that the phrase "free will" is unscriptural (no Hebrew or Greek equivalent) should also be put into consideration.
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Kat

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2011, 05:41:22 PM »


Here are a couple of emails to add to the discussion, maybe it will help.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2142.0 -------------------

Dear Micahel:
I will not debate you on your questions, however, I will make a few COMMENTS in your email, and that will be the end of it...........

 
Dear Mr. Smith,

I've been pondering your views on "Free Will" and it seems that we humans cannot make choices without "cause and effect (consequence)".

But, is not God also in the same boat??

COMMENT:  God is not in a "boat."  And, No, God is not on the same level as humans either.

Can even God have "Free Will" and make decisions (choices) without "cause and effect (consequence)"??

COMMENT:  The term "free will" means a will without a cause. The term "free choice" means a choice that has no cause.  Now then, Does man have a will that has no cause behind it? NO.  Does God make choices that have no cause?  We need to be very careful when we try to use words applied to humanity as though they equally apply to God. Choice can mean to pick from a number of possibilities.  In this usage, God does not make choices. God knows and always persues the ONLY WISE COURSE or action.  So if we mean by choice, Selecting that which we prefer, then God does in that sense make a choice, since He always does what He prefers to do.  But these things do not come from nowhere, nor do they come from an outside or higher power. There is no outside higher power than God.  But The Scriptures do tell us by what method or means God does what He does:

"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the PURPOSE of Him [God] Who works all things after THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL"  (Eph. 1:11).

There is your answers.


If the answer "Yes", then why does this answer not also apply to people, since we are in the image of God?

COMMENT:  We are NOT as yet "in the image of God." (Rom. 8:29).

If the answer is "No"", then God is not sovereign ---  since even He does not have "Free Will" and is subject to "Cause and Effect"

COMMENT:  This statement is nonsense.

God be with you,

Ray


What sayest thou?

Please Show real Example(s) for your answer.

Peace,
Michael

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5146.msg40669.html#msg40669 ---

Dear Dean:  Regarding the Forum's question as to whether God has a free will or not:
 
"Free will" is not a topic of Scripture. Humanity absolutely does not have a free will/free choice disposition. All thoughts and actions have a cause. God, however, is the First Cause. God answers to no one and no one dictates or causes God to think or do anything--all Protestant and Catholic prayers to the contrary included.  However, we are told in the Scriptures who "God cannot lie," for example or why God never "changes his mind."  This is a governing factor to God's disposition, but it is not an outside force. Here is how God thinks and operates everything in the universe:
 
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [operates] ALL THINGS AFTER THE  C-O-U-N-S-E-L  OF  H-I-S   O-W-N  W-I-L-L"  (Eph. 1:11).
 
God be with you,
Ray

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John from Kentucky

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2011, 08:51:11 PM »

Moving on down the road where He directs me.
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G. Driggs

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 01:27:16 AM »


You are correct in that Ray wrote in his LOF articles about "the myth of free will exposed".  However, in my reading of Ray's articles, I understood him to be dismissing mankind's belief that man has free will.  I do not see where Ray discusses that God the Father does not have free will.  Can you show me where Ray says God the Father does not have free will in any of Ray's writings?

On the other hand, Ray did have a February 2008 bible study called "Foundational Truths".  There is a section called "God Does Not Lie".  Ray discussed Titus 1:2 that says "...God, that cannot lie" per the King James version.  Ray brought out that the Concordant version says, "...God, Who does not lie.

Ray said that it is not that God cannot lie, but that He does not lie.  There is a difference between can not and does not.  If God cannot lie, then it would seem He does not have free will.  On the other hand, if God does not lie, then it would seem He does have a free will (ie. God could lie if He wanted to, but He has chosen not to lie----Which is God's free choice, His free will, not under the control or influence of anything but Himself.

John

This excerpt might help explain why God does not lie. Although Ray does not specifically say God does not have a free will, it really seems Ray is saying in other words that God does not have a free will.
-------------------

Aug. 2008 Bible study FREE WILL
                                                   
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12957.0.html

Now let me ask the question, if we don’t have a freedom to do anything we want, nothing causes us, forces us, makes us, influences us, we are totally free from all that. What about God, is God free to do anything? [Comment: He never changes.] Yeah, but is He free to change? [He’s God He can do anything He wants.] [He is subject to the council of His own will.] There you go Harry. He can do anything He wants like Denny says, but He doesn’t want! Why doesn’t He want? Well He just freely decided that He doesn’t want? No, that’s not what the Bible says. We want to stick with the Scripture and believe the Scripture, so let’s look at the Scripture and believe what the Scripture say.


                                          ALL UNDER LAW

You all know that the Bible says God cannot lie. Right?

Titus 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie…

If He has freedom of will, then He can lie. Am I right? If His will is FREE, there is no such thing as He cannot lie. Well if He cannot lie, why can’t He lie? Has someone told Him He can’t lie?

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him (God) who works all things after the counsel of His own will:

I don’t suppose you would be too far off  base if you were to say, He works out all things after the LAW of His on will. Because the council of God is law. It’s like in ‘The King and I,’ so let it be written, so let it be done. That‘s the law baby.

So is God free to lie? NO! No He is not. Because He has determined by the counsel of His own will that He will not and can not lie.
[/b]
-----------------

G.Driggs
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Joel

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 02:01:21 AM »

God has all power, and does as he pleases.
Psalms 115:3
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he pleased.

Psalms 135 5-6
For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods. Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in the earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

Sometimes I don't think I have enough "power" to blow my nose. Free will. ??? :D :)

Joel
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Foxx

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2011, 04:41:10 AM »

This whole "free will" thing is part of the Greek and Roman reasoning for things that has come along thanks to the church. Modern day reasoning is hinged on this form or thinking whereas the Jews were a people who believed in God because he TOLD them to do something.
Personally I don't think it exists even for God. I think the concern of saying God does not have free will may mean to some that it implies that his power, control, abilities, omnipitence is somehow circumvented or undermind if he does not possess such a thing.

Does God have free will? Is there a cause for what he does? Free will is defined by mankind as the ability to make choices with no cause or supernatural influences? Was there a cause for why God has chosen to do the things that he has? Absolutely! Does this diminish his power or knowledge of what is best for us? Of course not! This is a matter of faith and trusting in him as the being and source for what is best for us in this universe...just as the Jews did long before our Lord, Jesus Christ even came along.

Even the concept alone is a pointless one...I would hope that there was a reason and purpose inside of our God's heart that caused him to do everything that he has.  That purpose could be one of that he was lonely and desired companionship, who knows exactly. But I'm sure there are causes for his actions and if this is the case then even our all powerful Father does not have this made up ability called "free will" ... not that it would matter because he is in fact ALL POWERFUL.

I guess I wonder why is it so important that someone, ANYONE has the ability of free will... even if its God? I mean I understand that wanting to know the truth of the matter is important but after everything we have learned on this site and others about how evil, pagan, stupid and just flat out impossibly wrong it is, I have to wonder could it be any clearer? Why is it so important that God has this ability even if we do not? God has done things according to his own council...but that does not mean there was no cause for it. He gets what he wants and in the end knows what is best for us. As the Jews had faith in him for no other reason than to obey and believe we should also keep this in mind and know that even if he doesn't have "free will" he is infinitely more powerful and loving than us.



« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 04:53:28 AM by Foxx »
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acomplishedartis

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2011, 04:58:23 AM »


I know not much about science, but here is some very interesting article from 'max planck insitute' about free will (http://www.mpg.de/567905/pressRelease20080414), the end of the article is baggy and suspicious weather the lack of free will on the experiment is astounding.

I think that people brains that know the truth about our lack of freewill are way more intelligent than the ones that keep thinking that they are doing things all the time just because they will it out of thin air (not literally speaking). People that think that they have free will is deceived and controled more easy. Maybe these is why the people in the top preffer to keep the sheep's dumb. (And dumb sheep's love having their precious ''idea'' that they are the master of their life, that they create their own destinies and that all the miserable and evil and ''nonbeliever'' people are in that state because they freely chose it.

I do know some about how does marketing works, and believe me, these guys does knows that there is no free-will (at list with actions they show it) and that is why good marketers have the power to rise behaviour with out a doubt. Now days there is even neuro-marketing.

The think with no free-will is that soon or later it will drags us to the first cause of everything, witch is GOD and then after that, these knowlege can drag us to question God's motives to make everythings as it is, thanks God, we have answers (in the Scriptures), and the main one is, the 'Good news'.


Still we can come to say, okay, there is no free-will and then forget of it and keep living in many areas as if we believe that we have it, or we can keep meditating, putting it together with Scriptures and asking our selves often;if no free-will then.....................................
and we will never finish but our life perceptions might grow, the road is very long, on the way time will seem to shrink for us.


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jeetkunejimi

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2011, 07:21:48 AM »

My dear old dad thought that he was FREE to write his WILL out,but God took him before he had the CHOICE to and now the government have FREELY taken his house CAUSING me to lose my PREDESTINED inheritance. I guess you'd call that CIRCUMSTANCE a no win situation,lol.

We've all just got to learn to accept the WILL OF ALMIGHTY GOD. Amen ;D ;D.
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cjwood

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2011, 02:59:33 AM »

reading through ray's responses in the old emails posted by some of the members here, i think i am seeing maybe that ray is saying something like this:

    God the Father does not have free will, because there is nothing that He wills that is not caused by something. and that something is counsel.  the counsel of something.  His own will.  i.e. His will is not free from counsel.  who's counsel effects His will?  His own.  His will is caused by counsel.  a will that comes about as a result of something that caused it, is not free.  so, therefore God the Father does not have free will either.

if i am way off base here i apologize.  need to go to bed.

claudia

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2011, 05:03:13 AM »



An excellent summery Claudia!

As is the Alpha, (first) AND (last), the Omega, is ~ I AM.

So too can free (without cause) and will (with cause) be One ~ :)

Arc

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Akira329

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2011, 06:45:59 AM »



An excellent summery Claudia!

As is the Alpha, (first) AND (last), the Omega, is ~ I AM.

So too can free (without cause) and will (with cause) be One ~ :)

Arc



huh ???
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Stacey

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2011, 07:25:47 AM »

Claudia, I was thinking about the counsel of His will also but have almost came to the exact opposite conclusion as you. Strange how we all of supposed like minds are not all that alike sometimes.

I could be way off base too and thinking the opposite of what Ray teaches but not intentionally. Was thinking on this thread all night last night and can't get it out of my mind. Seems that if we agree that "with God all things are possible" AND that God, more specifically the Father has no free will then something is out of line here. At least for me anyway.

The verses that marques used to show that God is subject to the counsel of His own will are good ones but I have a lot of questions about those verses.

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’


I'm not trying to prove anything here. Just making an effort to work out my own salvation in accord with like minded believers.

I was looking closer (paying close attention to all the words) at these verses and to me there is a issue with who it is that is subject to his own will. All the words are important but the him's, he's and the counsel words give a stronger clue as to who it is that has the counseled will. What is a counseled will? After looking up the word "counsel", to say that it is a will subject to advise is a good definition for that.

To say that Jesus is subject to the counsel of his own will is exactly what I believe the verses are saying but, BIG but, what do the verses NOT say? They do not say that the Father is subject to anything and that is where the water gets muddy. Are there verses that say otherwise? At this point I am not prepared to say or agree that the Father is subject to ANYTHING. Jesus, yes by all means, He is subject to the counsel of his own will which is controlled by the Father and we likewise are subject to the counsel of our own will. To work it according to or to be subject to the counsel of is to not be in control of the counsel and also to be below it, isn't it? This counsel we are talking about is the surrounding circumstances that influence our decisions right?

I'm not settled on any of my thinking here yet. Might not get settled til after the resurrection either but considering the "will we ever see the Father" thread and this one, they are related in ways that led me to what I have said above and also to understand a little better just who or what the Father really is. Thank God. No, thank the Father!

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Craig

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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2011, 08:57:40 AM »

Folks I'm going to lock this thread now because it is just one of those threads that there is no correct answer and how can we come to an agreement on that?  Half fall in to the camp John was espousing and half with what Marques was pointing out.  I personally think they are both right and I may someday get into politics :D.  One may be right and one wrong or neither right or they both are right and they are just eating the same banana from opposite ends.  The problem here is we are trying to assign human reasoning to God and that does not work.  How can we, using our puny human terms and reasoning, try to define Gods sovereignty, reasoning and actions?

I appreciate the thread staying civil and respectful to each other.  This is one of those discussions that we can agree to disagree on and discuss it one day while playing a harp on a cloud somewhere.

Craig
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