> General Discussions
Does God have 'Free Will'?
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on June 30, 2011, 12:45:39 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 30, 2011, 12:21:43 PM ---If these angels willingly or voluntarily left their own place, then it means they had free will and God is not sovereign.
--- End quote ---
Not it doesn't. People willingly sin all day long but that doesn't mean they have free will. We all have a will and things we volunteer to do. But our will is not free of cause and circumstances that we cannot control. God is the author of all causes & circumstance in everyone's life.
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 30, 2011, 12:21:43 PM ---Since only God has a free will, then it must have been the Father's will that these angels rebelled and left their appointed places.
--- End quote ---
Free will does not exist, so no one has it. It's a myth, similar to a rock so heavy even God can't lift it...no such thing exists.
Marques
--- End quote ---
I agree with your first statement.
Totally disagree with your second statement. God the Father is sovereign. God the Father has free will. Who is going to stop God the Father? Who can tell Him no? Who can stop Him from doing what He wills?
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 30, 2011, 01:32:32 PM ---Totally disagree with your second statement. God the Father is sovereign. God the Father has free will. Who is going to stop God the Father? Who can tell Him no? Who can stop Him from doing what He wills
--- End quote ---
God's sovereignty has nothing to do with free will. Free will does not exist, seeing as there is a cause for everything. We can discuss the 'causes' as to why God does the things that He does some other time.
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on June 30, 2011, 02:14:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 30, 2011, 01:32:32 PM ---Totally disagree with your second statement. God the Father is sovereign. God the Father has free will. Who is going to stop God the Father? Who can tell Him no? Who can stop Him from doing what He wills
--- End quote ---
God's sovereignty has nothing to do with free will. Free will does not exist, seeing as there is a cause for everything. We can discuss the 'causes' as to why God does the things that He does some other time.
--- End quote ---
You couldn't be more wrong. God's sovereignty has everything to do with His free will. A free will is a will that is under no external constraints or influence.
There is nothing external to God the Father greater than Himself. Now, He has put internal constraints on Himself. For example He does not lie. Not that He cannot lie, just that He does not lie.
God created evil, but He Himself is not evil. He has decided to follow good based upon the counsel of His own will.
If the Father ever decided to go the way of evil, who is going to stop Him? The police? All the world's armies? The US Navy SEAL Team 6?
No one can stop the Father. No one controls Him. That is why His will is free. That is why He only is the sovereign God.
Also, those angels who voluntarily sinned? Yes, in their hearts they did freely sin. However, those who have the spiritual understanding, those who can see behind the curtain, know that ultimately it was God the Father who willed that they sin and brought about the circumstances, even if intermediaries were used to do the dirty deed. The Father is responsible for all. Even the little birds don't die without His permission.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 30, 2011, 05:38:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on June 30, 2011, 02:14:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 30, 2011, 01:32:32 PM ---Totally disagree with your second statement. God the Father is sovereign. God the Father has free will. Who is going to stop God the Father? Who can tell Him no? Who can stop Him from doing what He wills
--- End quote ---
God's sovereignty has nothing to do with free will. Free will does not exist, seeing as there is a cause for everything. We can discuss the 'causes' as to why God does the things that He does some other time.
--- End quote ---
You couldn't be more wrong. God's sovereignty has everything to do with His free will. A free will is a will that is under no external constraints or influence.
There is nothing external to God the Father greater than Himself. Now, He has put internal constraints on Himself. For example He does not lie. Not that He cannot lie, just that He does not lie.
God created evil, but He Himself is not evil. He has decided to follow good based upon the counsel of His own will.
If the Father ever decided to go the way of evil, who is going to stop Him? The police? All the world's armies? The US Navy SEAL Team 6?
No one can stop the Father. No one controls Him. That is why His will is free. That is why He only is the sovereign God.
Also, those angels who voluntarily sinned? Yes, in their hearts they did freely sin. However, those who have the spiritual understanding, those who can see behind the curtain, know that ultimately it was God the Father who willed that they sin and brought about the circumstances, even if intermediaries were used to do the dirty deed. The Father is responsible for all. Even the little birds don't die without His permission.
--- End quote ---
I don't see how 'internal constraints' also means free...the word free means 'without constraints'.
Actually, you've almost proven the issue of God not having free will...but I wouldn't describe it as 'constraining Himself'. I would simply say God only does things that ultimately result in displaying His Love, because God is Love. One cannot be something they are not.
It has nothing to do with taking this mythical power of 'free will' from God...it's about proving that the concept of free will, in and of
itself, does not exist. Ray calls this section of the LOF series 'the MYTH of free will exposed'...not 'only God has free will'. If it is truly a myth, it does not exist.
A will is not the initial driving force in any action...it is one's desires. The heart is the initial driving force in any action. The will is simply making the choice based on what one desires in their heart. God expresses His desires all throughout the scriptures. These desires are what drives His Will...and as His desires are based on Love, ultimately, everything He wills to do will also be of Love.
His Will isn't free, it's subject to His desires. And that, in a nutshell, is WHY free will does not exist.
Thanks,
Marques
Note: I moved this discussion for the sake of not taking attention away from the previous thread 'Age or Eternal'.
John from Kentucky:
Marques,
I find anything about God to be an endlessly fascinating subject. You say God does not have free will. I say He does. We both cannot be correct.
One thing that unites us on the BT Forum is that we have been drawn to Ray's teachings on the scriptures. We recognize that He is a gifted teacher of the scriptures.
You are correct in that Ray wrote in his LOF articles about "the myth of free will exposed". However, in my reading of Ray's articles, I understood him to be dismissing mankind's belief that man has free will. I do not see where Ray discusses that God the Father does not have free will. Can you show me where Ray says God the Father does not have free will in any of Ray's writings?
On the other hand, Ray did have a February 2008 bible study called "Foundational Truths". There is a section called "God Does Not Lie". Ray discussed Titus 1:2 that says "...God, that cannot lie" per the King James version. Ray brought out that the Concordant version says, "...God, Who does not lie.
Ray said that it is not that God cannot lie, but that He does not lie. There is a difference between can not and does not. If God cannot lie, then it would seem He does not have free will. On the other hand, if God does not lie, then it would seem He does have a free will (ie. God could lie if He wanted to, but He has chosen not to lie----Which is God's free choice, His free will, not under the control or influence of anything but Himself.
Also, from Genesis through Revelation, God reveals Himself as the Almighty God, not subject to any other force. He states that there is no other God. By definition of His Name, God is free from all things. Who can impose anything on Him? God is the essence of freedom.
Do you have two or three scriptures that state God does not have free will? Is there anything impossible to our Great God? I would like to know the direct source of your opinion that God does not have free will.
All of my comments are in the context of a friendly discussion. However, it is kind of funny for two human beings talking about God Who neither of us have seen or heard. ;D
John
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