> General Discussions
Does God have 'Free Will'?
mharrell08:
No John, I do not believe free will exists. Nothing originates from the will, the will is not a driving force.
A will is simply the ability to make a choice. But one will only choose what they prefer, or better stated, what they desire. Here are a few scriptures that God talks of doing that which He desires:
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’
God's pleasures (step 1) lead to what God 'Wills' (or chooses - step 2) which leads to what God works (step 3). Step 2 never comes before Step 1 and this is not a limitation, at least not in my eyes.
What makes God sovereign is the fact He can accomplish all His desires. But that's what comes first, not the will. That's why 'free will' is a myth. The will is always subject to one's desires.
The greatest thing (at least to me) from Ray's study on this subject is he went to the 'root' of this whole issue. That's man is subject to his desires, and that God manipulates those desires through cause & circumstance that are completely out of man's control.
When we preach all will be saved, people just can't get over the fact that not only will all receive salvation, but everyone will WANT to worship God. Everyone's greatest desire will be to be one with God. He's not going to 'force' anyone to worship Him, He is simply going to teach them in a way where that is the #1 thing they themselves want.
That's what makes universal salvation a true miracle. Everyone of their own volition, not forced, will truly want to love and be with God.
Marques
P.S. But seriously John, I'm not going to keep repeating this point. I've explained my thinking as simply as I can. If you don't agree, let's just move on.
daywalker:
Pardon the friendly interruption, fellas, but I'd like to add my two cents...
The whole point of Ray's teachings on "free will" is that nobody ever makes a choice without a reason (or "cause"). One example he uses somewhere is a man loving his wife. (if you really like, I will locate the exact quote later) He says does a man love his wife "freely, without a cause"? Of course, not. There are many reasons why a man loves his wife. Likewise, there are many "reasons" for why God does what He does. This in no way limits His abilities or negates His total sovereignty over all His Creation. He is God (period).
Hope this helps... Daywalker 8)
PS: The fact that the phrase "free will" is unscriptural (no Hebrew or Greek equivalent) should also be put into consideration.
Kat:
Here are a couple of emails to add to the discussion, maybe it will help.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2142.0 -------------------
Dear Micahel:
I will not debate you on your questions, however, I will make a few COMMENTS in your email, and that will be the end of it...........
Dear Mr. Smith,
I've been pondering your views on "Free Will" and it seems that we humans cannot make choices without "cause and effect (consequence)".
But, is not God also in the same boat??
COMMENT: God is not in a "boat." And, No, God is not on the same level as humans either.
Can even God have "Free Will" and make decisions (choices) without "cause and effect (consequence)"??
COMMENT: The term "free will" means a will without a cause. The term "free choice" means a choice that has no cause. Now then, Does man have a will that has no cause behind it? NO. Does God make choices that have no cause? We need to be very careful when we try to use words applied to humanity as though they equally apply to God. Choice can mean to pick from a number of possibilities. In this usage, God does not make choices. God knows and always persues the ONLY WISE COURSE or action. So if we mean by choice, Selecting that which we prefer, then God does in that sense make a choice, since He always does what He prefers to do. But these things do not come from nowhere, nor do they come from an outside or higher power. There is no outside higher power than God. But The Scriptures do tell us by what method or means God does what He does:
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the PURPOSE of Him [God] Who works all things after THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).
There is your answers.
If the answer "Yes", then why does this answer not also apply to people, since we are in the image of God?
COMMENT: We are NOT as yet "in the image of God." (Rom. 8:29).
If the answer is "No"", then God is not sovereign --- since even He does not have "Free Will" and is subject to "Cause and Effect"
COMMENT: This statement is nonsense.
God be with you,
Ray
What sayest thou?
Please Show real Example(s) for your answer.
Peace,
Michael
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5146.msg40669.html#msg40669 ---
Dear Dean: Regarding the Forum's question as to whether God has a free will or not:
"Free will" is not a topic of Scripture. Humanity absolutely does not have a free will/free choice disposition. All thoughts and actions have a cause. God, however, is the First Cause. God answers to no one and no one dictates or causes God to think or do anything--all Protestant and Catholic prayers to the contrary included. However, we are told in the Scriptures who "God cannot lie," for example or why God never "changes his mind." This is a governing factor to God's disposition, but it is not an outside force. Here is how God thinks and operates everything in the universe:
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [operates] ALL THINGS AFTER THE C-O-U-N-S-E-L OF H-I-S O-W-N W-I-L-L" (Eph. 1:11).
God be with you,
Ray
John from Kentucky:
Moving on down the road where He directs me.
G. Driggs:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on July 01, 2011, 01:09:56 PM ---
You are correct in that Ray wrote in his LOF articles about "the myth of free will exposed". However, in my reading of Ray's articles, I understood him to be dismissing mankind's belief that man has free will. I do not see where Ray discusses that God the Father does not have free will. Can you show me where Ray says God the Father does not have free will in any of Ray's writings?
On the other hand, Ray did have a February 2008 bible study called "Foundational Truths". There is a section called "God Does Not Lie". Ray discussed Titus 1:2 that says "...God, that cannot lie" per the King James version. Ray brought out that the Concordant version says, "...God, Who does not lie.
Ray said that it is not that God cannot lie, but that He does not lie. There is a difference between can not and does not. If God cannot lie, then it would seem He does not have free will. On the other hand, if God does not lie, then it would seem He does have a free will (ie. God could lie if He wanted to, but He has chosen not to lie----Which is God's free choice, His free will, not under the control or influence of anything but Himself.
John
--- End quote ---
This excerpt might help explain why God does not lie. Although Ray does not specifically say God does not have a free will, it really seems Ray is saying in other words that God does not have a free will.
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Aug. 2008 Bible study FREE WILL
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12957.0.html
Now let me ask the question, if we don’t have a freedom to do anything we want, nothing causes us, forces us, makes us, influences us, we are totally free from all that. What about God, is God free to do anything? [Comment: He never changes.] Yeah, but is He free to change? [He’s God He can do anything He wants.] [He is subject to the council of His own will.] There you go Harry. He can do anything He wants like Denny says, but He doesn’t want! Why doesn’t He want? Well He just freely decided that He doesn’t want? No, that’s not what the Bible says. We want to stick with the Scripture and believe the Scripture, so let’s look at the Scripture and believe what the Scripture say.
ALL UNDER LAW
You all know that the Bible says God cannot lie. Right?
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie…
If He has freedom of will, then He can lie. Am I right? If His will is FREE, there is no such thing as He cannot lie. Well if He cannot lie, why can’t He lie? Has someone told Him He can’t lie?
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him (God) who works all things after the counsel of His own will:
I don’t suppose you would be too far off base if you were to say, He works out all things after the LAW of His on will. Because the council of God is law. It’s like in ‘The King and I,’ so let it be written, so let it be done. That‘s the law baby.
So is God free to lie? NO! No He is not. Because He has determined by the counsel of His own will that He will not and can not lie. [/b]
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G.Driggs
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