"Soul Sleep"

[lilitalienboi16]

More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".

While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor.   1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.

If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?

Thank you very much. God bless you.

I'm not exactly sure what your looking for Ian.
You've gotten really good answers!
What is it about those verses that contradict Psalms 6:5??

Antaiwan

If the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor is to be taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5. I had not seen the email that Ray wrote regarding it.

I write in private, so I cannot really get my thoughts down on "paper" before being interrupted (by someone or some thing).

I apologize for not being very coherent. It is hard to clarify what I am trying to say because I am unable to articulate my thoughts. This is due to what I mentioned above.

I took a look at the entire chapter of Samuel to see what I could out of it. I personally don't see it as anything contradicting to the fact that when you are dead, you're dead. I can't say for certain what saul saw, but I want to lean on the idea that He was seeing a vision of sorts. That it wasn't LITERALLY happening. A vision that God caused him to have, though we do see a conversation between saul and the dead samual, I do believe it was just a vision he was having when he visited this woman.

As far as Isaiah is concerned; I really can't see AT ALL what your confusion is or how this contradicts what is said in Psalms6:5.

Hell = Hades = The unseen, the unpercievable = The grave. Everyone goes to "hell" one day or another.

Lastly, with Job, again.. not really sure where the confusion lies. Job is talking about a FUTURE time, notice he uses the words "SHALL (meaning future) and "LATTER DAYS" (meaning future.)

Thats all I have for now... Just think carefully, remember God doesn't contradict Himself and neither do His Words.

Hope this helps!

God bless,

Alex

[Ian]

More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".

While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor.   1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.

If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?

Thank you very much. God bless you.

I'm not exactly sure what your looking for Ian.
You've gotten really good answers!
What is it about those verses that contradict Psalms 6:5??

Antaiwan

If the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor is to be taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5. I had not seen the email that Ray wrote regarding it.

I write in private, so I cannot really get my thoughts down on "paper" before being interrupted (by someone or some thing).

I apologize for not being very coherent. It is hard to clarify what I am trying to say because I am unable to articulate my thoughts. This is due to what I mentioned above.

I took a look at the entire chapter of Samuel to see what I could out of it. I personally don't see it as anything contradicting to the fact that when you are dead, you're dead. I can't say for certain what saul saw, but I want to lean on the idea that He was seeing a vision of sorts. That it wasn't LITERALLY happening. A vision that God caused him to have, though we do see a conversation between saul and the dead samual, I do believe it was just a vision he was having when he visited this woman.

As far as Isaiah is concerned; I really can't see AT ALL what your confusion is or how this contradicts what is said in Psalms6:5.

Hell = Hades = The unseen, the unpercievable = The grave. Everyone goes to "hell" one day or another.

Lastly, with Job, again.. not really sure where the confusion lies. Job is talking about a FUTURE time, notice he uses the words "SHALL (meaning future) and "LATTER DAYS" (meaning future.)

Thats all I have for now... Just think carefully, remember God doesn't contradict Himself and neither do His Words.

Hope this helps!

God bless,

Alex

I apologize, Alex.

My confusion is due to that site I posted. Since I cannot post the link to the site, I will write a quotation.

Both the Old and New Testaments give clear indication that there is,
             indeed, a life after death.

              1.  Many Old Testament scriptures make reference to a life after death.

                        Job 19:25-27  "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand
                                at the latter day upon the earth; and though after my skin worms destroy this
                                body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: whom I shall see for myself, and mine
                                eyes shall behold, and not another..."

                        Psalms 16:9, 10  "... my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave
                                my soul in hell..."

                        Isaiah 5:14, 15  "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth
                                without measure; and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that
                                rejoiceth, shall descend into it. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the
                                mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled."

                        Isaiah 14:9  "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming;
                                it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth..."  

 B.  The reason there is no knowledge, wisdom, worship, or praise in
            the grave (see Psalms 6:5; 88:10-12; 115:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes
            9:5, 10; Isaiah 38:18 – scriptures used by promoters of the
            "soul-sleep" doctrine) is that the intelligence of man is not in the
            body, which, in the grave returns to dust (Ecclesiastes 3:20) – but
            in the spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11), which returns to God (Ecclesiastes
            3:21; 12:7).

I don't believe what she had written; I feel that she had forced her theology on the text.

Forgive me for being confused.

[Kat]

Hi Ian,

This thing about death and the grave is confusing when you try to rectify it with all of the teaching out there that the body dies, but the spirit lives on.

Job 19:25  For I know that my Redeemer liveth...

This is true Christ is now "a High Priest, who has sat down on the right of the throne of the Majesty in Heaven" (Heb. 8:1).

v. 25 ...and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth;

This is true as it says in Zec 14:1 "Behold, the day of Jehovah comes..." v. 4  "And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives." This has not happen yet, it "comes." His return is what will bring about the end of this age and the beginning of His rule on earth.

Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and act wisely, and shall do judgment and justice in the earth.

Job 19:26  and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

This is true Job died, but he believed there would be a resurrection of the dead, when his 'Redeemer" returns and he will once again be flesh and blood.

v. 27  whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another..."

Yes when God resurrects people they will have their human spirit (that has been in safe keeping with God, Ecc 12:7) returned to them. As Job also knew we would have our memory and same personality and character that we had before returned to us.

Psalms 16:9  "... my flesh also shall rest in hope.
v. 10  For You wilt not leave my soul in hell..."

Christ spoke of death as sleep, so it is like the body is at rest until the resurrection. Concordant Version has a better translation of verse 10.

Psalms 16:10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen...

Our only hope is for resurrection and Job says that is what he thought/hoped for before died, that God would not leave him dead in the grave.

Isaiah 5:14, 15  "Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure; and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled."

Yes hell/hades/unseen/grave is enlarging, there is more going to the grave every day. It is quite humbling to know that you are going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop that. But I guess a lot (the great majority) of people don't believe that at all. They think that just the body dies, but the spirit lives on some place else and they have all these verses about 'hell' to prove it... "strong delusion" (2Thes 2:11). The spirit goes back to God to keep until resurrection.

Isaiah 14:9  "Hell from beneath is moved for Thee to meet Thee at Thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for Thee, even all the chief ones of the earth..." 

This verse speaks of Christ return and the resurrection of the dead spoken of in Rev. 20.

Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it...
v, 13  And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell (hades/unseen/grave) delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.

When you come to understand the basics of the truth then all of the Scriptures fit together nicely in what they teach.

Psa 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth... (CLV)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[CEO]

Kat

Once you get it then it is easy to get it ?

Charles O

[Duane]

Ian...I had a million pieces and bits of the Church of Babylon floating around my head and I kept reading and reading then all of a sudden it all fell in place.  This will happen to you.
One word of advice that i found unbelievably helpful is when some (like Kat) refers you to one of Ray's articles, be SURE to read it because it keeps the moderators from having to re-write what has already been written.

[Ian]

Ian...I had a million pieces and bits of the Church of Babylon floating around my head and I kept reading and reading then all of a sudden it all fell in place.  This will happen to you.
One word of advice that i found unbelievably helpful is when some (like Kat) refers you to one of Ray's articles, be SURE to read it because it keeps the moderators from having to re-write what has already been written.

I hope that happens to me as well...
I have read almost every single article Ray has written...especially the ones regarding Sheol. In fact, while reading Part B tonight, I found another verse that stumped me.

"The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [Heb: sheol] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword" (Ezek. 32:21)."

Thank you all again. Sorry for being foolish.

[aqrinc]

Ian, keep on asking questions, now ask within, because you need no one to teach you what you already know. When you ask the right questions, the answers will be there waiting for you to learn them.

Peace Love Bro,

George.

[Kat]

Hi Ian,

Here is an email that should help with the verse in Ezekial and below that is from the Lake of Fire series 'Sheol Translated Hell,' that should give you help with other places hell is mentioned.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3121.0.html ---------

   Some things can be "explained," but may not be able to be "proved." I can tell you that all of these Scriptures are in "figurative" rather than "literal" language, but that does not means that you will believe me, anymore than when I showed "plucking out one's eye or cutting of one's hand" in accordance with Christ's admonition concerning offensive sins, was believed by those who read it. I received comments that these admonitions were indeed LITERAL, even though they conceded that we are not to LITERALLY pluck out our physical eyes, etc.
   
   How, for example does "pomp" go to the grave (or sheol)? It is, of course, FIGURATIVE. If these verses in figurative language are literal, then we must concede that such verses as Gen. 4:10 are literal:  "...the VOICE of your brother's BLOOD cries unto Me from the ground."  Someone might actually claim that blood is immortal, and although spilled on the ground, and completely dried up, nonetheless, is still alive and......AND POSSESSES VOCAL CORDS AND CAN SPEAK!!
   

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-B.html -----------------------------

In all the "Torah"—the Law, that is all the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, the word "hell" appears but once in the King James Bible. Here it is:

1. "For a fire is kindled in mine anger and shall burn unto the lowest hell [Heb: sheol], and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains" (Deut. 32:22).

Well, at last. There it is, "fire" is found with the word sheol, so surely now we have found Scriptural proof that sheol sometimes does mean the Christian "hell of eternal torture in fire," right? WRONG! This verse says nothing of burning dead people in sheol with fire.

The whole chapter is a "Song of Moses" (See verse 1). God prophesies through Moses' Song, His anger over Israel's lack of faith and the fact that they will turn to other gods, and for this God will punish them. He will not, however, torture them in an eternal fire of a Christian hell. Here is what God will do to them:

"For the Lord shall judge His people... I KILL, and I make ALIVE: I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand" (Deut. 32:36a & 39).

Notice that according to God Himself, the only way that someone He "kills" can ever live again is if God also "makes alive" again. Do Christians believe that dead people must be made alive again? No, of course not. They don't believe that dead people are even dead, so why would God ever have to "make alive" again? It is not Scientifically, Physiologically, or Scripturally possible to physically DIE and yet be alive.
v
2. The sorrows of hell [Heb: sheol] compassed [surrounded] me about: the snares of death prevented [confronted] me" (II Sam. 22:6).

Does anyone believe that David just narrowly escaped the tortures of an eternal hell of pain in literal fire? No? I don't either. But I can clearly see how he felt death and the grave closing in on him when his enemies were out to kill him.

3. It [the wisdom and secrets of God] is as high as heaven; what can you do? Deeper than hell [Heb: sheol] ; what can you know" (Job 11:08).

This is poetic language and has nothing to do with a place of torture in fire.

4. Hell [Heb: sheol] is naked before him, and destruction has no covering" (Job 26:6).

5. The wicked shall be turned [Heb: shub] into hell [Heb: sheol], and all the nations that forget God" (Psalm 9:17).

I heard this verse quoted on TV just this past Sunday. Boy oh boy this one seems pretty hard to side step, isn't it? "The wicked shall be turned into hell." Well, maybe not. The translators have tried to do their tricky little deceitfulness once more. You see, the word translated "turned" is the Hebrew word shub and it means "to RETURN," (not, "turn" or "turned"), but REturn or REturned. In fact this word is translated "return" or "returned" almost 100% of the approximately 450 times it is used. Notice how other versions correct this same verse:

"The lawless shall RETURN [Heb: shub] to hades, All nations forgetful of God" (Psalm 9:17, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).

"The nations shall be TURNED BACK unto sheol, All nations that are forgetful of God" (Psalm 9:17, The New American Bible).

"The wicked do TURN BACK to sheol, All nations forgetting God" (Psalm 9:17, Young's Literal Translation).

"The wicked shall RETURN [Heb: shub] to the unseen, all nations forgetful of God" (Psalm 9:17 Concordant Literal Old Testament).

Actually "return" is a better translation than "turn back," but at least we can see that other translators see and use the proper meaning of shub, which of course, The King James did not.

The Bible likens death to a "Return." The soul RETURNS to sheol/hades—the UNSEEN. The spirit RETURNS to God who gave it. And the body RETURNS to the dust of the ground from whence it came. And so likewise, the wicked nations will be RETURNED to sheol—the grave, sheol, the unseen, DEATH.

If "sheol" is a Christian hell of torture in fire, then they would also have to conclude that these nations also CAME FROM an eternity of suffering in fire, and they are not RETURNING to that same place. Anyone see a problem with such unscriptural nonsense?

6. "For you will not leave my soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption" (Psalm 16:10).

Although this is a prophecy concerning the Lord, it is nonetheless, the words of David concerning himself and his own salvation from sheol. Notice that David concedes that he (his soul, the conscious, sentient self) will die and go to sheol. But David's prayer is that God, "will not LEAVE my soul in sheol." Everyone's soul goes to sheol at death—both the sinners and the saints.

7. "The sorrows of hell [Heb: sheol] compassed me about: the snares of death prevented [confronted] me" (Psalm 18:5).

David is not in sheol, but rather is sorrowful in just contemplating death.

8. "Let DEATH seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell [Heb: sheol]: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them" (Psalm 55:15).

Notice that that one must be "dead" in order to go to sheol.

9. "For great is Thy mercy toward me: and you have delivered my soul from the lowest [depth of] hell [Heb: sheol]" (Psalm 86:13).

10. "The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell [Hb: sheol] got hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow" (Ps. 116:3).

11. "If I ascend up into heaven, You are there: if I make my bed in hell [Heb: sheol], behold, You are there" (Psalm 139:08).

12. "Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell [Heb: sheol]" (Prov. 5:5).

Seems pretty clear that feet and steps are one, and they go to one place—death and hell [sheol] are all one.

13. "Her house is the way to hell [Heb: sheol], going down to the chambers of death" (Prov. 7:27).

Once more, her house with its chambers, go down to hell/sheol and death.

14. "But he knows not that the DEAD are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell [Heb: sheol]" (Prov. 9:18).

Hell/sheol contains DEAD PEOPLE, not living souls!

15. "Hell [Heb: sheol] and destruction are before the Lord: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?" (Prov. 15:11).

16. "The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart [keep away] from hell [Heb: sheol] beneath" (Prov. 15:24).

17. "You shall beat him with the rod, and shall deliver his soul from hell [Heb: sheol]" (Prov. 23:14).

18. Hell [Heb: sheol] and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied" (Prov. 27:20).

19. "Therefore hell [Heb: sheol] has enlarged herself, and opened her mouth with out measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoices, shall descend into it" (Isa. 5:14).

20. Hell [Heb: sheol] from beneath is moved for you to meet you at the coming; it stirs up the dead for you, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations" (Isa. 14:9).

21. "Yet you shall be brought down to hell [Heb: sheol] to the sides of the pit" (Isa. 14:15).

22. "Because you have said, We have made a covenant with DEATH, and with hell [Heb: sheol] are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves" (Isa. 28:15).

23. "And your covenant with DEATH shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell [Heb: sheol] shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then you shall be trodden down by it" (Isa. 28:18).

Notice in both verses 15 and 18 of Isa. 28 that "death and hell" keep company together. Another major proof that those in sheol are DEAD, not tortured in fire. Sheol is associated with DEATH, not life.

24. "And you went to the king with ointment, and did increase your perfumes, and did send your messengers far off, and did debase yourself even unto hell [Heb: sheol]" (Isa. 57:9).

25. "I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall; when I cast him down to hell [Heb: sheol] with them that descend into the pit and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth" (Ezek. 31:16).

26. "They also went down into hell [Heb: sheol] with him unto them that be slain with the sword: and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen" (Ezek. 31:17).

27. "The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [Heb: sheol] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword" (Ezek. 32:21).

28. "And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell [Heb: sheol] with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, through they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living" (Ezk. 32:27).

29. "Though they dig into hell [Heb: sheol], thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down" (Amos 9:2).

30. "And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and He heard me; out of the BELLY of hell [Heb: sheol] cried I, and You heard my voice" (Jonah 2:2).

Imagine that! The belly of a FISH is also the "belly of hell." But for sure there was no literal fire inside that fish torturing Jonah.

31. "Yea also, because he transgresses by wine, he is a proud man, neither keeps at home, who enlarges his desire as hell [Heb: sheol] , and is as DEATH, and cannot be satisfied, but gathers unto him all nations, and heaps unto him all people" (Hab. 2:5).

Again we see death and hell keeping company. There is NO CONSCIOUSNESS in sheol / hades / grave / death. Jonah only figuratively (symbolically) cried out from "the belly of hell/sheol." Jonah was not literally in sheol, as he had not died, although he was very close to it. David in the same way, cried out in his agony as though he had already been consumed with death, although he had not.

We have now quoted every Scripture from the Hebrew Old Testament which contains the word sheol. 3 times as "pit," 31 times "grave," and 31 times "hell." Not once did we read of "PUNISHMENT," "TORTURE IN FIRE," or a place of "EVERLASTING" anything. We have clearly seen that both the righteous and the unrighteous go to this same condition and place called sheol. It is spoken of literally, figuratively, symbolically, and poetically.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Marky Mark]

Ian, keep on asking questions, now ask within, because you need no one to teach you what you already know. When you ask the right questions, the answers will be there waiting for you to learn them.

Peace Love Bro,

George.

George,

What are the right questions as opposed to the wrong questions that we should be asking within ourselves? To rely on ones self for Spiritual enlightenment is giving unto the doctrines of men. Jesus,the One true teacher, had to teach His apostles Gods Truth because they could not understand otherwise.

Without teachers of the Word of God where would any one that has been given the Spirit of Truth have received such understanding? We are only one part of a body and that body needs all of the sum of its parts to function as a whole.We need the Spirit to send teachers in order to receive His message of Truth. Scripture certainly verifies that condition.


Rev 19:10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1Co 12:28  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1Co 14:19  Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue

1Ti 1:3  As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

1Co 4:17  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.

. 1Ti 3:2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

2Ti 2:2  And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2Ti 2:24  And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,


I believe we all at some point in our walk have come to realize the importance of the following verse.


Act 8:27  And he [Philip] arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 8:28  Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Act 8:29  Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 8:30  And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31  And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Act 8:35  Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.


When one looks within ones self for the Truth of the Spirit, you better be ready to try the spirits that are lurking about...

1Jn 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.



Peace...Mark

[Joel]

Most Churches around the world that I know of, preach that when a believer or an unbeliever die they instantly go to their ETERNAL destination.
But as Ray has shown time and time again, this belief flies in the face of sound doctrine.
They also aren't really looking for, and watching for Jesus to return, seeing as how that they will be with him in an instant when they die.
Jesus was pretty clear when he explained to his disciples in John 14:1-4
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I WILL COME AGAIN, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Clearly the SECOND coming, that Paul speaks of in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Joel

[Duane]

Speaking of hell, did you ever hear a preacher say that Jesus had the final say.  When Jesus hung on the cross he looked at his accusers and tormentors and said "Father FORGIVE them for they know not what they do."  But in the back of Jesus's mind He was thinking "Yeah, you got me now, BUT someday I will get you back by torturing you for ever and ever and ever and ever in hell!
So there!!!!

[Revilonivek]

Actually Jews don't believe in an eternal hell. They believe in temporary hell,  a spiritual adjustment place. for a time up to 12 months max. Don't believe me? Look it up. Christianity believes in an eternal hell. It's crazy what they believe. It's Sad how they keep the people from knowing the true love of God.