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[DougE6]

I think here is a case where we need to keep in mind the greater, however. What is the greater? LOVE.  Co 13:8  Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.  That verse is very powerful and almost shocking in its strength. It fits in very well with a preceding verse.... 1Co 13:2  And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Clearly, all this knowledge we are gaining, is suboordinate to LOVE. Incredibly suboordinate. Yet it is very necessary to gain it, this knowlege. Otherwise God would not of done all this, gone through all this effort and time. And the very great cost, both to Him and to us.

So, I think the answer is....the knowledge is necessary to KNOW LOVE in its fullness! But once love is fully known, it is so suboordinate as to be of no consequence, in comparison!  I think to know Love in its fullness, we have to understand forgiveness, grace, mercy, courage, truth, sacrifice, and all these other components of love. And this understanding takes wrestling with evil.  But the greatest by far is LOVE itself. That is why we are not too spend too much time and energy on merely gaining knowledge that we have, but how much we are acting in love towards our fellow human beings.

[onelovedread]

I agree, Doug. Yesterday I was thinking that this forum represents the only avenue of fellowship for many who have "come out of her and be ye separate" from the babylonian church system. Sometimes there are some gems among the posts that inspire and spur us to go deeper. However, many times it seems to me that some are trying to score points for self glory, while others ask questions that do not appear to be helpful for spiritual growth. If we could be mindful of those like me who may not be so established and who are struggling to keep up, I think it would be helpful. On Ray's website, he issues an invitation to this forum. Let's always strive to make sure that our General Discussions are useful and helpful and that they point towards the Father and His Son. Ok I'll shut up now.

[John from Kentucky]

Love toward fellow human beings is not the most important thing.  It is the 2nd commandment: You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself.

The 1st and primary commandment is to love God with your whole heart, mind, soul, and being.  The scriptures say to love God you need to keep His commandments.  Love towards God is obedience.  To know God's commandments you need knowledge of what they are.  So it all seems to go in a circle.  Knowledge---Commandments---Obedience---- equals Love.  Everything is One.  It all starts and ends with God.

God has knowledge of good and evil.  So must we.  That is why God has created us as is.  To know good and evil we must experience it (eat the fruit of the tree).

[Revilonivek]

Marques-

Sorry if I am confusing you with my intentions.

Believe me, I take all responses into consideration. I do. They all have helped me.   There are walls  already in my heart that I have to work at too.

I am hearing impaired. What I have is profound hearing loss in both ears. I learn by asking questions. I learn with observation of things around me.  I learn through kinetic energy, I learn with my hands.  I am very perceptive. I learn from circumstances. I learn from feedback. I don't learn by just reading without feedback. I apologize for that, Marques.

I feel you all are my family. I keep visiting  bible-truths forum since 2006. It's the drive that God puts in me. I don't know why.  I just don't learn from reading alone. You direct me to papers all the time and say, to read it and the rest will take care of it.   It is not how I learn. I learn through feedback, discussions, etc. It is the way I am. My intention is  to learn.. not fight against you. I may be stubborn at times, but don't you see.. I keep coming back. God hasn't given up on me. It is like he is saying, you can't leave yet. 

So please bear with me. You may think, oh no, not another newbie to deal with and shoot them down. but I ask you this... Please have patience with me, as God has patience for me. He has directed me to your forum for many years, so there must be a good reason for this.

So, please have alot of patience with me.


Denise

[acomplishedartis]

When an good artist starts out with his painting he usually already have an idea of how is it going to end, and every brush he gives is good. Sometimes while working on a painting somebody can come and say that it is ugly an imperfect because they think is finished, when in reality the artist is just starting out.
And if the artist is the best artist of the Cosmos, His final work will be perfect and every brushing that He is doing is very good for it's final purpose ....After all, WE are His beautiful workmanship...

[Revilonivek]

Coming to these room in the forum makes me feel little. So many good responses from brothers that take online relations as serious as they really are.

I will just add one paragraph, in case it helps building somehow,

When an good artist starts out with his painting he usually already have an idea of how is it going to end, and every brush he gives is good. Sometimes while working on a painting somebody can come and say that it is ugly an imperfect because they think is finished, when in reality the artist is just starting out.
And if the artist is the best artist of the Cosmos, His final work will be perfect and every brushing that He is doing is very good for it's final purpose ....After all, WE are His beautiful workmanship...




Deniss, you seem to have good speech and be trying to be honest with your questions, one thing I don't get is how someone can be reading since 2006 and still be asking about the supposedly ''perfect'' Adam and Eve issue, that is like one of the first questions that gets out when someone start reading or even talking about these truths. Perhaps, maybe lately somebody have come to you with these questions and you just wanted to make sure and learn how to respond to others more concrete...

Hey Moises,

I have been visiting since 2006 but not constantly enough. For the most part, I come back to visit alot though. I am known as Lacey23 if anyone remembers the last time I was here years ago.  I have been going through alot of things, it's changing me and I've learned alot. That's for sure.  As for word usage, sometime I confuse meanings of  perfect with good. Talking to people like you, helps me realize it does make a huge difference. sometimes talking things out, discussing, etc, helps us realize more things than just reading alone. Thoughts are powerful tool. It makes us who we are.

God bless,

Denise

[Kat]

Here is a bit more I found concerning Adam and Eve to add to this discussion.


http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html ---------------

Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were to weak to resist the temptation to sin.

It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.
v
Heb. 5:8-9  Though He [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED. And being MADE perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him.

Jesus was, MADE perfect through suffering, LEARNED obedience through suffering, and was MADE perfect, but theologians would have us believe that Adam and Eve were ALREADY PERFECT FROM THEIR CREATION AND DIDN’T NEED TO SUFFER ANYTHING!! 

Humans cannot be spiritually perfected instantaneously, or by magic. Even the Son of God was required to be perfected [made spiritually mature] through "suffering."  This requires time and circumstances--God, therefore, creates time and circumstances.

God did not overlook the fact that humans require clothing. God created Adam and Eve naked and then left them naked in the Garden. Why didn’t God just leave them naked after they sinned? Because nakedness is a parable of our SPIRITUAL CONDITION. Adam and Eve thought that they were okay by their own powers. They were NOT. They were in the very same spiritual condition as the Church of Laodicea (which is a picture of the whole Church today, except for a precious few):

"Because you say that I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing [Did not Adam and Eve feel that they were rich and in need of nothing?]; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and NAKED" (Rev. 3:17).
v
And so, if you or I or any other human who has ever lived or ever will live (save Jesus) would have the same opportunity as Adam and Eve had in the garden, we too, every one of us, would have also sinned just as they did. Any person who would argue otherwise is either deceived or a liar. Adam and Eve were not weaker than most people who have ever lived. If anything, they were stronger, but not strong enough to resist the temptation of sin. This garden scene is not a drama over whether or not free will, will, or will not make the right choice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

Here is a bit more I found concerning Adam and Eve to add to this discussion.


http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html ---------------

Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were to weak to resist the temptation to sin.

It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.
v
Heb. 5:8-9  Though He [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He SUFFERED. And being MADE perfect, He became the Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him.

Jesus was, MADE perfect through suffering, LEARNED obedience through suffering, and was MADE perfect, but theologians would have us believe that Adam and Eve were ALREADY PERFECT FROM THEIR CREATION AND DIDN’T NEED TO SUFFER ANYTHING!! 

Humans cannot be spiritually perfected instantaneously, or by magic. Even the Son of God was required to be perfected [made spiritually mature] through "suffering."  This requires time and circumstances--God, therefore, creates time and circumstances.

God did not overlook the fact that humans require clothing. God created Adam and Eve naked and then left them naked in the Garden. Why didn’t God just leave them naked after they sinned? Because nakedness is a parable of our SPIRITUAL CONDITION. Adam and Eve thought that they were okay by their own powers. They were NOT. They were in the very same spiritual condition as the Church of Laodicea (which is a picture of the whole Church today, except for a precious few):

"Because you say that I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing [Did not Adam and Eve feel that they were rich and in need of nothing?]; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and NAKED" (Rev. 3:17).
v
And so, if you or I or any other human who has ever lived or ever will live (save Jesus) would have the same opportunity as Adam and Eve had in the garden, we too, every one of us, would have also sinned just as they did. Any person who would argue otherwise is either deceived or a liar. Adam and Eve were not weaker than most people who have ever lived. If anything, they were stronger, but not strong enough to resist the temptation of sin. This garden scene is not a drama over whether or not free will, will, or will not make the right choice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Aren't those amazing thoughts?  Jesus was made perfect.  Must mean He wasn't perfect to start with.  Jesus learned obedience through suffering.  Must mean He didn't know everything to begin with.  He had to experience suffering to learn obedience.  So must we.

These thoughts will get you thrown out of just about every Christian church that I'm aware of.

[Craig]

hese thoughts will get you thrown out of just about every Christian church that I'm aware of.

So true.  Why is that so hard for them to grasp?  It is pretty plain that God is creating us in His image to be His children.  Christ is the first born of creation and as the son of the Father he has been perfected.  Now God is creating and perfecting more children, we know we are perfected through suffering, pain and experience.  Why is it such a leap to conclude Jesus was perfected the same way?  Don't you think God knows what He is doing and Christ was the example for us all?

Craig

[Duane]

I believe that we will remember life on earth because we will be held accountable for how we lived it. (2) because the rememberence enables us to have grounds for praising God for guiding us thru it--and His many protections of us  (3) some that experience the Lake of Fire will experience "deep shame and remorse" as part of their cleansing--according to Ray's articles.  If they can't remember, it would be hard to be ashamed/remorseful.  (Thank you, Kat--I learned it from your posts.)
If "lovedoneread" was referring to ME in "seeking vain glory and recognition" for my evangelizing, I suppose you are partially RIGHT but I get so exuberant about meeting people and sharing the TRUTH (and this web-site) that I have to rejoice by SHARING, and then hope people can rejoice WITH me, or atleast be ENCOURAGED to speak out for God's glory themselves.  God will judge me fairly, as he knows my heart.  All of
you are my family so I share my joys with you--and I chose the TESTIMONIAL site to post it as it was a testimony as to God's provision for my transportation against all odds.  Enufff said.

[indianabob]

It's O. K. Duane. You're young yet and your spiritual family will be very patient with you as we learn together.

Ole Indiana Bob

[John from Kentucky]

hese thoughts will get you thrown out of just about every Christian church that I'm aware of.

So true.  Why is that so hard for them to grasp?  It is pretty plain that God is creating us in His image to be His children.  Christ is the first born of creation and as the son of the Father he has been perfected.  Now God is creating and perfecting more children, we know we are perfected through suffering, pain and experience.  Why is it such a leap to conclude Jesus was perfected the same way?  Don't you think God knows what He is doing and Christ was the example for us all?

Craig

Yes.  Seems fairly straightforward.  Jesus is the blueprint and mold for the 1st of the creation.  Everybody else is patterned after Him.  The Father seems to know what He is doing.

[onelovedread]

No my friend Duane. I wasn't referring to any individual in particular. I was just commenting generally. My point is that we need to post everything we share with the motive of edification of the body of Christ - rather than self-promotion.

[Duane]

I am sorry if my TESTIMONY on the TESTIMONIAL site sounded self-promoting, I was just sharing MY joy at having been able to share God and this web-site with numerous people in numerous places and situations.  If this incourages OTHERS to "preach the gospel in season and out of season" to all who will listen then-- that serves the PURPOSE of my testimonial.  Some have pm'ed me that it was an ENCOURAGEMNT for them to be bolder in sharing the word.  (I intend for God to always be on the "tip of my tongue" replacing HIM with the many conversations I enjoy with strangers about NASCAR and local racing.)
I am not requesting that any B-T member "be patient with my ideas or posts" because I have already instructed the MODERATORS to "bleep" any of my posts that they deemed unworthy/unfit for this web-site.  (They have--thank you)
As for my "young age" PLEASE don't tell AARP or they will cancel my membership!  LOL

[onelovedread]

Good on you, Duane. I wish I had more boldness in proclaiming Christ. As for AARP aren't they a bit pesky?

[Revilonivek]

hese thoughts will get you thrown out of just about every Christian church that I'm aware of.

So true.  Why is that so hard for them to grasp?  It is pretty plain that God is creating us in His image to be His children.  Christ is the first born of creation and as the son of the Father he has been perfected.  Now God is creating and perfecting more children, we know we are perfected through suffering, pain and experience.  Why is it such a leap to conclude Jesus was perfected the same way?  Don't you think God knows what He is doing and Christ was the example for us all?

Craig

Yes.  Seems fairly straightforward.  Jesus is the blueprint and mold for the 1st of the creation.  Everybody else is patterned after Him.  The Father seems to know what He is doing.

Yes, John. I know that to be true. He is exactly the blueprint we need. He has been there once. So, he knows the way.  Easily said than done but yes, We just have to adopt that blueprint into our being.  Jesus told nicodemus in johns that he needs to be lifted up just like Moses in numbers 21 lifted up the snake to save the afflicted. People Will understand one day why it is necessary. We are all in the dark spiritually and looking for that light to lead us out. It will happen.

[John from Kentucky]

hese thoughts will get you thrown out of just about every Christian church that I'm aware of.

So true.  Why is that so hard for them to grasp?  It is pretty plain that God is creating us in His image to be His children.  Christ is the first born of creation and as the son of the Father he has been perfected.  Now God is creating and perfecting more children, we know we are perfected through suffering, pain and experience.  Why is it such a leap to conclude Jesus was perfected the same way?  Don't you think God knows what He is doing and Christ was the example for us all?

Craig

Yes.  Seems fairly straightforward.  Jesus is the blueprint and mold for the 1st of the creation.  Everybody else is patterned after Him.  The Father seems to know what He is doing.

Yes, John. I know that to be true. He is exactly the blueprint we need. He has been there once. So, he knows the way.  Easily said than done but yes, We just have to adopt that blueprint into our being.  Jesus told nicodemus in johns that he needs to be lifted up just like Moses in numbers 21 lifted up the snake to save the afflicted. People Will understand one day why it is necessary. We are all in the dark spiritually and looking for that light to lead us out. It will happen.

Hi Denise,

Just a couple of comments.  You say, "We just have to adopt that blueprint into our being."  We don't do the adopting.  The Father drags us to Jesus without even asking our permission.  (Who does He think He is?  )  Then Jesus and the Father put their imprint on us.  We don't have a say in the matter.  God can be very persuasive, just ask the Apostle Paul.

Also, we are all not in the dark spiritually.  To the extent God decides, some are coming into the light spiritually.

John

[dave]

Very good and interesting post. Thanks

[Revilonivek]

Thanks John! You are right. God does the adopting. Not us doing the adopting. Just pointing out that we will not be complete till we have the same mapping Jesus has. It's a long process, but maybe to God, we are still in the gestation period. Some are born early before others, some are born late but eventually everyone will be born.

[DougE6]

Yes, God does drag us to Jesus. But that dragging process, does not mean we are not involved! Here is an analogy. If you get a bad diagnosis, that you had cancer, would you say "God the Father does everything. Therefore I will  not seek out doctors. I will not seek any medical attention.  I will not change my diet. I will not fight this with all that I know in my limited power and strength If God the Father wants to heal me, or if Jesus wants to, they are very good at what they do. They can heal me. In the meantime, I will sit on this couch and watch TV, until God the Father heals me. After all, He does it all. I don't need to lift a finger"  Is that what you would say? Somehow I don't see Ray acting with that attitude in his approach to His cancer. And God is really doing a great work in keeping him alive. But I bet Ray is really really trying his best. I don't like all this talk that implies we dont need to try our best. Just because God does the work, does not for one second, relieve us of our part to do our best with our whole heart, We are not to sit on the couch, and say "God the Father does it all. I am not going to do a thing. Not a thing to help others, to do good works, to struggle and pray for righteousness. Tp preach to others. To do the works of God" And if I am doing it imperfectly, as I do not see as clearly as Jesus did, while on the earth, God will help me see clearer and clearer, as I strive in all things to obey Him and His word.