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Adam and Eve

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mharrell08:
Oh Lord, not again...  ::)

Please guys, cease and desist with the whole 'do something/only God does something' debate. If I see this debate again, I will promptly remove it.

Revilonivek:
Doug,

 :D Yeah, we may not have "free" will, but we do have a will. God controls the circumstances and gives us reasons on how we should deal with it. We just deal with it either wisely or the foolish way. That is why we are held accountable. Like if you have cancer, how will you react? That is how he gives you reasons and many paths on how to deal with it. You either do it the smart way or foolish way. Sometimes others's mistakes are used to teach others. Like that guy who was protesting for no helmet law but instead he died in an accident due to no helmet. It's all about cause and effect. With cancer,if God gives you a will and a reason to want to live longer. Of course this reason causes you to become active and fight this cancer no matter what it takes. If he wants you to go a certain way. He will not make it easy for you to wiggle out of it. He will keep you in it till he is satisfied with how things are. He has his reasons. It may not be just for you only but for others too. Purpose is to help you and others around you. Maybe God wants to see how we react under various suitations and how well we do it. I have not heard of anyone who has a great desire to live, not fight cancer at all.  That is how God directs our steps. It's cool. If you have cancer, will you do something or none at all. Of course you will fight. It's in our nature to want to live. Maybe the suffering itself is what it takes for people to grow closer to God and others than no suffering at all. 

 

Kat:

With God sovereign there is absolutely no wiggle room what so ever. God knows exactly what will happen down to the least detail. What is going on in our living out this life is not for God's benefit to see what we might do. It is always for our benefit, what happens is for our experience.

True we do have a will, but it's always caused to do whatever we do and the ultimate cause is God, because He has already planned it all out. Now of course we are involved, the causes lead us to do what we do willingly and voluntarily. Because we have a heart that is "exceedingly weak" it takes just a nudge (this world is fulled with things that nudge us in the wrong direction) for us to will and ultimately think, say or do sin.

all of us have to form a dark backdrop in this world, all of us have been deceived and went the way of the world.

Titus 3:3  For we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, slaving for various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

It's the way of this world that we will experience this evil and with our exceedingly weak heart we are quite ready to oblige. That's why we are accountable.

This is from 'The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed' 15 - Part B.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html ---------------

The Scriptures have already concluded that man’s will is not free to do that which it cannot do. Yet should God intervene and cause this same person to repent and turn to God in obedience, how can this same person take credit for repenting and turning to God, seeing that it was ALL OF GOD? Yes, the human mind and will can will and can choose to obey God, but only when God causes it to do so.

Did Jesus obey His God and Father, without a cause?

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, [truly, truly—what Jesus is about to say is the Gospel Truth!] I say unto you, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF…" (John 5:19).

"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"

Can we obey our Lord Jesus Christ, without a cause?

"I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).

"WITHOUT ME YE [‘ye’ means ‘ALL of you’] CAN DO NOTHING"

I repeat:

"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"

"WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING"
v
God made the lemons and God changed the lemons into lemonade.

God is the Potter and we are the clay. God first made the clay in His hands "marred/ruined"—LEMONS, before "…He made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it"—LEMONADE (Jer. 18:4).

Therefore, "For as in Adam ALL DIE [the marred, ruined clay—lemons] even so in Christ shall ALL [it’s the same ‘all’ as ‘in Adam’—it’s the SAME CLAY {Adam means ‘clay’}--lemons] BE MADE ALIVE [‘another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it’—LEMONADE]."

It is God Who makes both the lemons and the lemonade. God is in control of His creation from beginning to end:

"Having made known unto us the mystery of His will [God’s will is still a mystery to the world of Christendom], according to His good pleasure [‘For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure’—Phil. 2:13] which He has purposed in Himself [not in man’s fabled ‘free will’]: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE, ALL things in Christ, both which are IN HEAVEN, and which are ON EARTH [that’s ALL the heavenly host and ALL humanity that has ever lived]; even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance [in this age and this lifetime, ahead of the rest which must go through judgment first], being predestined according to the purpose of Him [not by the ‘maybe yes/maybe no’ uncertain shaky possibility of man’s supposed free will] Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9-11).

It is GOD Who does the working of the clay. The clay does not determine its own destiny, that is the POTTER’S job:

"Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [we, the clay] say to Him that formed it [God, the Potter], Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter power over the clay [and the clay’s powerless imagined ‘free will’], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour [lemonade], and another unto dishonour [lemons]" (Rom. 9:20-21).
v
You won’t find many statements in Scripture more profound than this one. "…you thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD…" This is absolutely not a case of turning the lemons of men into the lemonade of God. It was GOD who made both the lemons and the lemonade.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

DougE6:

If you think, that I think that trying my best means that I do not believe in the total sovereignity of God then I am being completely misunderstood. Of course there is no wiggle room in the total sovereignity of God.  Yet I will not use that doctrine, the total sovereignity of God, as an EXCUSE not to do my best and to strive and struggle and seek out God.  Obviously my zeal to seek Him and serve Him and become more and more holy is OF HIM! But when the traveler is beat up by thieves and left on the road I WILL NOT GO BY AS A PHARISEE AND SAY OH IT IS GODS WILL AND I WONT DO ANYTHING TO HELP> I see so much written about the sovereignity of God, who can possibly disagree?  yet so little on how much we are obeying, how we are being changed, doing good works, preaching the true gospel, giving of our substance...and I think some could use the total sovereignity of God as an EXCUSE not to try, not to work hard.  God Forbid, that I will ever do that. And I will seek the First resurrection with all my heart, and by this I mean to be with Jesus, and I will not have the attitude that "well, it is a lock, God has decided who is to receive that, and it is useless for me to try or to desire such" By the sovereignity of God obviously He has given me this attititude and he has given others their opposite attitude. I just want to point out that one can believe in the total sovereignity of God and still STRIVE to please Him, still give great effort, grow in your desire for holiness, and have all kinds of zeal without letting that doctrine become a stumbling block to actually DOING good works. That in the actuality, Jesus is doing through us anyway.

Revilonivek:

--- Quote from: DougE6 on July 13, 2011, 04:51:16 PM ---
If you think, that I think that trying my best means that I do not believe in the total sovereignity of God then I am being completely misunderstood. Of course there is no wiggle room in the total sovereignity of God.  Yet I will not use that doctrine, the total sovereignity of God, as an EXCUSE not to do my best and to strive and struggle and seek out God.  Obviously my zeal to seek Him and serve Him and become more and more holy is OF HIM! But when the traveler is beat up by thieves and left on the road I WILL NOT GO BY AS A PHARISEE AND SAY OH IT IS GODS WILL AND I WONT DO ANYTHING TO HELP> I see so much written about the sovereignity of God, who can possibly disagree?  yet so little on how much we are obeying, how we are being changed, doing good works, preaching the true gospel, giving of our substance...and I think some could use the total sovereignity of God as an EXCUSE not to try, not to work hard.  God Forbid, that I will ever do that. And I will seek the First resurrection with all my heart, and by this I mean to be with Jesus, and I will not have the attitude that "well, it is a lock, God has decided who is to receive that, and it is useless for me to try or to desire such" By the sovereignity of God obviously He has given me this attititude and he has given others their opposite attitude. I just want to point out that one can believe in the total sovereignity of God and still STRIVE to please Him, still give great effort, grow in your desire for holiness, and have all kinds of zeal without letting that doctrine become a stumbling block to actually DOING good works. That in the actuality, Jesus is doing through us anyway.

--- End quote ---


Exactly. Either you do it or not, it's always for a reason. Never without. We won't do a certain something without a reason.  This is how God directs our steps. He gives us a reason. We will never do a certain thing without a reason. Hard to resist that, right? Hard to wiggle out of that too. If you don't want to do anything and know God is sovereign anyway. God always give you a reason to do something. You will be faced with reasons that challenges your morals. Hard not to do something in that situation, right? We just deal with reason the right way. like Kat said, we are held accountable for our willingness to sin. Hard to resist reason when it is tempting you in the face but hey, it's there for a reason.:)

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