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[jingle52]

Kat, thank you for this tape-script, I do not have the opportunity to listen to the tapes, so this is much appreciated. 

and the lust of the eyes…

Then we have “the lust of the eyes,” which sometimes goes hand in hand with the lust of the flesh. But the lust of the eyes would involve maybe looking at the wrong things. Like, did you know that 99.44% of all men that get Playboy magazine buy it for the editorial material that’s inside, did you know that? See the lust of the eyes will make you become susceptible to the lust of the flesh. You say, ‘oh she looks pretty nice, I wonder if she is married, but I really don’t care.’ Then you go over to talk to her and it’s, ‘hey she came on to me.’

So the lust of the eyes, wanting to watch television 24 hours a day or whatever, the eyes. You know people that are blind, I think sometimes don’t have quite as many lustful problems as those of us who have eyes.

Can I just express how I see this from my humble point of view?

this is something terribly hard to follow fully as:
a) it is impossible to look at something – clothes, shoes, car, house, furniture etc. without committing one or two of these sins. If one “needs” a pair of shoes, it is “normal” that we have a look at colour, style and the beauty of the shoes and less at the practicality of our shoes we need to buy before we make the choice. Isn’t that lust of the eyes? (Some people go overboard and follow fashion paying a ridiculous amount for a pair of brand name shoes)… And so it is with all of the above examples I list….
When buying or choosing something to wear to the office or dinner out with friends, isn’t that the lust of the eyes and pride of life (wanting to look good and acceptable to yourself and to others)?
When one needs to buy a house, most people buy what they can afford and according to their needs, but there are those who buy according to their need to impress others even though they have to pay the mortgage  the rest of their lives (pride of life)… the list just goes on and on…

b)In today’s society, we are all guilty of these sins in one form or another in our everyday lives. We colour our hair, cut it in the latest style, wear makeup, jog to keep fit and slim, go to the gym to keep down the weight and we are just slaves to society’s rules of being acceptable (but as we reach middle-age, these things gradually seem to lose their importance) We also have to conform to office rules on dress codes, people look down on others if they do not have the latest gadgets or know how to navigate their pc’s. Modern society has in some form, killed off any spiritual progress we might feel we are drawn to and shake it off as something we can pay attention to later in life.


We here on BT are most fortunate because we hungered for the truths, searched for it and felt God’s drawing us to His Son, we listened to the call and found Ray’s teachings and are following it on a daily basis. I can see personally the changes this has wrought in me and thank our Lord God everyday for His mercies and His blessings for this quiet niche of learning and fellowship. I spend much time reading and learning here on the Forum and relate and fellowship silently as I still have a long way to go as I am yet carnel!
As John of Kentucky says, line upon line precept upon precept.
Hope I made some sense with my ramblings (please forgive me if they seem out of context with the subject matter touched on by Ray)     ...God’s Blessings.

[mharrell08]

this is something terribly hard to follow fully as:
a) it is impossible to look at something – clothes, shoes, car, house, furniture etc. without committing one or two of these sins. If one “needs” a pair of shoes, it is “normal” that we have a look at colour, style and the beauty of the shoes and less at the practicality of our shoes we need to buy before we make the choice. Isn’t that lust of the eyes? (Some people go overboard and follow fashion paying a ridiculous amount for a pair of brand name shoes)… And so it is with all of the above examples I list….
When buying or choosing something to wear to the office or dinner out with friends, isn’t that the lust of the eyes and pride of life (wanting to look good and acceptable to yourself and to others)?
When one needs to buy a house, most people buy what they can afford and according to their needs, but there are those who buy according to their need to impress others even though they have to pay the mortgage  the rest of their lives (pride of life)… the list just goes on and on…

b)In today’s society, we are all guilty of these sins in one form or another in our everyday lives. We colour our hair, cut it in the latest style, wear makeup, jog to keep fit and slim, go to the gym to keep down the weight and we are just slaves to society’s rules of being acceptable (but as we reach middle-age, these things gradually seem to lose their importance) We also have to conform to office rules on dress codes, people look down on others if they do not have the latest gadgets or know how to navigate their pc’s. Modern society has in some form, killed off any spiritual progress we might feel we are drawn to and shake it off as something we can pay attention to later in life.

Excerpt from 'The Father's Will' transcript (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg114261.html#msg114261):

1John 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

That’s pretty simple, pretty straight forward. It doesn’t say you can’t live in the world or participant with a lot of things that go on in the world and so on… don’t fall in love with it!

- Don’t make it your guiding light!
- Don’t put it before God!
- Don’t put it before doing spiritual things!
- Don’t put it before being obedient!

If you know you are going to do this, that or the other thing in the world, you are going to lose your obedience. If you are talented, you can use your talent, you don’t need to hide your talent, but don’t flaunt it and be egotistical either. Give God thanks for it, but not in a false humility.


The problem isn't wanting something you are looking at. It's wanting it over any and everything else in your life. That's when it becomes a 'lust'.



Hope this helps,

Marques

[Kat]

Hi Jingle,

Yes "lust of the eyes" is a double edged sword. This world was formed to be as it is by our Creator and is filled with things beautiful to behold and He put within us an allure for this beauty. What a wonderful ability to behold the marvels of this creation with the eyes and to be gratified by the loveliness which brings much happiness and joy to us and is a very good thing.

Yet there is the always the flip side of the coin, what can be so wonderful in it's beauty can become something that we crave with so much desire that it becomes an obsession, lust/coveting, this is not good. That does not mean that the eyes are never to be gratified or that it is sinful to find pleasure in beholding objects of real beauty, God did gives us sight for the good it can bring.

As with all things we have to learn how to use this preicous gift properly. So much is gained through sight, I believe it may be the most enjoyed of all the senses. It gives us the means to comprehend the world around us in a way none of the other senses can, like what a butterfly looks like or what the many different colors look like. If you have ever stood at a high level of a mountain an looked over the vista, well it is just magnificent to behold. How do you describe something like that?

Yes with something so wonderful there is a price to pay in that it can be abused and we all have. Hopefully we are learning how to use our sight in a way that pleases God and not for selfish/lustful gratification.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. Imagine if one day we do actually see God, it would without a doubt far exceed anything else we have seen in beauty and glory. What must He be like? I think one day we will know.

[onelovedread]

I hear what you guys are saying, but is it not God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure? And it also says: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" If in fact we are called then is there not some type of "spiritual insurance" against getting caught up in a disproportionate love for the world? To what extent is it our choice and to what extent does God's working in us deter us from falling? Not sure if I am making sense, but if God operates all, then does He not keep us from falling into these traps?

[mharrell08]

Not sure if I am making sense, but if God operates all, then does He not keep us from falling into these traps?

Many are called, Few are chosen...a few God keeps from falling into away, but most He does not. He simply does not stop most of mankind from pursuing their own lusts.

[GaryK]

The problem isn't wanting something you are looking at. It's wanting it over any and everything else in your life. That's when it becomes a 'lust'.



Hope this helps,

Marques

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."       Albert Einstein



Marques:

You're too young to remember an 'E.F. Hutton' moment, but if you weren't you'd know......like I do......that was one of'em.

Meaty morsel.  Lips smacking.

Keep talking, I'm listening.

gk

[jingle52]

Amen to that Kat, wise words indeed. We worship God by appreciating the work of His Hands! And what exquisite workmanship! All things in the heavens above and in the earth below, in the air and in the oceans….
Just an observation - Ray also mentions that Eve, just looking at that fruit, committed all three sins even before she ate it.
It does not say however, that she wanted it over and above everything else...the tempter did his job he was made to do (was she tempted once only or many times over to convince her to eat it)? 

[mharrell08]

It does not say however, that she wanted it over and above everything else...the tempter did his job he was made to do (was she tempted once only or many times over to convince her to eat it)?

It may not say those exact words, but that is exactly what happened. Eve knew the commandment from God but lusted after all the temptations the fruit offered ["the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise' - Gen 3:6]. She placed her lusts over what she knew was wrong.

The scriptures do not say if she became deceived over time or in one instance.

[Revilonivek]

excellent question, Jingle52.

I wonder about that too.  The answers we are given do make sense but it raises more questions.


 We all know we are tempted everyday with everything that goes on around us in everyday life.  How do we prevent ourselves from sinning? Ray says being tempted is a sin.  We know everything contributes to a temptation, it doesn't work separately. If you have lust, you are tempted, You have thoughts, desires, you are tempted regardless in some form. Good or bad, we are tempted. You cannot be tempted if you do not have any other reason to be tempted. 

I think what the adam and eve  story is referring to is our  human nature.  It points out imperfections of human nature and it continues to this very day. We are tempted constantly. How can we stop ourselves from being tempted at all? Eve was tempted by her desire.

How do we avoid being tempted at all?

How can we have lust and not temptation. These pairs come together, not separately. we cannot have lust(desire) unless we are tempted as well.  We have thoughts all the time, it tempts us all the time.. maybe the real solution to not being tempted, is not to think... only Obey. Maybe Eve sinned by thinking about it instead of giving in and obey.
 
Does this mean God wants to weed out human nature and have no temptation toward anything?

Obviously, the real culprit is satan, causing the temptation. Causing us to "sin" since the beginning.

Maybe God's plan is to help us  weed out the satan consciousness out of our nature.

Like Kat pointed out earlier in a different post, that Satan is a spirit, never found to be physical throughout the bible. I think satan may refer to our "evil" part of our consciousness. Satan is called the tempter in the bible.

How do we stop, weed out what has always been part of human nature? That means denying your whole human existence, who you are in order to do it.  Jesus said we are to deny ourselves or we cannot follow.  It is very hard to accomplish something like this in a world like the one we live in.  For example. I am sure one of you use to smoke at one point and know how hard it was to quit. You do it by not hanging out with other smokers, otherwise it'll be very difficult to quit.  We stop smoking by resisting giving in, and eventually it slows down and in a few years, it's not that bad and you're stronger to fight the temptation.

Jesus said it plainly.. resist and it will flee from you. So resisting is the key.

Jesus was tempted in the wilderness. He THOUGHT about taking over the world...but he resisted. I think it helps a great deal to resist if  you have divine knowledge like Jesus did. He did it because he had it. Maybe that is the reason why  only the elect will make it in this life time.  because the "elect" receive divine knowledge like Jesus did, in order to resist. The proper tools to fight and overcome in a world like this is essential.

so for the rest, it is futile to resist human nature without the proper tools.  Just my observation.

Thoughts?


Denise

[mharrell08]

Like Kat pointed out earlier in a different post, that Satan is a spirit, never found to be physical throughout the bible. I think satan may refer to our "evil" part of our consciousness. Satan is called the tempter in the bible.

FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11604.msg117002.html#msg117002

This is a theory that comes up 2-3 times a year. It has no scriptural basis as well as contradicts almost the entire Bible.

Jesus was tempted in the wilderness. He THOUGHT about taking over the world...but he resisted.

I've never read anywhere that Jesus thought of taking over the world. Why would He even think such when He gave up all power & glory so He could be fashioned into a man in order to die? He knew He would receive back all power and glory.

[Kat]

Hi Denise,

Here are a few places where Ray explains about temptation and lust.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2158.0 ---------

Temptation is usually translated from "peirazo" and it means to test, scrutinize, prove, examine, etc.  None of these things are "sin."  When a man sees a pretty girl, the first thing he does is look. This is not a sin, in and by itself.  However a temptation has been presented and the man's mind is now presented with a couple of options:  [1] continue looking and examining the lady's body in a sexual, lustful, self-gratifying way, or [2] realize that this is a temptation that could lead to lust and sin, and therefore LOOK AWAY.
 
The temptation is not the sin.  It is not rocket science to understand. Someone offers you a large amount of money to tell a lie.  You think to yourself "with that money I could pay off all my debts, but to get it I would have to lie and lying is a sin, and I refuse to sin." You then say, "NO, I will not lie for money."  You did not sin. The temptation presented itself, you understood it, you evaluated it and took the high road by not giving into the temptation to the point that you  [1] began to actually lust for the money, [2] agreed to offer, and [3] carried it out by telling the lie.  When James says "lust," the word really means "desire."  And so, notice what he says,
 
"Then when desire has CONCEIVED, it brings forth sin...." (James 1:14).
 
If there were zero desire attached to a temptation, then there would not BE a temptation at all, but Jesus REALLY WAS TEMPTED.  He just wouldn't allow Himself to begin fulfilling whatever the desire may have been.  I can always be tempted by a good chocolate cake or good ice cream, but I often do not give in to the tempation, because I know that I don't want to gain more weight or whatever the reason may be for denying it. Having a desire to look at a beautiful woman is not a sin unless one gives in to where that desire will naturally lead, and allows sin to conceive.


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm ---------------

And so Jesus, Who knew the temptations of the flesh (the "temptations," not the "lusts"). Jesus was tempted, but never lusted. Once you "lust," you have already "SINNED." Jesus went right to the heart of the problem of spiritual morality and spiritual conversion:

"You have heard that it was said by them of old time, you shall not commit adultery..."

And there are many men who have been obedient to this part of the commandment.

"But I say unto you, that whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matt. 5:27-28).

So what is a man to do? No viral man has the ability to NOT LUST after pretty women (and as Billy Crystal would have us know, sometimes not so pretty women). It is as natural as a knee-jerk, and if you women hear a different story from your husbands, know that they are lying through their teeth. All men lust after women. But it's a sin. Why is it a sin? Because Jesus said so. (And other reasons I don't have time to go into now). It's a sin and men are powerless to overcome it. What are we to do? Not even marriage will totally solve the spiritual aspect of this problem. But there is a way to conquer this and all sins.

Jesus never sinned. Why not? Why didn't Jesus sin? I have said before: Because His Father wouldn't let Him sin, and because His Father inspired Jesus through His Holy Spirit to turn from the temptation every time. Jesus' motivation to not sin was much greater than His temptation to sin, and the stronger motivator (the love of God's Spirit in Him) always won out. This is how Jesus "overcame the world." Now then, is this powerful motivator available to us? Yes, thank God, it is:

"But you shall receive power after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you..." (Acts 1:08).

And so, when a man who is tempted to spend more time looking at a woman than he should, looking at her to lust after her, the Spirit of God will give him power to turn away. God won't make you or force you to turn away, but He will give you the power to turn away, and then you have to do the turning. And should you fail to turn away before you actually lust after her, then you must "pluck out your eye. No not your literal, physical, organ of the body, but the lustful eye of your heart.

No man's physical eyes has ever lusted after anything. All lust comes from the heart, the carnal mind, and that part of the carnal mind must be "plucked out," or "cut off." But you must be the one who does the plucking and cutting or God will intervene and "cast your whole body into Gehenna fire" in a later Judgment where this spiritual fire is called "The Lake of Fire."
v
And so we have proof from this very verse that spiritually plucking out an eye or spiritually cutting off a hand or foot, IS spiritually being purged by Christ's spiritual Gehenna fire! That is what Gehenna fire represents-the spiritual judging and correcting of the human heart and carnal mind. This is what spiritual overcoming is.
 

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm -------------

Why would Jesus tell us to pray that God should NOT lead us into temptation [Gk: trial] when, in reality, we DO go through trials?

After all, Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness for the express purpose of being "tried."

Then James comes along and says

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTS HE ANY MAN." (James 1:13).

And if that is bad enough, James first tells us in James 1:2 to

"...COUNT IT ALL JOY WHEN YE FALL INTO DIVERS TEMPTATIONS"!

What is going on here?

Although this might sound like a triple contradiction, it is not.

First let's be abundantly clear that God, HIMSELF, does not ever do the actual "trying or tempting."

"And the SERPENT said unto Eve... And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food,  and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES ['...the lust of the eyes ... is NOT OF the Father...' John 2:16], and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT... And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED [deceived] ME..." (Gen. 3:6 & 13).

"And lead us not into temptation but DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan]" (Matt. 6:13).

"...when YOU FALL into divers [various] temptations [trials]..." (James 1:2).

"But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15).

From all of these examples it is abundantly clear that it is not the OBJECT that is the TEMPTATION, but rather the temptation COMES FROM WITHIN, not from without. It was not the "tree" that MADE Eve lust. It is not the "pretty woman" that MAKES a man lust. The LUST IS IN THE MIND, IN THE HEART, and therefore, the trial IS IN THE HEART AND MIND, not in the literal flesh.

And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.

But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.

The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,

"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).

The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."

Hope that helps a little.

God be with you,

Ray

[newborn]

Quote from Kat:

"p.s. Imagine if one day we do actually see God, it would without a doubt far exceed anything else we have seen in beauty and glory. What must He be like? I think one day we will know."

I always get so excited when I think about seeing God face to face...
Can't stop smiling...

[jingle52]

Thank you all for your responses.
Kat, I read this thread some time ago but obviously forgot about it. It really, really makes sense to me now about praying to God to not lead us into temptation and then to deliver us from the evil one (Satan) who is there at every turn, just waiting to devour us….. Sometimes I find (now) that it’s getting easier to turn away, other times, I just fall headlong into that silly trap and then only afterwards realise “shoot, I shouldn’t have done/said that” and then in my mind I talk to God and ask Him to forgive me and make me strong so that I can see it coming the next time. Sometimes it works, other times not! A case in point when it did not work:
Yesterday, while having coffee outside a bar near our flat, there were people talking so loudly to each other that it quite irritated me and so I couldn’t concentrate on the conversation my husband and I were having. I started judging those people for not having respect/consideration for those around them as I could follow the conversation of these people sitting four tables away from me quite clearly.  There was another table near ours where this man was arguing the salient points of our corrupt politicians and this too could be heard across the other end of the outside deck. Now  I go out on a Sunday morning to relax, read the newspaper and have a chat while enjoying a cappuccino and a brioche, I do not want to hear other peoples’ conversations or business, so why do they have to announce their presence by showing such disrespect/inconsideration to others??? (there were other people reading and talking too, but normally).
This is “the pride of life” judging others syndrome Ihave when things do not work out according to my way of being or thinking. 

"But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15).

From all of these examples it is abundantly clear that it is not the OBJECT that is the TEMPTATION, but rather the temptation COMES FROM WITHIN, not from without. It was not the "tree" that MADE Eve lust. It is not the "pretty woman" that MAKES a man lust. The LUST IS IN THE MIND, IN THE HEART, and therefore, the trial IS IN THE HEART AND MIND, not in the literal flesh.

And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.

But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.

This really gives me hope!

[Duane]

seeing vs. lust
My father once said about temptation: "you can't stop a bird from flying over your head BUT you can stop it from making a nest in your hair"!

[acomplishedartis]

seeing vs. lust
My father once said about temptation: "you can't stop a bird from flying over your head BUT you can stop it from making a nest in your hair"!

I really like that saying. All these subjects are so interesting, I will make more time to write down something later. An by the way, I know blind people can lust with their eyes too. Can we really trust sight? Have somebody seen before optical illusions? Is 'lust of the eyes' talking about our physical eyes?

We live a time in history where sign and images (mostly trough advertising) have got very powerful and dangerous...
Choosing what we REALLY need and overthinking why and how we need it (while looking to do the right), is very different from falling into just buying brands and things that we are not really sure if we need them or not (while just following suggestions and our emotions).

I am guilty of all, and driving my self for change.

 

[Revilonivek]

Like Kat pointed out earlier in a different post, that Satan is a spirit, never found to be physical throughout the bible. I think satan may refer to our "evil" part of our consciousness. Satan is called the tempter in the bible.

FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11604.msg117002.html#msg117002

This is a theory that comes up 2-3 times a year. It has no scriptural basis as well as contradicts almost the entire Bible.

Jesus was tempted in the wilderness. He THOUGHT about taking over the world...but he resisted.

I've never read anywhere that Jesus thought of taking over the world. Why would He even think such when He gave up all power & glory so He could be fashioned into a man in order to die? He knew He would receive back all power and glory.

The point of the story in the wilderness, is that Jesus was tempted with alot of things. but he put His Father's will first above his own. That's how he did it. We all are tempted one way or another. Religious or not. He was in the wilderness. He was fasting. He was hungry to the point he was tempted to turn rock to bread. He had the power to do so. He refused bec it would hinder his spiritual mediation and cleansing of the body and mind.   So he thought about alot of spiritual stuff, the deep things of God. He was tempted of course but he put his Father 's will first above all others. Even his own. Thats what he did. He put His Father first, just like how we should. Of course Jesus gave up his own glory, because he knew and trusted God. He put God and others first before his own.

I admire him for that. I thank him for what he did. That took a lot.