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Paul The 13th Apostle?

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Deborah-Leigh:
Beautifully expounded G.Driggs ~


Hi Jon ~ your concerns don't worry me about Paul.
 

One wrong or two wrongs don't make a right. Ray exposes what is wrong and brings it into the Light. That is not wrong ~ 
 

Any seeking to find a battle with the letter of the Word, shall find a war. Thirty thousand different denominations in Christiandom all profess to be the one that is right. The one contradicting the other are all doors to walk through to the Truth and not into membership of one contradiction opposing another.


Believe what you believe.


 As for me in my house, all are welcome  as those who carry peace in reflection of understanding the living Spirit of Christ within. Would you so judge me as being as Appollonius or Paul?


Christ is risen, you know that. He is risen from the earth. The clay earthen vessels of humankind including Mathew Mark, Luke and John and Paul and Appollonius and Jezebel, myself and all flesh of the earth...I am fully persuaded that Jesus Christ is lifted up.


You quote Revelations so I bid you find comfort and solstice, peace and sancturary to your search in the following:


Joh 12:32  and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'


Drawn to Christ, no man His medium, but Christ Himself in you, your Hope of Glory, Peace and Love.


Arc

mharrell08:
Jon, your comments regarding Paul have various flaws:


--- Quote from: jong on July 13, 2011, 05:16:57 AM ---1. We are told to test whoever call themselves apostles.

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

2. Paul condones/allows the eating foods sacrificed to idols in 1 Corinthians 8. Yet in Revelation, Jesus rebukes churches for eating foods sacrificed to idols.

Revelation 2:14 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

Revelation 2:20 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols
--- End quote ---

I normally do not like to post entire chapters of scriptures, but you seem to be ignoring Paul's entire passage in order to prove your point from 1 sentence:

1 Cor 8:1-3  Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

The first point Paul makes is that love is of much greater value than knowledge. Well, what does that have to do with eating of idols?


1 Cor 8:4-6 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Paul tells the Corinthians that we (believers) know that an idol is meaningless, as there is one God: the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. So that's knowledge that we as believers have, but what was the point about love being greater in the previous passage?


1 Cor 7-8 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

Paul says not everyone has this knowledge of the One True God, but rather, they eat offerings to idols with the 'consciousness' (belief) of that idol. And it is their conscience (belief) that is said to be weak & defiled, not from what they ate. He then notes, that regarding food, to eat or not to eat does not make us better or worse than them.

But going back to the first sentence in this passage (the one you believe 'proves' Paul condones eating of idol offerings), what was the point of stating love is greater than knowledge?

1 Cor 9-13 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak.  For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

Here is the whole point of this passage: Paul knows that an idol offering does not affect his relationship with God, since his consciousness (belief) is not of an idol but rather the One True God. But a brethren in the faith, who is not as strong in mind, may see the act of eating this same idol offering as offensive. And Paul says that love, which is greater than this knowledge, ought to be displayed for this fellow brethren over the knowledge that the act of eating means nothing.

Here are additional admonishments from Paul that tell the real picture of what he 'condones' from idol offerings:

1 Cor 10:14, 14-22  Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry...Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.

You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

How does Paul 'condone' eating of idol offerings when he states 'I DO NOT want you to have fellowship' with demons and those who sacrifice to them?

1 Cor 10:27-33  If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for “the earth is the LORD’s, and all its fullness.”

“Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other. [Paul is consistent: Love is greater than knowledge! - 1 Cor 8:1] For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Again, Paul says 'DO NOT EAT IT', and yet you claim Paul condones such actions.



--- Quote from: jong on July 13, 2011, 05:16:57 AM ---3. Benjamite wolf prophecy

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called his sons and said, "Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:

Genesis 49:27 "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil."

Rom 11:1, Phil 3:5 ....Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin. Initially (in the morning), he started out murdering Christians , then later (in the night) dividing the church along Jew-Gentile lines.

Ezekiel 22:25-28 ...The "conspiracy of prophets" who "violates the Law," and who teach the people to "hide their eyes from the Sabbath," and to no longer discern clean food from impure food, etc. These wolves are associated with those who "have false visions" and "divine" lies in the Lord's name.
--- End quote ---

You have not proven anything!

Jacob called his sons to BLESS THEM, not pronounce a curse on any of them. To 'befall' someone means to meet or encounter, there is not a negative connotation with the word:

Gen 49:28  All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father [Jacob aka Israel] said to them when he blessed them. He blessed them, every one with the blessing appropriate to him

After the Lord severely judged the tribe of Benjamin [Judges 20], they became a pillar within the tribes of Israel. Benjamin (the tribe) would even eventually become a sort of 'right hand' of Judah (the tribe, also the lineage that produced Jesus Christ) as they were willing to fight against the other 10 tribes of Israel during a period of strife [1 Kings 12]. They along with Judah and the Levites helped restore the Israelites after their captivity.

If anything it would make perfect sense for Jesus (tribe of Judah) to choose Paul (tribe of Benjamin) to be his 'minister of flame' [Ps 104:4] and 'fight the good fight of faith' [1 Tim 6:12].



--- Quote from: jong on July 13, 2011, 05:16:57 AM ---4. Is Paul, actually Apollonius?

Acts 21:38 "Are you not the Egyptian who some time ago stirred up a rebellion and led the four thousand assassins out into the wilderness?"

Either Paul went by the name of Apollonius or the Roman commander knew about  Apollonius the Egyptian false prophet  and  what  Apollonius looked like. Google and find out the many coincidences between the life & teachings of Apollonius & Paul.
--- End quote ---

WHAT???

No one even mentions 'Apollonius', only YOU! The Roman commander does not, Paul does not, and neither does any other scripture. How can you honestly ask did the Roman commander 'know about Apollonius or what he looked like'? He never mentioned him!

Here is the conversation between Paul and the Roman commander:

Acts 21:37-39  As Paul was about to be brought into the barracks, he said to the commander, “May I say something to you?” And he [the Roman Commander] said, “Do you know Greek? Then you are not the Egyptian who some time ago stirred up a revolt and led the four thousand men of the Assassins out into the wilderness?” But Paul said, “I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people.”

Once Paul spoke to the commander in his dialect, the commander noted how Paul could not be the Egyptian who led a revolt because he knew Greek. The commander ASKED Paul about this Egyptian, he did not claim that is who Paul was. Paul had to inform the commander who he was, where he was from, and knew the language in order to speak to the people.



--- Quote from: jong on July 13, 2011, 05:16:57 AM ---Google and find out the many coincidences between the life & teachings of Apollonius & Paul.
--- End quote ---

Do you know how many coincidences exist between Jesus and other idols? Does that prove that these idols have 'some' truth to them? How strong is one's faith if it is tossed to and fro from coincidences?



--- Quote from: jong on July 13, 2011, 05:16:57 AM ---IF (a very big IF) the teachings of Paul were excluded from the New Testament, would we still come to the same conclusions that we have all learnt under Ray?

Thank you all for any further insights,
Jon
--- End quote ---


Where do you think Paul got his teachings from? No other epistle quotes from the OT more than Paul, and the OT testifies of Jesus Christ [Lk 24:44]. Paul simply expounded upon God's Word which had been around for generations before Paul's birth.

There are only 2 places, throughout the entire Holy Scriptures, which distinctly testify of all mankind having their works tried by fire. Paul was the FIRST to state this truth ['each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work' - 1 Cor 3:13]. And who else provided the additional witness:

Rev 1:1-2, 20:12 & 15  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John...the dead were judged according to their works...And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus Christ, through His servant John provides another witness to testify of this truth first spoken by Paul. Now, how could Paul know this? The only way Paul could know such a thing is if Jesus Christ told/taught him.

A false prophet is supposed to only see false visions, not speak the truth as Paul did. Paul saw and understood judgment long before most other converts, including the first 12 apostles.

This is why we must read and study, all the words...not just find one or two passages in an attempt to prove our point or pet theory. When we only want to find one or two passages to 'prove our point', it becomes an issue of pride & vanity.



Thanks,

Marques

Deborah-Leigh:


No Scripture says that if one Scripture or two are quoted, then the issue is one of vanity and pride. Ray often quotes one or two Scriptures in response to questions.


The Scriptures say no such thing either, that quoting many Scriptures will lead to edification! ~ :D


Arc

mharrell08:

--- Quote from: Arcturus on July 13, 2011, 12:54:34 PM ---No Scripture says that if one Scripture or two are quoted, then the issue is one of vanity and pride. Ray often quotes one or two Scriptures in response to questions.
--- End quote ---


Arcturus, you're missing the point and misquoting me. When one only wants to prove their point or pet belief, then their motivation and intentions are of pride & vanity. They have already made up their mind they are in the right and only want to find passages that vaguely or can be misinterpreted to agree. The church does this constantly with all their doctrines.

Marky Mark:
Hello Jon and welcome.  :)



--- Quote ---My own philosophy is to really understand what I believe, and to find out more about what I believe.
--- End quote ---


You can understand your own philosophy about what you believe or you can by the grace of God come to understand that it is only by the faith of Jesus Christ that we can come to what the truth of God really is.What you or I believe outside the word of God is not even relevant in the Masters eye.

1Co 15:10  But by the grace of God I am what I am:


--- Quote ---The teachings of Ray has so far allowed me to understand deeper the messages of the Good News & the glorious plans God has for each one of us.
--- End quote ---


You say and believe that Ray is a teacher of the truths of God but then go on to question the validity of Paul's writings from which Ray teaches? It is the gospel of peace that brings about glad tidings for those whom have ears to hear the truth of the Spirit.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


--- Quote ---Then I chanced upon the possibility of St. Paul being a false prophet
--- End quote ---

Who are we to believe,man or God?

Rom 3:4  God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

The Word of God is just that,His Word. We must keep based in His Faith.

Col 1:23  If you keep yourselves safely based in the faith, not moved from the hope of the good news which came to you, and which was given to every living being under heaven; of which I, Paul, was made a servant.

According to God, this is who Paul is.
  
Tit 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Act 13:2  As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Act 13:3  And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
Act 13:4  So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
Act 13:5  And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.

Do we really believe that the words spoken of are true and profitable? If Paul is a false prophet then I would have to conclude that God is a liar and that His word means nothing. [I speak as a fool].

2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

continuing with Paul...

Act 9:26  And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
Act 9:27  But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
 Act 9:28  And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem.
Act 9:29  And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

Act 24:14  But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Rom 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


To base ones Scriptural understanding on anything but Scripture is precisely what the evil one is counting on...

Hope this helps some.

Peace...Mark

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