> General Discussions
Paul The 13th Apostle?
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on July 13, 2011, 11:41:25 AM ---Jon, your comments regarding Paul have various flaws:
--- Quote from: jong on July 13, 2011, 05:16:57 AM ---1. We are told to test whoever call themselves apostles.
Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
2. Paul condones/allows the eating foods sacrificed to idols in 1 Corinthians 8. Yet in Revelation, Jesus rebukes churches for eating foods sacrificed to idols.
Revelation 2:14 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.
Revelation 2:20 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols
--- End quote ---
I normally do not like to post entire chapters of scriptures, but you seem to be ignoring Paul's entire passage in order to prove your point from 1 sentence:
1 Cor 8:1-3 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.
The first point Paul makes is that love is of much greater value than knowledge. Well, what does that have to do with eating of idols?
1 Cor 8:4-6 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Paul tells the Corinthians that we (believers) know that an idol is meaningless, as there is one God: the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. So that's knowledge that we as believers have, but what was the point about love being greater in the previous passage?
1 Cor 7-8 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
Paul says not everyone has this knowledge of the One True God, but rather, they eat offerings to idols with the 'consciousness' (belief) of that idol. And it is their conscience (belief) that is said to be weak & defiled, not from what they ate. He then notes, that regarding food, to eat or not to eat does not make us better or worse than them.
But going back to the first sentence in this passage (the one you believe 'proves' Paul condones eating of idol offerings), what was the point of stating love is greater than knowledge?
1 Cor 9-13 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
Here is the whole point of this passage: Paul knows that an idol offering does not affect his relationship with God, since his consciousness (belief) is not of an idol but rather the One True God. But a brethren in the faith, who is not as strong in mind, may see the act of eating this same idol offering as offensive. And Paul says that love, which is greater than this knowledge, ought to be displayed for this fellow brethren over the knowledge that the act of eating means nothing.
Here are additional admonishments from Paul that tell the real picture of what he 'condones' from idol offerings:
1 Cor 10:14, 14-22 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry...Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?
How does Paul 'condone' eating of idol offerings when he states 'I DO NOT want you to have fellowship' with demons and those who sacrifice to them?
1 Cor 10:27-33 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for “the earth is the LORD’s, and all its fullness.”
“Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other. [Paul is consistent: Love is greater than knowledge! - 1 Cor 8:1] For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
Again, Paul says 'DO NOT EAT IT', and yet you claim Paul condones such actions.
--- Quote from: jong on July 13, 2011, 05:16:57 AM ---3. Benjamite wolf prophecy
Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called his sons and said, "Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:
Genesis 49:27 "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil."
Rom 11:1, Phil 3:5 ....Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin. Initially (in the morning), he started out murdering Christians , then later (in the night) dividing the church along Jew-Gentile lines.
Ezekiel 22:25-28 ...The "conspiracy of prophets" who "violates the Law," and who teach the people to "hide their eyes from the Sabbath," and to no longer discern clean food from impure food, etc. These wolves are associated with those who "have false visions" and "divine" lies in the Lord's name.
--- End quote ---
You have not proven anything!
Jacob called his sons to BLESS THEM, not pronounce a curse on any of them. To 'befall' someone means to meet or encounter, there is not a negative connotation with the word:
Gen 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father [Jacob aka Israel] said to them when he blessed them. He blessed them, every one with the blessing appropriate to him
After the Lord severely judged the tribe of Benjamin [Judges 20], they became a pillar within the tribes of Israel. Benjamin (the tribe) would even eventually become a sort of 'right hand' of Judah (the tribe, also the lineage that produced Jesus Christ) as they were willing to fight against the other 10 tribes of Israel during a period of strife [1 Kings 12]. They along with Judah and the Levites helped restore the Israelites after their captivity.
If anything it would make perfect sense for Jesus (tribe of Judah) to choose Paul (tribe of Benjamin) to be his 'minister of flame' [Ps 104:4] and 'fight the good fight of faith' [1 Tim 6:12].
--- Quote from: jong on July 13, 2011, 05:16:57 AM ---4. Is Paul, actually Apollonius?
Acts 21:38 "Are you not the Egyptian who some time ago stirred up a rebellion and led the four thousand assassins out into the wilderness?"
Either Paul went by the name of Apollonius or the Roman commander knew about Apollonius the Egyptian false prophet and what Apollonius looked like. Google and find out the many coincidences between the life & teachings of Apollonius & Paul.
--- End quote ---
WHAT???
No one even mentions 'Apollonius', only YOU! The Roman commander does not, Paul does not, and neither does any other scripture. How can you honestly ask did the Roman commander 'know about Apollonius or what he looked like'? He never mentioned him!
Here is the conversation between Paul and the Roman commander:
Acts 21:37-39 As Paul was about to be brought into the barracks, he said to the commander, “May I say something to you?” And he [the Roman Commander] said, “Do you know Greek? Then you are not the Egyptian who some time ago stirred up a revolt and led the four thousand men of the Assassins out into the wilderness?” But Paul said, “I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people.”
Once Paul spoke to the commander in his dialect, the commander noted how Paul could not be the Egyptian who led a revolt because he knew Greek. The commander ASKED Paul about this Egyptian, he did not claim that is who Paul was. Paul had to inform the commander who he was, where he was from, and knew the language in order to speak to the people.
--- Quote from: jong on July 13, 2011, 05:16:57 AM ---Google and find out the many coincidences between the life & teachings of Apollonius & Paul.
--- End quote ---
Do you know how many coincidences exist between Jesus and other idols? Does that prove that these idols have 'some' truth to them? How strong is one's faith if it is tossed to and fro from coincidences?
--- Quote from: jong on July 13, 2011, 05:16:57 AM ---IF (a very big IF) the teachings of Paul were excluded from the New Testament, would we still come to the same conclusions that we have all learnt under Ray?
Thank you all for any further insights,
Jon
--- End quote ---
Where do you think Paul got his teachings from? No other epistle quotes from the OT more than Paul, and the OT testifies of Jesus Christ [Lk 24:44]. Paul simply expounded upon God's Word which had been around for generations before Paul's birth.
There are only 2 places, throughout the entire Holy Scriptures, which distinctly testify of all mankind having their works tried by fire. Paul was the FIRST to state this truth ['each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work' - 1 Cor 3:13]. And who else provided the additional witness:
Rev 1:1-2, 20:12 & 15 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John...the dead were judged according to their works...And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Jesus Christ, through His servant John provides another witness to testify of this truth first spoken by Paul. Now, how could Paul know this? The only way Paul could know such a thing is if Jesus Christ told/taught him.
A false prophet is supposed to only see false visions, not speak the truth as Paul did. Paul saw and understood judgment long before most other converts, including the first 12 apostles.
This is why we must read and study, all the words...not just find one or two passages in an attempt to prove our point or pet theory. When we only want to find one or two passages to 'prove our point', it becomes an issue of pride & vanity.
Thanks,
Marques
--- End quote ---
Powerful stuff Marques. Thank you, that was very edifying for me! :)
Deborah-Leigh:
Jon, you have received some very worthwhile edifying Scriptures to ponder and reflect upon via our brothers. ~
Marques ~ Your statement that I misquoted you, is false. I did not quote you. You clarified your perception in your second statement that aired your opinion that I had missed your point and falsley stated that I mis-quoted you, of which I did neither. Your first and second statements are different.
I find no problem with your response in the Scriptures to Jon. In fact, the Scriptures are perfect!
Arcturus
Akira329:
--- Quote ---There are only 2 places, throughout the entire Holy Scriptures, which distinctly testify of all mankind having their works tried by fire. Paul was the FIRST to state this truth ['each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work' - 1 Cor 3:13]. And who else provided the additional witness:
Rev 1:1-2, 20:12 & 15 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John...the dead were judged according to their works...And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
--- End quote ---
Strongest witness Jon, believe it!!
Using scriptures to conform to your point of view is never the way to go.
I hope you have been helped!
Antaiwan
jong:
Dear All,
Thank you for your great help in clearing any doubts I had.
Jon
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[*] Previous page
Go to full version