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Author Topic: The most important question  (Read 19872 times)

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2011, 05:53:17 PM »


 
Jesus Christ is alive, the cup is past, it is finished.   

Arc
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G. Driggs

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2011, 06:15:08 PM »

Marques is correct.  That cup did not pass from Jesus.

Also, I respect Jesus for asking that the cup pass.  Who in their right mind would want to go through torture?  This shows me that Jesus was not a nut but had a sound mind.

Another lesson I learned from that prayer of Jesus.  If the Father said no to Jesus, then the Father won't hesitate to say no to me.  Many things that I have asked for in prayer, I have received an answer from the Father of NO!

Would you also agree that maybe Jesus was showing His human side? The side of humanity that is weak in the flesh? Seems this is one of those times Jesus was being tempted to give in to His flesh when He asked to have the cup pass from Him, but His Father wouldn't let Him.

Here is an "important question".

Mat 20:22  But Jesus answered by saying to them, "You don't know what you are asking! Are you able to drink from the bitter cup of suffering I am about to drink?" "Oh yes," they replied, "we are able!"

Sorry I know a little deep and off topic in the off topic board, my bad.
Since this discussion has gone where it has gone, I couldn't help it.

Here is something from Ray I missed before, where it seems Jesus changed His prayer from "let this cup pass" to "if this cup MAY NOT pass from me".  

http://www.bible-truths.com/emails.html

From the King James:

    "Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

This marvelous Scripture, however, does not bring out the whole truth contained in the Greek manuscripts regarding this verse, in the King James Version. Here is a better translation.

From the Concordant Literal New Testament:

    "Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with WHAT MUST BE, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings."

"With WHAT MUST BE..."  There is the answer!  And here is the perfect application of this verse in the real world:

    "And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed saying, O My Father, IF it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: [but that was NOT POSSIBLE! God had already PREDETERMINED that Jesus SHOULD drink this cup, and therefore, IMMEDIATELY recanted to the prodding of the Holy Spirit and said the following...]: nevertheless not as I will, BUT AS THOU WILL ['to accord with WHAT MUST BE']."

Then Jesus prayed again, WITHOUT asking God to take the cup from Him:

    "He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup may NOT pass away from Me, except I drink it, THY WILL BE DONE" (Matt. 26:39 & 42).

Clearly Jesus was CAUSED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to pray "in accord with WHAT MUST BE."
-----------------------

Peace to ALL

G.Driggs
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G. Driggs

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2011, 06:52:32 PM »


 
Jesus Christ is alive, the cup is past, it is finished.  

Arc

Good point Arc! It did pass, AFTER Jesus drank it. I don't see any disagreement here. Your initial response confused me a bit Arc, until I read that part I quoted from Ray. Maybe you should have included your above quote with your first response? Just sayin. ;)

Jesus kept watching and praying so as not to fall into temptation after He asked to let the cup pass knowing the flesh is weak, but the spirit is willing.

Mat 26:40  Then He returned to the disciples and found them asleep. He said to Peter, "Couldn't you watch with Me even one hour?
Mat 26:41  Keep watch and pray, so that you will not give in to temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak!"
Mat 26:42  Then Jesus left them a second time and prayed, "My Father! If this cup cannot be taken away unless I drink it, Your will be done."

What a great example for the disciples and us! When your feeling weak pray for strength. Where have I heard that before?

Luk 11:2  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Luk 11:3  Give us day by day our daily bread.
Luk 11:4  And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.  

Just to try and stay semi on topic, the most important question, who, what, when, why? I haven't a clue, sorry. ;D

G.Driggs

« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 06:55:30 PM by G. Driggs »
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John from Kentucky

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2011, 08:55:36 PM »

Marques is correct.  That cup did not pass from Jesus.

Also, I respect Jesus for asking that the cup pass.  Who in their right mind would want to go through torture?  This shows me that Jesus was not a nut but had a sound mind.

Another lesson I learned from that prayer of Jesus.  If the Father said no to Jesus, then the Father won't hesitate to say no to me.  Many things that I have asked for in prayer, I have received an answer from the Father of NO!

Would you also agree that maybe Jesus was showing His human side? The side of humanity that is weak in the flesh? Seems this is one of those times Jesus was being tempted to give in to His flesh when He asked to have the cup pass from Him, but His Father wouldn't let Him.

Here is an "important question".

Mat 20:22  But Jesus answered by saying to them, "You don't know what you are asking! Are you able to drink from the bitter cup of suffering I am about to drink?" "Oh yes," they replied, "we are able!"

Sorry I know a little deep and off topic in the off topic board, my bad.
Since this discussion has gone where it has gone, I couldn't help it.

Here is something from Ray I missed before, where it seems Jesus changed His prayer from "let this cup pass" to "if this cup MAY NOT pass from me".  

http://www.bible-truths.com/emails.html

From the King James:

    "Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

This marvelous Scripture, however, does not bring out the whole truth contained in the Greek manuscripts regarding this verse, in the King James Version. Here is a better translation.

From the Concordant Literal New Testament:

    "Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with WHAT MUST BE, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings."

"With WHAT MUST BE..."  There is the answer!  And here is the perfect application of this verse in the real world:

    "And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed saying, O My Father, IF it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: [but that was NOT POSSIBLE! God had already PREDETERMINED that Jesus SHOULD drink this cup, and therefore, IMMEDIATELY recanted to the prodding of the Holy Spirit and said the following...]: nevertheless not as I will, BUT AS THOU WILL ['to accord with WHAT MUST BE']."

Then Jesus prayed again, WITHOUT asking God to take the cup from Him:

    "He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup may NOT pass away from Me, except I drink it, THY WILL BE DONE" (Matt. 26:39 & 42).

Clearly Jesus was CAUSED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to pray "in accord with WHAT MUST BE."
-----------------------

Peace to ALL

G.Driggs

Hi,

I don't have any problems with the scriptures you quoted.

But you say maybe Jesus was showing His "human" side.  What does that exactly mean?  What other side did He have?  He didn't have a split personality like the christian churches falsely teach--- a divine side and a human side.

He gave up all the power He had before His human birth.  He was made a little lower than the angels.  The breath of life came into Him and He became a living nephesh, a living human soul, subject to death.

Jesus said that He could do nothing Himself.  That the Father in Him, the Father did all the works.  I get that.  Jesus said that there is no one good but one, God.  I get that too.  His words are the basis of my beliefs that we have no good in us either, and we can do nothing of ourselves.  That any good in us comes only from God in us.  God does all the works.  He gives us both the will and the to do.

The night before He died, He knew that He was going to be terribly beaten, that He would be nailed to a stake and suffer for hours, then be stabbed to death.  I understand fully why He prayed to God asking, if it were possible, that another way be found other than what was to come.  He would have been a total psycho if He didn't ask for a way out.  The Spirit of God is the Spirit of a sound mind.  This Spirit doesn't do crazy things.

He prayed to the only One Who can get things done.  The Father said NO.  That was it.  The Father's word is final.  The Father got Him through those terrible trials.  Jesus stood tall, He didn't whine or beg, He didn't have a pity party.  He accepted His lot through the power of His God.  I'm proud as punch as to how He conducted Himself.

John
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 09:47:49 AM by John from Kentucky »
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Kat

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2011, 09:00:23 PM »

Hi G. Driggs,

Quote
Would you also agree that maybe Jesus was showing His human side? The side of humanity that is weak in the flesh? Seems this is one of those times Jesus was being tempted to give in to His flesh when He asked to have the cup pass from Him, but His Father wouldn't let Him.

Yes Jesus was flesh and blood and knew what was coming, remember what was already written about Him in the OT.

Psa 22:14  I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15  My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

But the Father must have really been longsuffering to watch His Son go through all that. He most certainly did not ignore His Son crying out in agony  :'(

Luke 22:43  And an angel appeared to Him from Heaven, strengthening Him.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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AK4

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2011, 11:26:41 PM »

Hi everyone and thanks for replying. Ive been away from my computer so i have not had a chance to read anyones response yet or even tell you guys which one i think is.  I still dont have time right now to read all of you guys responses, but i will.

Thanks
Anthony
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Rene

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2011, 03:19:09 AM »

Sorry Anthony,  but your original question got lost along the way.:P  Business as usual. ;D

René
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G. Driggs

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2011, 08:30:30 PM »


But you say maybe Jesus was showing His "human" side.  What does that exactly mean?  What other side did He have?  He didn't have a split personality like the christian churches falsely teach--- a divine side and a human side.

John

This quote from Ray should help explain what I was trying to say.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.0.html

If Jesus was just another little Jewish boy, and there was nothing “divine” about Him, why was He not just born naturally like every other little Jewish boy? Or why not supernaturally by using the Virgin Mary? Why did He need to be “conceived” (impregnated) - given the first ingredient of LIFE by the Holy Spirit of God? Why? After all, “He’s just a man.” Would just an ordinary, natural born Jewish boy somehow not be qualified to be the flawless, perfect, sinless, Saviour of the world? Why not?

Does Jesus have to be 100% human OR 100% God - one or the other? Or was He 100% human AND 100% God - both at the same time? No!

Jesus was not 100% human nor 100% God. JESUS WAS TOTALLY UNIQUE. He was a divine being in the family of God, Who emptied Himself (Phil. 2:7) of His powerful Godly honors and dignities and title. Yet He retained some glory and honor (Heb. 2:9) when He was MADE (for a little while) lower than the angels for the suffering of death. But He was not 100% God, in that He had to ask His Father…

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
-----------

My point was the human part of Him could be tempted in every way just like us, but His Father would not let Him give into it. It was that human part of Him that asked "let this cup pass".

He gave up all the power He had before His human birth.  He was made a little lower than the angels.  The breath of life came into Him and He became a living nephesh, a living human soul, subject to death.

It's obvious He did not give up "all power" because He did a lot of miracles while on earth. But He did give up most of His "glory" and "honor".


 I understand fully why He prayed to God asking, if it were possible, that another way be found other than what was to come.  He would have been a total psycho if He didn't ask for a way out

He asked because He was tempted to take the easy way out, just like carnal humanity likes to do. But Jesus wasn't carnal, He was just tempted to do that. Which is why He prayed again "in accord with what must be" just as Ray said and proved through the Scriptures. In that way He was an perfect example for us on how to pray.

It's obvious we disagree, and the last I want is to get into a quarrel with you or anyone else. This is just the way I understand these things at this time. If I'm wrong and if it's important, I hope and pray God show me.


But the Father must have really been longsuffering to watch His Son go through all that. He most certainly did not ignore His Son crying out in agony

I totally agree Kat, thanks.

Isa 63:9  In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old.

 

Peace,

G.Driggs

p.s. Sorry for getting so off topic Anthony.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 08:36:19 PM by G. Driggs »
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indianabob

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2011, 12:08:22 PM »

Dear friend G. Driggs,

One question about what you said about Jesus retaining "some" power in order that he could perform the miracles that he did while fulfilling his tasks.

Isn't it true that Jesus is quoted as saying that he did not do anything himself?
That all things were done by God the Father at Jesus' request?

Indiana Bob
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onelovedread

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2011, 01:24:08 PM »

Here we go again. We've lost the thread of the original posting. C'mon guys, we're already impressed by your considerable knowledge and your skill at debating.
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G. Driggs

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2011, 09:01:00 PM »

Hi Bob, check your private messages.

G.Driggs.
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Revilonivek

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2011, 10:47:33 PM »

Marques is correct.  That cup did not pass from Jesus.

Also, I respect Jesus for asking that the cup pass.  Who in their right mind would want to go through torture?  This shows me that Jesus was not a nut but had a sound mind.

Another lesson I learned from that prayer of Jesus.  If the Father said no to Jesus, then the Father won't hesitate to say no to me.  Many things that I have asked for in prayer, I have received an answer from the Father of NO!

Would you also agree that maybe Jesus was showing His human side? The side of humanity that is weak in the flesh? Seems this is one of those times Jesus was being tempted to give in to His flesh when He asked to have the cup pass from Him, but His Father wouldn't let Him.

Here is an "important question".

Mat 20:22  But Jesus answered by saying to them, "You don't know what you are asking! Are you able to drink from the bitter cup of suffering I am about to drink?" "Oh yes," they replied, "we are able!"

Sorry I know a little deep and off topic in the off topic board, my bad.
Since this discussion has gone where it has gone, I couldn't help it.

Here is something from Ray I missed before, where it seems Jesus changed His prayer from "let this cup pass" to "if this cup MAY NOT pass from me".  

http://www.bible-truths.com/emails.html

From the King James:

    "Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

This marvelous Scripture, however, does not bring out the whole truth contained in the Greek manuscripts regarding this verse, in the King James Version. Here is a better translation.

From the Concordant Literal New Testament:

    "Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with WHAT MUST BE, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings."

"With WHAT MUST BE..."  There is the answer!  And here is the perfect application of this verse in the real world:

    "And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed saying, O My Father, IF it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: [but that was NOT POSSIBLE! God had already PREDETERMINED that Jesus SHOULD drink this cup, and therefore, IMMEDIATELY recanted to the prodding of the Holy Spirit and said the following...]: nevertheless not as I will, BUT AS THOU WILL ['to accord with WHAT MUST BE']."

Then Jesus prayed again, WITHOUT asking God to take the cup from Him:

    "He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup may NOT pass away from Me, except I drink it, THY WILL BE DONE" (Matt. 26:39 & 42).

Clearly Jesus was CAUSED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to pray "in accord with WHAT MUST BE."
-----------------------

Peace to ALL

G.Driggs

Hi,

I don't have any problems with the scriptures you quoted.

But you say maybe Jesus was showing His "human" side.  What does that exactly mean?  What other side did He have?  He didn't have a split personality like the christian churches falsely teach--- a divine side and a human side.

He gave up all the power He had before His human birth.  He was made a little lower than the angels.  The breath of life came into Him and He became a living nephesh, a living human soul, subject to death.

Jesus said that He could do nothing Himself.  That the Father in Him, the Father did all the works.  I get that.  Jesus said that there is no one good but one, God.  I get that too.  His words are the basis of my beliefs that we have no good in us either, and we can do nothing of ourselves.  That any good in us comes only from God in us.  God does all the works.  He gives us both the will and the to do.

The night before He died, He knew that He was going to be terribly beaten, that He would be nailed to a stake and suffer for hours, then be stabbed to death.  I understand fully why He prayed to God asking, if it were possible, that another way be found other than what was to come.  He would have been a total psycho if He didn't ask for a way out.  The Spirit of God is the Spirit of a sound mind.  This Spirit doesn't do crazy things.

He prayed to the only One Who can get things done.  The Father said NO.  That was it.  The Father's word is final.  The Father got Him through those terrible trials.  Jesus stood tall, He didn't whine or beg, He didn't have a pity party.  He accepted His lot through the power of His God.  I'm proud as punch as to how He conducted Himself.

John

John,

Yes I agree with you. He was fully human. Keep in mind God never changes while Jesus does. Just like us. When Jesus said, the father is in me, I can't say nothing of myself, for myself can't do nothing ,Something like that.  I think what he said is that anything that proceeds out of him is from the Father, so whatever you hear jesus teach, you are really hearing it from  the Father speak, Not Jesus.

Jesus never said he was God, nor diid he say he was God's equal. Because if that is so, then he would have nothing at all to learn — God knows everything. Let alone, he would not have had to learn to be obedient since God ONLY is good and holy and perfect. Even Jesus didn't want you to worship him, only the Father.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Jesus had to suffer to learn to be obedient. If Jesus had to learn obedience, obviously this means that there were times in his life that he was not and he had to suffer for it to learn to become obedient. If Jesus were God would he have had to learn to be obedient?

Mar 10:17 …Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

If Jesus were perfect like God. he would not have become indignant at the fact that a man called him good. Jesus did not consider himself good, and this was not merely an expression of humility. Only God is good.

Jesus did his duty as any Son of God would do. he did very well.

Denise



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Kat

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2011, 02:42:29 AM »

This thing about who and what Christ is gets pretty complicated. Here is a section from the conference 'Who and What is Jesus' that might be helpful with this.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg38212.html ---------

"Let this mind be in you, which was [is] also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant [slave], and was made in the likeness of men"(Phil. 2:5-7).

Now here we learn a little more of what this is about. When it says “mind” it is the disposition of God Himself.  Where it says “equal with God” it is the same amount or degree and so on.  

“Being in the form of God…”  is being inherently in the form of God. Inherently, that’s an interesting word, it means possessed at birth or the inborn, right. I thought now that is interesting, that's 'before' He became man, He was by birth - inborn.  

Strong’s uses the word, He existed as a 'innate.' Existent as an innate birth, a right by birth. That is what it means, a right by or through birth. Jesus Christ was BORN. To which of the angels did He ever say, you are My son I have begotten you... as a little boy in a manger? He was His Son, 'from the beginning!' The whole idea of Jesus Christ, was to be a Son, from the beginning. Now it says.  

Phi 2:6  …thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7  but made Himself of no reputation, and took on Himself the form of a servant(slave), and was made in the likeness of man.

So this was an inborn right of birth, to have these powers. What did He do? Where it says, "He made Himself of no reputation," the KJ margin says, He empted Himself of all His privileges. I mean He is so mighty and everything, I mean you’re not going to kill Him. He has got to reduce down, to something really small, compared to what He was. He voluntarily did that, “He took it on Himself,” you see. He was made low enough to kill. It says in Hebrews, “A little lower than the angels,” so they could kill Him. How was that accomplished? He emptied Himself of everything God had given to Him. I guess God could have taken it away, but He didn’t take it away, Christ gave it up.
v
There is no doubt about it Jesus Christ now has immortality, that means He can’t die. But we are talking about a time when God ‘only’ had immortality. Where did Christ say He got His life? He got it from the Father (John 5:26).
  
But you always want to think about these things. Someone will say, ‘well that’s talking about His human flesh, you know human.’ No, I think these things are dual. These things pertain to Him ‘before’ His human flesh. You know He talked about the glories and stuff He had before (John 17:5). Did He have a glory as a human? He prayed for the glory He ‘once’ had, so did He not have any glory then? Well, He did have glory. We read that in flesh and blood He did have glory.

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

He didn’t have the glory that He had though. I mean it was much more, it was much grander. He didn’t have all that glory, because He diminished Himself.
v
So could Jesus Christ be as mighty as God and still be able to die? Not only could He, He had to. Because that’s who died. The One who spoke to Moses, is the One who died. How did He die? Now no one could have killed Him, He was too powerful. But He could lay down His life. He could do it Himself and He did. Put all the scripture together. Christ said, “I lay down My life, no one takes it from Me.” (John 10:17-18). Someone would have you believe that God said, You will die. No, He volunteered. He said “I lay down My life,” no one takes it, He volunteered. But how could He do that? He’s the Creator of the universe!  
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 10:55:28 AM by Kat »
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mharrell08

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2011, 05:52:22 PM »

John,

When Jesus said he and his father are one. I think he meant to say he and his Father think alike, think the same and is of like mind. He even said we will be one with them one day.Jesus never said he was God, or was his equal. He even say to worship the Father, not him. he always called himself a son of God like you and I will be. He is the first begotten of many.

The reason I think Jesus was fully man than popular opinion says. Like ray says, if the church teaches its probably wrong and we have to reprove all things.

The bible tells us that it was “supposed” that Jesus was the son of Joseph (Luk 3:23). It was supposed by all the people that Jesus was the son of Joseph, because he was exactly that: the son of Joseph. However, the author of Luke tells us that contrary to popular opinion Jesus was not actually the son of Joseph, but of the Holy Ghost.

Luke also tells us that Joseph’s father was HEli. However, Matthew tells us that Jacob was Joseph’s father. This seems like a contradiction.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

To make things even more complicated yet, naturally, the other gospels not in the canon say more about this which clears this up quick. HEli and Jacob were twins. It also said helio died childless. So neither Joseph nor Mary could be the child of hEli. So that eliminates Jesus qualifying as Messiah through the lineage on the side of Heli.

Actually, hardly any of the names in the two genealogies listed in Matthew & Luke match after King David. While Matthew lists Joseph as being 'begat' from Heli, Luke simply says the 'son of Jacob'. There were no Greek words to mean 'son in law' and this is most likely Mary's genealogy.


The bible tells us that Mary’s cousin, Elisabeth, was a Levite. James, the brother of Jesus, tells us that Joachim, who was a priest, and Ana were the parents of Mary.

Where in the Holy Scriptures does he state this? Or did you read of this in another ancient writing's translation?


Priests could only be Levites, and Mary’s father was a priest. So that makes Mary a Levite. Therefore, Jesus could not qualify as the Messiah through Mary’s side of the family and that also refutes the theory that Mary’s father was Heli.

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

The fact that Elisabeth was Mary's cousin makes perfect sense, seeing that Levi and Judah were brothers and their descendants would be one another's cousin.


So,The only explanation for Joseph appearing as the descendant in both genealogies, of Matthew and Luke, is that he was the physical son of Jacob and the “step” son of HEli. This is because Jacob and HEli were twin brothers. When Eli died and left no physical heir, according to custom Jacob being the brother of Eli married his widow and she bore Joseph — known as a levirate marriage.

HEli and Jacob were thus uterine brothers. Heli having died childless, Jacob raised up seed to him, begetting Joseph, his own son by nature, but by law the son of hEli. Thus Joseph was the son of both. *

It's impossible for Joseph to belong to both genealogies. This statement from you is an inaccurate theory seeing that none of the names match in the two genealogies after King David. While a brother was obligated to raise his deceased brother's family, the chances of that happening in EVERY GENERATION (which it would have to in order to support this theory) are absurd.


Joseph had two fathers as it were, Jacob and HEli, his mother being the widow of hEli. So Joseph was of the tribe of Judah. Mary’s parents were Joaquim and Ana, the tribe of Levi. Jesus’ father was Joseph and his mother was Mary. Jesus’ grandfather was Jacob who was a direct descendant of Solomon.  

According to prophecy, The messiah has to be a descendent of both David and Solomon.

A descendant of Solomon has no choice but to be a descendant of David, seeing that Solomon was David's son. The rest of this above statement is not validated in the Holy Scriptures.


Jesus came from two different royal priesthood. That can explain how he started to preach in churches and people called him rabbi or teacher.

No, Jesus was a descendant from the tribe of Judah not both Judah & Levite. Here is why Jesus could preach when and where He wanted to, and it had nothing to do with genealogy:

Psalms 110:4  Yahweh has sworn, and He shall not regret: You are a priest for the eon according to the order of Melchizedek." [CLV] (the order, as in like manner...not the genealogy)

Heb 7:11-19  Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.

For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.

For He testifies: “ You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is thebringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.


Only people from priesthoods can be called rabbi or priests.  Holy Spirit helped make it happen for Joseph an Mary. But they did have sexual relations

That makes absolutely no sense. Why would they need the Holy Spirit to 'make it happen' if the were intimate BEFORE getting married? They were only 'bethroned' (engaged) when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary. Either Jesus is the son of the Father through the Holy Spirit or the son of Joseph, but not both.


Jesus is the descendant of David and Solomon through Joseph. Mary is the descendant from the Levites

Jesus is the son of man and a Son of God spiritually. God begot Jesus at his baptism. Begotten means taken in as your parent or adopt into the family.

Don't take it from me, look it up.

What is a 'son of God spiritually'? You say it as if to be 'spiritually' something is not really true.

Jesus was not 'adopted' into the household of God.


Denise, you've brought more false doctrine/teaching into this forum than any member I can recall. And no matter how much you are refuted, you just keep coming back with one unscriptural theory after another.

If you believe in all these supposed contradictions within the scriptures, of Paul not being a true apostle, of Jesus not being the Son of God, etc then why are you here? I don't understand the desire to continually clash with everything we learn and speak of here.


Marques
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Revilonivek

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2011, 09:58:05 PM »



 You shoot down people unless it comes from Ray. You don't want to give every person a chance to explain anything unless it is something that Ray teaches. I simply shared what I know, like a group discussion, u treat me like I'm the black sheep of the group. You speak to me with an attitude. Makes me kind of feel belittled.

We come together for one purpose, to discuss what is truth. You make it sound like Ray has the absolute Truth-and everyone is wrong.  I have watched this forum change and it's scary.

This is like other churches thAt shoots down anyone who teaches otherwise from what they believe. Not giving anyone any chance to explain and you make me feel like a stupid person who is always wrong. I share what is on my heart and you shoot me down and scream spiritually, "you are wrong" and won't acknowledge it. I remember I tried to share it with my pastor what I learned from Ray, they wouldn't even read it and say it is heresy. You are doing the same thing to me. I read the history of the early fathers and what they had to say. It's pure scary what they say about the bible, what thy did from 2nd century to 5th century ad, and what history it went through, even they admit to changing the doctrines in the bible and some of them admit to the deceit. Galus, Origen, Clement of alexandria, justin martyr, st. Jerome,Tertullian,Hermas, d many others. If you don't want to read about them, then look up the  famous meeting in Nicea in 325 AD. It's scary.

 The bible use to be a lot longer than it was now. You can read it up, think for yourself and reprove every story always.  It does help to know the Jewish history and customs.  They always do the Royal genealogies thru the males and never thru the females. I am simply pointing out that jesus got his royal kingship from Joseph.

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.


1 John 5

 1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

 5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.


And that was in the bible.

Jesus is a begotten son of God spiritually. You know what I mean. Joseph is Jesus father biologically but he has the mind of the Father. As will many sons and daughter gain once the become begotten. the Holy spirit defines you. We can't just believe everything we read. We have to reprove Always like the scriptures say.


I believe everyone has the truth right and we just just abandon the present truth as we attain a higher spiritual truth. No one is wrong. We are always learning. It is written on our hearts and you know this to be true. Even if years ago, you wouldn't accept what Ray teaches until you had the ability to receive it. I realize I am not a teacher so I will leave it alone. I am sure you guys are only receptive to what Ray has to teach and what he finds. he probably teaches it better than me anyway. He is gifted. As he receives it, he will share with you guys and I'm sure you guys will be more open to it when he does. and it will be like a bomb every time, like he exposes the deceit of hell, thithing and so on. I guess I am a heretic in your eyes until it's exposed to be the Truth. Like some people think Ray is a heretic until they learn what he is saying is the truth. no one is wrong. Just how they see The truth.

Please forgive me for offending you, that is not my intentions, just hungry to share but i will shut up. Please forgive me.




Denise


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Dave in Tenn

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2011, 10:33:57 PM »

Is it too much to ask that we have a forum focused on what is taught at Bible-truths.com?  I say, absolutely not.  I won't tackle everything in your post, Denise, but I will address this:


"We come together for one purpose, to discuss what is truth. You make it sound like Ray has the absolute Truth-and everyone is wrong.  I have watched this forum change and it's scary."

Everybody who joins the forum is asked if they have read the rules.  The rules state very clearly what this forum is about and  HOW it is different from every other forum on the internet.  That is the purpose 'we came together' for.  We clearly admit that the moderators don't have the time or the wisdom to determine whether or not everyone else's thoughts are right or wrong.  We just ask that you respect the purpose of THIS forum.  We don't ask anybody--sincere seeker or religious hobbyist--to agree with everything taught at B-T.  We just ask that if you have come here to teach us, that you please take it elsewhere.

There are hundreds of websites devoted to bible-discussions.  There is only one devoted to what Ray teaches.  We don't even require that you agree with Ray...only that you take your disgreement TO Ray and not on the forum.  If someone quotes Ray, he or she is only saving you (and Ray) the effort of an email exchange.

I too have seen in my more than three years here many attempts to CHANGE the forum into a free-for-all 'discussion' group.  I KNOW that I didn't join such a forum--because I know that I would never join such a forum--and I know that if it ever becomes one, I am out of here.

The no-teaching rule is there for a good reason.  I'll admit that it's sometimes hard to discern and to enforce fairly.  We're only human.  But when it is, it behooves every member to understand why it's there.  

You're going to have to let us be what we are.  I'm not the teeny-tiniest bit ashamed of what we are.

    

« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 01:38:25 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Revilonivek

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2011, 11:04:40 PM »

Is it too much to ask that we have a forum focused on what is taught at Bible-truths.com?  I say, absolutely not.  I won't tackle everything in your post, Denise, but I will address this:


"We come together for one purpose, to discuss what is truth. You make it sound like Ray has the absolute Truth-and everyone is wrong.  I have watched this forum change and it's scary."

Everybody who joins the forum is asked if they have read the rules.  The rules state very clearly what this forum is about and  HOW it is different from every other forum on the internet.  That is the purpose 'we came together' for.  We clearly admit that the moderators don't have the time or the wisdom to determine whether or not anyone else's thoughts are right or wrong.  We just ask that you respect the purpose of THIS forum.  We don't ask that anybody--sincere seeker or religious hobbyist--to agree with everything taught at B-T.  We just ask that if you have come here to teach us, that you please take it elsewhere.

There are hundreds of websites devoted to bible-discussions.  There is only one devoted to what Ray teaches.  We don't even require that you agree with Ray...only that you take your disgreement TO Ray and not on the forum.  If someone quotes Ray, he or she is only saving you (and Ray) the effort of an email exchange.

I too have seen in my more than three years here many attempts to CHANGE the forum into a free-for-all 'discussion' group.  I KNOW that I didn't join such a forum--because I know that I would never join such a forum--and I know that if it ever becomes one, I am out of here.

The no-teaching rule is there for a good reason.  I'll admit that it's sometimes hard to discern and to enforce fairly.  We're only human.  But when it is, it behooves every member to understand why it's there. 

You're going to have to let us be what we are.  I'm not the teeny-tiniest bit ashamed of what we are.

     




Okay, you are right. I forget sometimes that this forum's only purpose is to ask questions about Ray's papers and nothing else.

I apologize. I think sometimes after a while, you forget the boundaries of this forum when it comes to studying the scriptures.

Please accept my apology.

Denise

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Revilonivek

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2011, 11:06:37 PM »

I can't speak for everyone else, but I received my magic decoder ring from the mother ship.

When I receive a message, I put on my funnel cap coated in tin foil, go outside and face in the direction of Mobile, Alabama, and chant: Ray Akbar!  Ray Akbar!

It works for me.   ;D ;D ;D

Lol, you know how to make people laugh. Thanks, I need it.
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mharrell08

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2011, 11:09:42 PM »

You shoot down people unless it comes from Ray. You don't want to give every person a chance to explain anything unless it is something that Ray teaches. I simply shared what I know, like a group discussion, u treat me like I'm the black sheep of the group. You speak to me with an attitude. Makes me kind of feel belittled.

We come together for one purpose, to discuss what is truth. You make it sound like Ray has the absolute Truth-and everyone is wrong.  I have watched this forum change and it's scary.

This is like other churches thAt shoots down anyone who teaches otherwise from what they believe. Not giving anyone any chance to explain and you make me feel like a stupid person who is always wrong. I share what is on my heart and you shoot me down and scream spiritually, "you are wrong" and won't acknowledge it. I remember I tried to share it with my pastor what I learned from Ray, they wouldn't even read it and say it is heresy. You are doing the same thing to me. I read the history of the early fathers and what they had to say. It's pure scary what they say about the bible, what thy did from 2nd century to 5th century ad, and what history it went through, even they admit to changing the doctrines in the bible and some of them admit to the deceit. Galus, Origen, Clement of alexandria, justin martyr, st. Jerome,Tertullian,Hermas, d many others. If you don't want to read about them, then look up the  famous meeting in Nicea in 325 AD. It's scary.


If this forum is so 'scary', why oh why do you continue to come back? If this is a group who truly worships an ordinary man, why would you want to be a part of it? I don't believe you truly mean any of this because actions speak louder than words, and yet, your actions show that you want to participate with this 'scary' forum.

Members, riddle me this: how come when someone comes in, to 'discuss' the truth, that if we don't agree with them, that means we're only following Ray? How many times have these so called 'truth bearers' ever said 'Oh, I was wrong' after multiple members show them their errors using the Scriptures?

Denise, I don't speak to you with an attitude, you simply don't like being refuted.


The bible use to be a lot longer than it was now. You can read it up, think for yourself and reprove every story always.  It does help to know the Jewish history and customs.  They always do the Royal genealogies thru the males and never thru the females. I am simply pointing out that jesus got his royal kingship from Joseph.

What??? His 'royal kingship' came FROM GOD! I have looked it up, it's right there in Psalms AND Hebrews as I've shown you already. It has nothing to do with his genealogy.


Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.


1 John 5

 1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

 5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.


And that was in the bible.

Denise, this is a load of crap. Not one scripture states Joseph 'begat' Jesus but we DO have a scripture that says Jesus was 'begotten' by God.

When the angel told Mary she would be with child, Mary's response was "how can this be, since I do not know a man?" [Luke 1:34]. Matthew 1:25 also testifies to the fact that Mary and Joseph did not 'know' each other until after Jesus's birth. But you said above that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations that produced Jesus. It was through the Holy Spirit that Jesus was born, not some man.

Also, how in the world would Philip know that Jesus was the Son of God? He just met him! Of course to everyone before they knew him he was 'the son of Joseph'. Joseph is said to 'take Mary as his wife' [Matt 1:24-25] which means to be a 'Father' to any children she may have. But you don't read anywhere that Joseph 'begat' Jesus.


Jesus is a begotten son of God spiritually. You know what I mean. Joseph is Jesus father biologically but he has the mind of the Father. As will many sons and daughter gain once the become begotten. the Holy spirit defines you. We can't just believe everything we read. We have to reprove Always like the scriptures say.

It sounds like you don't believe anything that doesn't fit your unscriptural beliefs. How many scriptures must you be shown? 20? 50? 100?


I believe everyone has the truth right and we just just abandon the present truth as we attain a higher spiritual truth. No one is wrong.

This is exactly why YOU DON'T LEARN! If one thinks they are always right, why would they learn from anyone else?


It is written on our hearts and you know this to be true. Even if years ago, you wouldn't accept what Ray teaches until you had the ability to receive it. I realize I am not a teacher so I will leave it alone. I am sure you guys are only receptive to what Ray has to teach and what he finds. he probably teaches it better than me anyway.

His teaching is better because it's based on the scriptures, nothing more. The ONLY thing that's drawn most of these members to this ministry are the sound, scriptural teachings brought forth. If this ministry was based simply on one man's opinion, it would have died off a long time ago


He is gifted. As he receives it, he will share with you guys and I'm sure you guys will be more open to it when he does. and it will be like a bomb every time, like he exposes the deceit of hell, thithing and so on. I guess I am a heretic in your eyes until it's exposed to be the Truth. Like some people think Ray is a heretic until they learn what he is saying is the truth. no one is wrong. Just how they see The truth.

Denise, you're simply blowing smoke...you are a heretic because you pronounce heretical doctrines as if they are true! You avoided every scripture shown to you because they contradict your beliefs. Ray doesn't do that...when you have the scriptures to back you up, you're never painted into a corner. But you seem to be and can't get your way out of it, that's why I'm on you now.

If you don't get anything out of this, at least any member who may be confused by your 'truth' will know the difference. If you don't know by now, I DO NOT LIKE WOLVES among these sheep!


Please forgive me for offending you, that is not my intentions, just hungry to share but i will shut up. Please forgive me.

If you want to be forgiven, show a forgiven attitude. Read the papers...look through the conference transcripts and bible studies...stop being tossed to and fro by every doctrine. Just because something causes you to have 'itchy ears' doesn't make it true.

This isn't the first time your 'truths' have been refuted, that should tell you something.



Marques
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: The most important question
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2011, 11:19:33 PM »

Hi Denise,

It takes time to get rid of things you learned in the church. You don't even realize these things come out. I'm sure there are things you currently know as fact that will some day seem foolish to you.

It's evident you have a lot of hard earned knowledge gained over many years of study. It's just IMO some of it is build on the wrong foundation which leads to these conflicts.

I'm happy that Ray's teaching's have brought you to this forum. I just wish you would not make so many dogmatic statements that are contrary to what most here believe.

I wish you would simply take one subject at a time and say something like "This is what I believe..." and state you case and see what others have to say. And if no one agrees with you then move on. Do not beat a dead horse.

What we do not tolerate here is blatant teaching. If everyone taught what they 'think' then this forum would be confusing for everyone and no one would learn much of anything.

If you have something to share then please try and use the approach I suggested. Just one small item at a time please.

Thanks,

Dennis
« Last Edit: July 24, 2011, 11:31:22 PM by Dennis Vogel »
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