Hebrew/Jewish perspectives revealed!

[jong]

Hi all,

I believe if we can appreciate the Jewish insights in the bible, a lot of 'mysteries' can be understood.

I will post a few of these soon which I have researched. Please feel free to share with other BTFers in this thread also.

Jon

[jong]

On the Lord's return...

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

========================================================================================

The Jewish high priest's nickname is also known as "the thief in the night." This comes about from when the high priest would make surprise visits in the middle of the night to the temple to see if any of the watchmen were sleeping. If they were caught sleeping the High priest would use his torch "flash light" and set the clothes of the sleeping watchmen on fire. The watchmen would then wake up, see themselves on fire and rip their clothes off fast and run out of the Temple naked.

Jesus is our High Priest and thus is also "the thief in the night" and we are commanded to watch out for the Lord's return and to be eager and ready for it!

[Samson]

On the Lord's return...

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

========================================================================================

The Jewish high priest's nickname is also known as "the thief in the night." This comes about from when the high priest would make surprise visits in the middle of the night to the temple to see if any of the watchmen were sleeping. If they were caught sleeping the High priest would use his torch "flash light" and set the clothes of the sleeping watchmen on fire. The watchmen would then wake up, see themselves on fire and rip their clothes off fast and run out of the Temple naked.

Jesus is our High Priest and thus is also "the thief in the night" and we are commanded to watch out for the Lord's return and to be eager and ready for it!

Jong,

Thank you for the above Gem ! I really appreciate this information. Well, We learn something everyday. That reminds Me of the Camel going through the eye of the needle. The entrance to the Gate into Jerusalem was considered: " the eye of the needle."

Thanks Jong, keep Um coming ! Kind Regards, Samson.

[lilitalienboi16]

wow that is awesome! Thank you jon!!

[ericsteven]

The following might shed light for some on the verse concerning the camel and the needle.  Just another way to look at it:

The KJV says (Matthew 19:24): "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." 

The Greek, reads "καμηλον" (kamélon) which is the accusative form of "καμηλος" (kamélos). In Greek, this word means "camel" and sometimes can mean "pack animal." However, if we take a look at its Aramaic equivalent, the word used is "gamlo," the only word in Aramaic to describe a generic camel. But as Aramaic evolved, it picked up new idioms and meanings. Gamlo is a perfect example. Aramaic speaking peoples in Galilee fashioned thick rough ropes from camel's hair that had an acceptable tensile strength. After a while, it became to be known as - you guessed it - gamlo. For example, the same thing has occurred in modern-day society. A product or item came to be referred by the first name used regardless of what brand it is. Millions of Americans still ask for a "Kleenex" instead of a tissue. The word for "razor" in Brazil is "Gillette." And an "IBM Computer" still refers to any Windows-compatible machine. We've just encountered an idiom unfamiliar to the Greek translators of an Aramaic original Matthew.

Although it doesn't really change the parable, it does grant us insight into how in tune with his audience the Messiah actually was. Bar-Bahlul, a 10th-century lexicographer, says of gamlo' in his Aramaic dictionary: "'Gamlo' is a thick rope which is used to bind ships." Recall that Jesus was speaking to fishermen and tradesmen. The meaning of gamlo as "rope" seems much more appropriate. It also helps us derive a deeper meaning from the parable as stated to the young man who followed the Law but refused to give up his wealth to achieve everlasting life. The parable in Matthew 19:24 immediately followed the young man's question about achieving everlasting life.

In the parable, the only way a rope could have been threaded into the eye of a needle is to have unwound every strand of the rope until there's only one strand thin enough to make it through. The meaning intended here is that one would have to strip away all the trappings of this world in order to find the way to the Kingdom of God. I think this explanation, rather than confusing us with a rather large dromedary and a very small needle eye, provides a much richer and deeper meaning worthy of the Lord Jesus and very much to the point.

[Duane]

The "needle's eye"  was built in the wall of Jerusalem that was made just large enough fora soldier in full armor to slip out &get back safely.  the idea was that soldiers could leave the safety of the city, fight the enemy and return without endangering the whole city by opening the front gates and exposing the city to the enemy.
A camel could get through the "needle's eye" with great effort by inching through on it's knees--a very tight fit.
So therefore, a rich man can enter heaven with great difficulty (tied to his worldly possessions).
However, we changed "needle's eye" to "eye of a needle" to American understanding meaning it is virtually imposible for a rich man to get into heaven--picturing a camel and sewing/darning needle.
Dad learned this during a trip to Jerusalem where he saw the "needle's eye" in the wall and it's true meaning was explained by a Jewish tour guide.

[jong]

The sign of Yeshua/Jesus...

Matthew 12
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."
39  But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
41  ...and indeed a greater than Jonah is here

===================================================================================

The name Jonah means Dove. Dove is a Hebrew idiom meaning: "Righteous and Pure." The sign of Jonah, the dove, was upon Yeshua when he was  baptized in the river Jordan. (Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.")

The Scribes & Pharisees were looking for the Messiah to come, and many were blessed to see this Sign showing them that Yeshua was a Righteous person, a Dove!  Even Yeshua knew this sign was unmistakably His. Yeshua Himself speaks that no SIGN was to be given, but the SIGN of Jonah, the Dove. So a Sign was given that day at the Jordan, at the beginning of His ministry, and the Sign of Jonah would be given one more time at the end of His ministry. And NO OTHER SIGN would Israel be given apart from the Sign of Jonah.

Jonah was like a forerunner of "Yeshua". Like Jonah, Yeshua also came with a MESSAGE from God/Yah, and that message was  the same, "Shuvah - Repent  before the judgement falls."  

In the garden of Gethsemane, before the agony of the stake, before the SINS of the world were placed on Jesus, He could have run like Jonah did, but Jesus, the GREATER Jonah did not!  

The SIGN of Jonah, the Dove, is a SIGN of the Lord Jesus.

[jong]

The three days and three nights in the heart of the earth...

Jonah 1:17
Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Matt. 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

=================================================================

A Jewish day usually starts at Sunset and ends on the following Sunset, which is modelled after God/Yahweh's creation of the first day. (Genesis 1: So the evening and the morning were the first day.)

Yeshua ate the Passover/Last Supper with His disciples the night before His death. (Luke 22:15 "And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer". Yeshua was crucified at 9:00 am the next day (Mark 15:25 " It was nine in the morning when they crucified him.") and He died at 3:00 pm. on the same Passover afternoon, (Mark 15:34 And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice.....). He was then buried by Joseph prior to sunset.

On Sunday morning, the women could not find Him as He had been resurrected the previous afternoon, on SATURDAY. The Messiah was resurrected at the exact same time of day, in the late afternoon. Thus He was buried a full three days and three nights earlier; on WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON. Indeed, Passover, Nissan the 14th, that year, A.D. 31 fell on a Wednesday.

Yeshua was crucified on a WEDNESDAY (the 14th day of Nisan) at 9:00 am.(the same time and day that the Jews were told to slaughter a Passover lamb and smear the blood on the door.) Yeshua died on that same WEDNESDAY at 3:00 pm. and rose again on SATURDAY (the 17th of Nisan) at 3:00 pm. just hours before the Feast of First Fruits began. He arose the exact same time of day He died, 72 hours later, as stated in Matt.12:40.

Yeshua, the Lord of the Sabbath, arose from the dead on the Sabbath, the seventh day of the Jewish week, Saturday!  Good Friday & Easter Sunday are simply paganistic holidays that do not bring any glory to our Lord!   

[mharrell08]

Email Reply from Ray regarding '3 Days and 3 Nights in the 'heart of the earth' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11616.0.html):

Dear Urban:

You are a pretty sharp guy to catch that! I will write a separate paper on this subject in the near future, or I may incorporate it into my paper on "The Lake of Fire."

I changed my view, because as of three months ago, I realized I was teaching heresy regarding these "three days and three nights." I spent tens of hours on this subject a couple of months back, when I should have been writing on my paper. A friend believed that "three days and three nights" could mean any part of three days and three nights. I said that "three days and three nights" could not possibly means "Friday night, Saturday day, and Saturday night." That's only ONE day and TWO nights.

I calculated EVERY CONCEIVABLE way possible to have Christ resurrected early Sunday morning while it was just beginning to dawn, and yet, go backwards "three NIGHTS and three DAYS" and arrive a time and day that would fit all of the other statements regarding the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection--the Passover preparation day, the hurrying to bury Christ because of impending weekly Sabbath, that that Sabbath that year was "an high or holy" day in addition to being the weekly sabbath, etc., etc.

Anyway, I found that IT CANNOT BE DONE!  IT WON'T FIT! No matter how anyone configures the Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread, weekly Sabbath, etc., IT CANNOT BE DONE--it will not fit. I spent hours and hours just on the Scripture in Luke's account where the men going to Emmaus were accosted by our Lord, and one of them remarked, "And beside all this, TO DAY IS THE THIRD DAY since these things were done" (Luke 24:21). But I found one translation that said, "Besides all this, IT HAS ALREADY BEEN THREE DAYS since these things were done."  I thought I was really on to something here. NOT!

I obviously prayed to God to give me understanding. After one of my intense sessions with the Scriptures regarding this matter, I went to the kitchen for a drink, and while on my way God turned on a light bulb in my spirit. I had FAILED MYSELF TO DO WHAT I HAVE BEEN TEACHING OTHERS.  I was thrilled with the answer--God gave me the answer.

I called Michael, and informed him that "he was RIGHT after all."  By combining ALL of the Scriptural statements regarding Christ's crucifixion, He HAD to be buried on Friday evening and raised Sunday morning! And Michael was delighted to know that he was right after all. But my next statement floored him. I then told Michael that I WAS RIGHT ALSO. THAT JESUS CHRIST REALLY WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH!

Well, Michael was now bewildered--HOW CAN THAT BE, THAT'S A CONTRADICTION!  I told him that it is no contradiction, we were both right and we were both wrong. Jesus Christ was buried Friday evening and rose Sunday morning, and yet, was also "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Two things I neglected to follow: 

Jesus Christ ALWAYS, ALWAYS spoke to the multitudes in public in PARABLES. Parables are not LITERAL, neither do they lie. I neglected to treat this teaching of Jesus as a "parable."

It NOWHERE SAYS that Jesus would be "DEAD for three days and three nights." I just ASSUMED that is what was meant by the phrase "in the HEART OF THE EARTH."

I'll just give you the gist of the answer, as my time is limited right now. Jesus called "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH," "the SIGN of Jonah."  Now then, if Christ was to be DEAD for the exact period of TIME of three days and three nights, How then could that be "the sign of Jonah?" JONAH WAS NOT DEAD AT ALL!!! Jonah went through 'A LIVING HELL' if you will! Besides, Jesus was NOT buried in the "HEART" of the earth, He was buried in an ABOVE THE EARTH TOMB! Maybe twenty inches or so on the other side of a big stone. 

"In the HEART OF THE EARTH" is a parable showing the unbelievable agony of the human spirit and flesh that Jesus would go through LEADING UP TO and INCLUDING the time in the tomb. And those three days began on the PREPARATION FOR THE PASSOVER (John 19:14), seeing that Jesus, HIMSELF, was to BE THE PASSOVER!!!

And don't forget the AGONY IN THE GARDEN when Jesus SWEAT BLOOD!! No one will ever know what torture He endured those "three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH." BEFORE the beatings and crucifixion we read this: 

"NOW is My SOUL TROUBLED [Greek: DISTRESSED, IN TURMOIL!]; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour: but for his cause came I unto THIS HOUR" (John 23:27).

The "heart of the earth" is the very DEPTH OF THE FLESH. The flesh of man is "of the EARTH, EARTHY" Paul tells us.

Again, thank you for your keen observation.


Remember the forum rules: No Outside Teaching/Preaching


Thanks,

Marques

[Kat]

Hi jong,

Ray has actually addressed the theory of Christ being crucified on Wed., here is the email.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7225.0 ---------------


Dear Morgan:  I will make some COMMENTS  in your email:

   > Ray, I read the e-mail question from "Urban" about the passage in Mt.12:40,
   > where you are saying that that passage is NOT speaking of the length of the time
   > Jesus was buried. (Wrong!) Furthermore, in your response to "Urban", you say
   > that you "changed your view" because you realized you were teaching "heresy".
   > Then you go on bringing up all your questions, about how "it does not fit" for
   > Christ to be crucified on Friday, and rise "early on Sunday morning", (as you
   > put it) and be three days and nights in the grave, (Duh ? that's second grade
   > math,but it has nothing to do with understanding the Bible)

   COMMENT:  It may be "second grade math," but it IS that the Church has taught for hundreds of years, and I was merely showing how originally I couldn't fit the "three days AND three nights" into a Good-Friday-Easter-Sunday-Morning scenario, and it has everything to do with "understanding the Bible." Later in your email we will take a look at YOUR failure to comprehend "second grade math."

   > Then you go on to say that you "calculated it every conceivable way", and you
   > supposedly prayed about it and walla,

   COMMENT:  No, Morgan, I did NOT "supposedly pray about it," I actually DID pray about it.

    when you went to the kitchen and got
   > something to drink ,(God ?) turned on a light bulb,etc.,etc.. (really ? Then how
   > did you still end up with an un-biblical and erroneous answer?)

   COMMENT:  I did not end up with "an unbiblical and erroneous answer." Your interpretation of these Scriptures is "un-biblical and erroneous," as we shall see.
   >
   > I shall give you the correct biblical answer to this your dilemma, but first
   > let me point out that all your "calculating", and your trying to "make the
   > scripture fit", your trying to make the scripture "say something other" than it
   > declares, as in your attributing the three days/nights to supposedly be
   > beginning with the "preparation" of the Passover, (speculative nonsense) all
   > this and your supposed response to
   > one called, "Michael", with your un-biblical,(and stupid) answer, clearly
   > indicates that you are not only a false teacher, but absolutely inept in the
   > scriptures. Having said that, here is the correct biblical answer to your
   > "spiritual third grade" dilemma.

   COMMENT:  Well at least I must be making progress, as we have now graduated from "second grade math" to "spiritual third grade."
   >
   > First of all, Matt.12:40, in the KJV, is an accurate prophecy by Christ, of how
   > long he was to remain in the grave,

   COMMENT:  You have not one Scripture to back up that unscriptural statement. Let's read Matt. 12:40--

   For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

   I see "whale's belly," and I see "heart of the earth."  I do not see where it says "So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights IN THE GRAVE."  Do you? No, of course you don't. YOU CHANGED THE WORDS.  First you state that this is an "accurate prophecy by Christ," and then you CHANGE THE WORDS OF CHRIST.  So how are we to trust an interpretation when one CHANGES THE WORDS from what Christ said to totally DIFFERENT WORDS?

   Morgan, your slandering comments against me are a little over-the-top, don't' you think, when you attribute to me the following:  "stupid," on the level of "second grade math," and on the spiritual level of a "third grader,"  "wrong," one who only "supposedly" prays,  gives "un-biblical and erroneous answers," is in a "dilemma,"  "trying to make the scripture say something other than it declares," "speculative nonsense," "your un-biblical, (and stupid) answer," "a false teacher ... absolutely inept in the scriptures," "lack of understanding this, stems from 'carnal minds' (like you)," "how wrong your supposition has been on this singular subject," "you are likewise wrong, on every point," "your heresies are affecting and contaminating my spirit," "You are certainly, and absolutely,a FALSE teacher, and a very confused individual."  But so far, we have only determined one fact, and that is that YOU CHANGED THE WORDS of our Lord.

    and it was to be a "sign" to the disciples.

   COMMENT:  Oh really?   And do you have a chapter and verse on that statement? I think not.  Once more, let's read the Scriptures: "Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

   Now I see "Scribes and Pharisees" asking for a sign, and I see "an evil and adulterous generating seeking after a sign," but I do NOT see, "it was to be a sign to the disciples," do you, Morgan?  Well, do you?  And so again, YOU HAVE CHANGED THE WORDS "Scribes and Pharisees," and "an evil and aulterous generation" into the "DISCIPLES" of Jesus Christ.  The sign that the disciples remembered with Jesus rose from the dead was:

   Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

   Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. [Not a word about the "sign of Jonah."]

   Luk 24:8 And they remembered his words..."

   No, Morgan, they did not remember the "sign of Jonah," which was a "parable" to the evil and adulterous generation, not a sign to "His disciples" as you falsely contend. Jesus always taught to the crowd, masses, multitudes, and gatherings of Scribes and Pharisees in parables, and in parables ONLY (Matt. 13:34). Therefore, the sign of Jonah was a parable, and a parable that you do not understand.

 And the passage of Lk.24:21, is likewise accurate,and confirming of fact.

   COMMENT:  What Luke 24:21 "confirms," is that your whole theory on this subject is totally unscriptural. We will come back to this verse a little later.
   >
   > Secondly, there is No suggestion in the scriptures that Christ was crucified on
   > a Friday ! The lack of understanding this, stems from "carnal minds", (like
   > you) trying to teach spiritual things.

   COMMENT:  Actually there is Scripture showing that Jesus was crucified on a Friday.  Later........
   >
   > The Passover, according to Exod.12, and Lev.23, was to be commemorated on the
   > 14th of Abib.

   COMMENT:  No, that statement is not correct either, Morgan.  They kept the Lamb until the 14th when it was killed at the going down of the sun, in the evening, and was then eaten, celebrated, THAT NIGHT, which is then the 15th of Nisan, not the 14th:

   Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it IN THE EVENING.

   Exo 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

   Exo 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh IN THAT NIGHT..."  That night being the 15th of Nisan, not the 14th as you falsely state.

   > The second feast, the feast of "Unleavened bread",(a seven day feast) was to
   > commence on the 15th of Abib, (the day after the Passover) and the first and the
   > last day, were to be a "High Sabbath".

   COMMENT:  NO, Morgan, they did not eat leavened bread at Passover. They already put the leaven out BEFORE Passover, not after Passover.  When will Christians come to understand that Passover WAS the first day of unleavened bread, and was therefore a Holy Day.

   The third feast,the feast of "first fruits",was to be held four days AFTER the
   > PASSOVER. (on the 18th of Abib)
   >
   > Thus we see Jesus was crucified on a WEDNESDAY,

   COMMENT:  Excuse me, but just where did you make that quantum leap? WHERE do we "see Jesus was crucified on a WEDNESDAY?"  I don't see that anywhere?  Where does it say they ate the Passover on a Wednesday? You made that up.

    and died between the 9th and
   > the 12th hour, just as prescribed in the O.T., (hence Paul's testimony about
   > Christs death and Resurrection "according to the scriptures", in 1.Cor. 15:3-4)
   > The Next day, (Thursday) was the feast of "unleavened bread".(the 15th of
   > Abib, Exod.12) this was the "High Sabbath", spoken of in John.19:31.
   > The next day,(Friday) was a regular working day, on which the two Mary's
   > went and purchased ointments to embalm Christ.
   > The third day,(Saturday) was the regular Sabbath. and Christ arose sometime
   > after "sunset" on Saturday, or before "the dawn" of Sunday.

   COMMENT:  Wow! Could take hours to sort all those unscriptural statements out. "The next day..." was NOT Thursday.  And, NO, Thursday was NOT "the 'High Sabbath' spoken of in John 19:31.  Once again, if all else fails, let's read the Scripture:

   Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

   Now then, do you see in this Scripture: "(for that THURSDAY was an high day)?" NO.  Do you see in this Scripture:  "(for that SABBATH day was a SABBATH day)?"  NO.  Do you see in this Scripture: "(for that HIGH DAY was an HIGH DAY)?"  NO.  You don't like to pay close attention to the Scriptures, do you Morgan?  Let's read it once more:  "For THAT sabbath day was an high day."

   Why would John tell us that THAT SABBATH was a certain day?  John doesn't say "for THAT DAY was an high day," does he?  No he doesn't. John doesn't say that "Thursday was an high day."  No,  John says "For that SABBATH [not just that "day," but that "sabbath"--it was ALREADY a sabbath day, not just any day of the week, like "Wednesday." No, that weekly SABBATH DAY, was ALSO AN HIGH DAY] was [in ADDITION to being a Sabbath day] was [also] AN HIGH DAY."
   >
   > And so we see, that the biblical account, as given in the KJV, is absolutely
   > correct,and Lk.24:2 confirms it. (Three days and three nights)

   COMMENT:  It doesn't "confirm" anything YOU had to say about it! Now back to Luke and the verse that you think confirms all your unscriptural statements regarding the Passover:  Luke 24:1--"Now upon the FIRST day of the week..." That would be SUNDAY.  Late Sunday AFTERNOON as it was coming toward evening, two disciples went toward Emmaus when Jesus met them on the road. One of them explains to Jesus what had happened the past few days. Being downcast, he states that:

   Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this,  TODAY  I-S  THE THIRD DAY since these things were done.

   WHAT "things" were done?

   THESE things:

   Luk 24:19 And he said unto them, WHAT things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

   Luk 24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered  him to be  [1] condemned to death, AND have [2] crucified him.

   Those two things ONLY are the "THESE things" mentioned in verse 21. And so, late Sunday afternoon was "the THIRD day" since, "the chief priests and our rulers delivered  him to be  [1] condemned to death, AND have [2] crucified him."

   What does that do to your unscriptural Wednesday crucifixion, Morgan? The Scriptures count beginning with the day OF the Crucifixion, so Wednesday is the FIRST day, Thursday is the SECOND day; Friday is the THIRD day; Saturday is the FOURTH day; and Sunday would be the FIFTH DAY.  But the Scriptures clearly state that late Sunday afternoon was "the THIRD day" since Jesus was condemned and crucified, not the FIFTH day which it would have to be if your explanation had an once of truth to it. Am I going too fast for, Morgan? I will write a paper on this one day and explain ALL the Scriptures on this subject, proving that "heart of the earth" does not mean "dead in the tomb."

    > Furthermore, on the question, if Christ should have eaten the "Passover" with
    > his disciples the night before (Tuesday night) Christ was in "his full right" as
    > the Passover as well as Sabbaths, begin at sunset the day before. >
    > I have written this to you, not so much to enlighten you, as to show you how
    > wrong your supposition has been on this singular subject. I submit to you,sir
    > that you are likewise wrong, on every point of the little bit that I have
    > examined of your writing so far. Not that I intend to read any more,as your
    > heresies are "affecting" and contaminating my spirit.
    >
    > You are certainly, and absolutely,a FALSE teacher, and a very confused
    > individual. (I am the same missionary, that sent you an e-mail of rebuke
    > yesterday)
    >
    > Morgan Sorensen.

    COMMENT:  Do you really want me likewise go through all of the unscriptural nonsense you sent to me the other day and post it along with this email on our site for the whole world to see?  Give it up, Morgan. You don't understand the truth of anything you have written me about.  You are only making a fool out of yourself.
    Sincerely,

    Ray

[Dennis Vogel]

Remember the forum rules: No Outside Teaching/Preaching

Thanks,

Marques

Some of the quotes here are from other teachings on the Internet.

[G. Driggs]

A Jewish day usually starts at Sunset and ends on the following Sunset, which is modelled after God/Yahweh's creation of the first day. (Genesis 1: So the evening and the morning were the first day.)

Dont know about Jewish days, but I know what Jesus says as expounded by Ray.

But first a couple verses to consider. From chaos to order is God's plan for the universe and all of humanity.

Gen 1:5 And calling is the Elohim the light "day, and the darkness He calls "night." And coming is it to be evening and coming to be morning, day one.

Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone should be walking in the day, he is not stumbling, for he is observing the light of this world."
Joh 11:10 Yet if anyone should be walking in the night, he is stumbling, for the light is not in him

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9130.0.html

The word day is yom, spelled y-o-m, like home. Yom is almost never, ever used in the scriptures.  You'll find day like 2000 times, but almost never ever does it mean 24 hours or what some would call a solar day, from sunset to sunset and again sunset to sunset, sunset to sunset. Almost never is it used that way. They think it is, but it's not.

If they would follow the scriptures closely, they would have avoided this from time memorial. Even in the King James, it's not hidden.  People say, 'Well, it's talking about literal days, literal 24 hour days.'  There's no such thing as a literal 24 hour days.

First of all, you don't find 24 hour days anywhere in the scriptures.  Sometimes there is a period that has reference to 24 hours, but inevitably it will always then say day and night.  So you know it's both periods of time.  When it says day, it means day, not night.
"God said let there be light, and there was light" (Gen. 1:3).  We're going to see that's not the best translation.  It should not be "and there was," because that gives the indication He said it and there was. That's not what it says in the Hebrew, He said it and 'it came to be' or 'it did come to be.' That is the way it should be translated and that's the way your better translators will have it.  The Concordant has it "and coming is it to be so."  It's not in the indefinite, it's in the past tense.  Either 'it came to be so' or 'it did come to be so.'  Not at that instance though, but it came to be so, a period of time. 

Now, "and God saw the light that it was good and God divided the light from the darkness and God called the light day.[/b]"  There it is.  Now why don't they believe it?  They would've avoided all this stuff that's been going on for hundreds of years, about were the days literal and was the earth created just 6000 years ago or 4.5 billion years ago, you see.

Gen 1:5  And God called the light day, the darkness He called day?  No, because I read that wrong.  The darkness He called 'night.'  Now there are two different things and that's easy to see. What is the day?  The light is the day.  The dark is not the day, the dark is the night.
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I'll  continue on with the meaning of 'yom.'
Young earth creationist say, whenever yom is used with an ordinal or cardinal number, like first, second, one, two and so on, that it ALWAYS represents a 24 hour day... always.  Not true.

Zec 14:6  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

"...that day," this is referring to a certain period of time I reckon, like the day of the Lord or in that day.

Zec 14:7  But it shall be one day (yom)...

Same words used in Genesis 1.

v.7 ...which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec 14:8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

"In summer and in winter," you have whole seasons "in that day," it says "one day."  So much for that unscriptural nonsense.  So no, there is a cardinal - ordinal number, "one day" and it is going to be for seasons, that "one day."

Had God meant evening and morning to have meant day and night, without even using the words day and night, He could have used the sunsets or something.  You know from sunset to sunset was the second day and the third day and so on. 

But He uses this evening and morning and this has more profound meanings.  We already read in this paper that this heretic said, 'no where else in the Bible do we find evening and morning, it's only here and it must represent a 24 hour solar period of time.  No where else in the Bible is this used.'  Actually there are three times, I'll show you one.

Psa 90:1  A Prayer of Moses the man of God. Lord, Thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
v. 2  Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God.
v. 3  Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
v. 4  For a thousand years in Thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

It interesting that just these couple of verses brings in all this, the creation of the heavens and earth, a thousand years are as a day and so on, it's all in there. 

v.5  Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.
v. 6  In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

What do we have here?  This is what it is telling us in Genesis.  Morning signifies order, light, birth, growth, progress.  At night things get dark, gloomy, they become fizzy, you can't see them anymore.  It's chaos to cosmos. 

Here He is using the evening and morning exactly into that context.  In the morning they are like grass, but in the evening they are cut down.  The morning is positive, growth and light.  The evening it's cut down, darkness and death.  They say, 'no where else in the Bible these words are used.'  Well you just read it didn't you.  Did it mean sunset?  That a person is born at sunrise and he dies at sunset?  Well yea, it can be used that way, but it could represent his whole life, not 24 hours. 

So here you see the symbolism of evening and morning portrayed perfectly.  One has to do with progress and order and light and life.   The other has to do with darkness and death.  So we do have an example as to what these words mean, don't we.
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I hope you'll read these articles in their entirety if you haven't already.

G.Driggs

[jong]

Hi All,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I know Ray & others have also been searching & understanding the 3days/3nights issue, just like me

In Jesus' own words.....
Mark 9:31
For He taught His disciples and said to them, "The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed,He will rise the third day."

Matthew 17:22-23
Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up."

Matthew 20:18-19
"Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again."

Luke 9:22
"The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."

Mark 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Even the chief priest and pharisess alluded to Jesus' words, when they told Pilate after the crucifixion "Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise.' (Matthew 27:63).

The word "and" is usually used to depict a continuing sequence of events. As such I believe the Lord actually meant to say He would be in Sheol (of the earth) for 3 literal days (days and nights), just as Jonah was in Sheol (of the seas).
(Jonah 2:2-3 "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice. For You cast me into the deep, Into the heart of the seas...)

[Kat]

Hi Jong,

The word "and" is usually used to depict a continuing sequence of events. As such I believe the Lord actually meant to say He would be in Sheol (of the earth) for 3 literal days (days and nights), just as Jonah was in Sheol (of the seas).

But Jesus was not in sheol (grave) for 3 'literal' days and nights.  Ray has explained that there is no way to fit 3 days and 3 nights into the time frame from when Jesus actually was dead, it can not be literal, but it is a truth in that He was in the heart of the earth for that exact time.

We have a FAQ board and here is the link to the answer to this enigma.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11616.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[jong]

Hi Kat & all,

Please consider some further viewpoints...

*******Removed due to no teaching rule**********

As a fellow seacher for truth, I would really love to hear Ray's insights into the above,
God bless all,
Jong


A reminder to the no teaching rule.....

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS

Also a read of this would be helpful.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html

This forum is for those of "like mind" to fellowship.  If you are not of like mind that is fine just don't post your beliefs, or debate here.  The moderators are not here to ferret out the truth of any doctrine or "feeling" that the members may have.

The moderators are not here to go through your teaching and decide if you are right or wrong (you may well be right), when we see these posts we will delete them, and you may be asked to stop posting these views, if you continue we will do what is necessary to protect the forum.  Isn't there enough that we can agree on?

Craig

PS  Jong I am not removing your post because I think you are wrong, your views may be right.  It is just that this post is not the purpose of the forum and the rules are in place for a purpose.