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[Deborah-Leigh]

Amen John! ~ 

[Kat]

1Thes 5:19  Do not quench(G4570) the Spirit.

G4570  
to extinguish (literally or figuratively): - go out, quench. (Strong's)

You might say that the Spirit is like a fire within as "our God is a consuming fire" (Heb 12:29). We certaily don't want to "quench the Spirit/fire." So maybe you can feel 'spiritually dead' if you let the flame die down real low, so to speak.

2Ti 1:6  For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands, (ESV)

2Ti 1:6  For which cause I remind thee to stir up the gift of God that is in thee through the putting on of my hands, (YLT)

2Ti 1:6  For this reason I remind you to keep alive the gift that God gave you when I laid my hands on you.

So we need to "keep alive, stir up and flame the fire of the Spirit within. Here is from the Bible study 'Can We Lose God's Spirit?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html --------------------

Now here is the point I want to make, spirit is life and life is spirit. Now back to verse 15.  

Can we lose out… well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you. Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before.  

1 John 3:15  Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal (eonian or age lasting) life abiding (the Greek is “staying or “REMAINING”)  in him.

So the Greek is staying or remaining. Now if you just read that without all the background that I’m giving you, then you get the feeling that, well he won't be given God’s abiding life. No, he already has it. The only way something cannot stay in you or not remain in you, is if it’s in you. Do you follow that? It’s in you.  

He’s not talking to Barbarians here or infidels, he’s talking to the congregation who have the spirit of God.
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Luke 6:46  "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?"

Boy that puts a damper on a lot of these Scriptural lies, doesn’t it. 'I believe the Lord, so I’m saved.' Is that right?  Is that why you are stealing from your employer… Is that why you are still cheating on you wife… Is that why you are damning God’s name? In other words, when He says, “why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and not do the things which I say?” He saying; if you call Me Lord Lord and don’t do the things I say… then it’s meaningless, forget it, you might as well curse My name.
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Philippians 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
 
Is there a point in time where you say no matter what I do I’m going to be in the former resurrection, because I have this and that promise and pledge? Was Paul lying when he said, “If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.” Meaning I’ll do everything that I know of or can think of to be sure that God is pleased with me. “By any means,” Why would he say that if it’s a done deal?  

Notice it, how do we come up in the likeness of His resurrection? “IF” at the beginning of the verse (Rom 6:5) “IF we have been planted together in the likeness of His death.” We know what baptism pictures, it pictures dying to yourself, dying to the evil, carnal, lustful things that are bad about human nature. You die to that and that’s what baptism pictures.
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But there’s that big ‘IF’ again. For IF this, then that. 'But what if not this?' Well if not this, then not that. This is really elementary stuff. But I mean somebody has got to point it out, I understand that, I’m not poking fun.  
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Luke 6:35  But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest:

Is there something to do? Well yes, it just told you what to do. It’s always something to do. You check all the Scriptures with all these promises and stuff.  
Of course somebody is going to say, ’well Ray I thought it was all about grace.’ Well grace is what causes you, inspires you, makes you do these things. So then you receive your reward that comes with it. Remember in Titus…

Titus 2:11-12  For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us…

‘Oh, I thought He just gave us everything free.’ No, it TEACHES you to live godly in an ungodly world. It teaches you, it trains you, it instructs you, it educates you, it means all those things, look up the Greek.

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with Me, to give every man (I don’t see a period here) according as his work shall be.

It is always something to do, always something to fulfill.

Rom 8:13  For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but IF (that little word again) you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
v. 14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

That’s how you do it. There it is!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[cjwood]

kat(hy), you always bring such healthy food to the table.  food i need.  thank you dear sister.

claudia

[G. Driggs]

What's with all this gloom and doom stuff about "Spiritual Death".

Is this idea even in the Scriptures?  If so, what are the two or three scriptural witnesses that establishes this "truth".

A few parables from Jesus.

Joh 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Mat 8:21  And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Luk 15:24  For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Not that I'm right or your wrong, but to me these speak of spiritual death. Unless of course Jesus was speaking in literal terms.    What other death could Jesus be talking about besides a literal or spiritual death? I mean He does not say the word "physical" ,"literal" or "spiritual" before the word "dead" in any of these parables, so how do we know?

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2Co 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

God saves everybody!  Everybody.  No one gets left out.  That's what a loving God does.  The Scripture says that death will be the last thing destroyed.  But it will be destroyed.  So when you no longer have death, then all you have left is life.  Be happy.  Let the party begin.

I second that amen from Arc! BYOB!

G.Driggs

[JohnMichael]

What's with all this gloom and doom stuff about "Spiritual Death".

Is this idea even in the Scriptures?  If so, what are the two or three scriptural witnesses that establishes this "truth".

God saves everybody!  Everybody.  No one gets left out.  That's what a loving God does.  The Scripture says that death will be the last thing destroyed.  But it will be destroyed.  So when you no longer have death, then all you have left is life.  Be happy.  Let the party begin.

Death is called sleep by Jesus.

Mat 9:24  He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Luk 8:52  And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

Rev 1:17  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.
Dan 8:17  So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Dan 8:18  Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

However, you are absolutely right. God will save everyone, and the consummation of the ages will definitely be a most joyous event.

[Kat]

This is from Ray article 'Hades and the Second Death' that explains about the second death, which I think is the flipside of spiritual death.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm -----------------------------------

THE SECOND DEATH

It's time for another one of those enigmatic Scriptures that sound very simple, but are difficult to harmonize with all Scriptures compare "spiritual with spiritual" and believe Jesus when He tells us that His "words ARE spirit" (John 6:63). Here is that enigmatic statement:

"And as it is appointed unto men [Gk: 'anthropose'--human, mankind] once to die, but after this the judgment"

This Scripture is all-encompassing, universal, and applies to every human who has ever lived. All humanity must die once, and after that death, they must be judged.
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Now get ready for a real revelation. There are two mysteries in Heb. 9:27 when applied to God's Elect:

what and when is the "ONCE to die?"

what and when is the "after this JUDGMENT?"

We will take up the Elect's Judgment part of this verse first.

We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."

For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see. But there is still an enigma about this verse that we will cover a little later.

GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH THROUGH JUDGMENT

As a young man I used to think, horrors of horrors, God is going to throw people into a lake of fire which will be their SECOND death! It all seemed so frightful and final. Little did I know that we are all destined for some form of this same lake of fire/second death/judgment. Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.

It's all in Rom. 8:13:

"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

Paul puts people into two options (based on God's foreknowledge):

OPTION ONE is for the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because "it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).

OPTION TWO is for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).

The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!
(check the link to see the many Scriptures that Ray uses to prove this point.)
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But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.

Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."

The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[GaryK]

What's with all this gloom and doom stuff about "Spiritual Death".

Is this idea even in the Scriptures?  If so, what are the two or three scriptural witnesses that establishes this "truth".

God saves everybody!  Everybody.  No one gets left out.  That's what a loving God does.  The Scripture says that death will be the last thing destroyed.  But it will be destroyed.  So when you no longer have death, then all you have left is life.  Be happy.  Let the party begin.

John,

I’ve found 4 times on the BT site that Ray speaks on "spiritual death".

To answer your questions, it's enough........at least for me......... to trust it’s scripturally sound.

Peace to you.

gk


“
The Lake of Fire - Part X
THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN

So let’s drop the grudges we might have inadvertently harbored against our first parents thinking that they ruined our lives by their sins. As for me, I can’t wait to meet Adam and Eve, up close and personal—they are kin, you know? And don’t think for one second that they won’t be in the Family of God—I guarantee you the Scriptures say that they will, albeit by way of the purifying spiritual pond of spiritual fire, which is the second spiritual death.

V
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Thank and praise God that one day the most dreaded and painful things in the universe will be NO MORE:

"And God shall wipe away ALL TEARS from their eyes [no, there will be NO ONE in a fabled Christian hellhole of terror with tears running down their fire-scorched face for all eternity]; and there shall be NO MORE DEATH [not a first death, nor a second death, nor a spiritual death, nor any ‘death’ whatsoever, ‘the last enemy being ABOLISHED is DEATH,’ (I Cor. 15:26)], neither SORROW, nor CRYING, neither shall there be a ANY MORE PAIN: for the former things ARE PASSED AWAY" (Rev. 21:4)!


The Lake of Fire!
PART IV
UNDERSTANDING SPIRITUAL THINGS

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but AFTER this the JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27).
Notice that "judgment" comes after this death, and not before. We already learned that JUDGMENT is upon the house of God NOW! Each individual Christian in every generation is judged NOW, in THIS life, BEFORE he physically dies! And so the "death" that all men must partake of before judgment is SPIRITUAL DEATH. Notice:

"And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, STAND before God" (Rev. 20:12).
 
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May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL! Parables are NOT literal, that’s why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon? Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?" I speak as fool. Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23). SPIRITUAL DEATH! What must happen AFTER we spiritually DIE? "JUDGMENT!" The spiritual DEAD must be JUDGED. Does judging CORRECT the spiritually dead sinners? Yes it does. That is what the parable of the Prodigal Son is all about. God’s "ways and means" ALWAYS WORK!

[John from Kentucky]

O.K.  I get it.  I see the analogy.  Thanks.

I am always careful when I do not see a specific statement in the Scriptures.  I never recalled seeing the words "Spiritual Death" in the Scriptures.

One reason I do not believe in the "Rapture" is because I never saw that word in the Scriptures.

One reason I do not believe God is a "Trinity" is because I never saw that word in the Scriptures.

One reason I do not believe man has an "Immortal Soul" is because I never saw those words in the Scriptures.

My mind runs in a simple path.  I normally prefer to see a scriptural concept actually named in the Scriptures.

[mharrell08]

I agree that 'spiritual death' is taught from the Scriptures, but I don't think it applies to what anyone has been talking about. GK originally spoke of being 'spiritually dry' and everyone responded in agreement by describing how they don't feel inspired or uplifted all the time. That feeling is to keep us humble, but again, does not describe what spiritual death is.

[DougE6]

FWIW I have found when I am feeling spiritually "dry" that when I give to others then often the dryness goes away. It might not be immediate, but it goes away.  One time during a very heavy rain storm a man asked Mark Twain "think it will stop?" Twain replied, "It always has"

I think these times of dryness are important. We can really examine ourselves to see what we are, when we are missing His Presence. Speaking for myself, when you are full of the spirit it is easier to obey and to feel spiritually OK, you need to be reminded of how small and weak you actually are and how much you do need Him.  If you have no thirst for Him, then you are not one of His. In human relationships we say "absence makes the heart grow fonder" Possibly this is true as well, in the spiritual relationship, we must not ever take God for granted.  Just as lovers eventually always reunite, so God and His chosen ones ALWAYS eventually reunite(I mean in a tangible feeling way, obviously God never actually ever leaves or forsakes us)

It may be a barren desert that the potentially spiritual mature all need to cross, to get to the land of promise.  Are we destined to be spiritually mature? Will you serve Him, will you pour out your heart to Him on others behalf, will you live righteously cause you love Him, will you forgive and love your enemies, even when you are dry? How easy it is to serve Him when you feel His presence. Because you are constantly rewarded.  But if He is NOT rewarding you, then I think serving actually shows more character than when you serve Him and He is making Himself totally known.  There is much we can learn from both being full of the spirit and feeling completely dry.  God knows I would not be able to stand it, even for the smallest moment, if He ever really left me. Even that thought terrifies me.  I need him for every breath and for my peace.

[Pini56]

Hello all,

I agree with Douge6. When we start to lay down our lives for others and forget about ourselves is when the spiritual dryness, I Believe, goes away. I am totally alone in this world, physically I mean, and the Word tells us not to hide our lamps under the table but to put it on top of the table so that everybody can see it. (paraphrase). How do we do that in the real world. The way I do it is to go tenpin bowling. I bowl three leagues a week as well as on Sunday. On Sunday I travel all over South East Queensland and occasionally Interstate. In this endeavour my lamp shines so that everybody can see it. In doing this I have made many friends because the light attracts them.

A case in point. This is what I mean. I joined a league and after league I would stay behind and have dinner all on my own at first, then as the weeks went by other people started to join me. Now there is a whole group of us having dinner together. Because I am a 200+ average bowler and I have a good knowledge of the game I coach some of them as well. I give of myself in this endeavour and do not charge them. But in doing this I get into situations where I am able to talk about the love of God and the salvation of all. This is the whole point of the exercise. Recently a man asked me to join his team. So I did. One night we got talking and he said there is something different about me, which is why he asked me to join his team in the first place. I then started to talk about my life and why I am the way I am.

I haven't gone into a lot of detail because it would take too long. In summing up, I give of myself in every way possible so that I may be an example of the love of God in this dark world. I am courteous at all times on the lanes and this is refreshing to most people.

The way I see it love others and get into situations where this may occur. When people see that your love is genuine they get attracted to it and then you can witness to them which in turn changes lives because what you have is what they start to seek.

I hope this helps you. Peace. Regards, Geoff

[sunsetdramaking]

Hi Lauri,

was wondering if He is near, why don't i feel Him? If i live in Him and His spirit dwells in me, how come i don't somehow 'feel' it, or sense it or know it? Are we suppose to 'feel' different somehow, if God dwells in us?

You know I have wondered about this as well, thinking about how the Holy Spirit is in us. Well it comes into our mind, it's manifested in the way we think and of course the change there is very profound. Since it's not a physical thing you can't actually feel it in your body. But I do think you realize when it's indwelling, I mean the changes in behavior would be very significant and noticeable. With the Holy Spirit indwelling your whole way of thinking, your attitude changes, you would be constantly moving away from the carnal and towards the spiritual.

Php 2:5  For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus,

Mat 7:20  Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
v. 23  meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
v. 24  But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
v. 25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I guess it is a gradual process and the changes are more noticed when you look back to how far you have come.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

(emphasis was mine in post above)

   Ya know, I feel the greatest moment I had "spiritually" was when I stumbled on Ray's site long ago and so many heresies were washed from my heart and mind....that and when I shared it with my brother at first and he resisted, skeptical as so many others are that some guy on  a website called "bible truths" could actually be expousing such a thing, but it didn't take long (I thank God) for him to see/feel the truth of the teachings and I can honestly say, that although sin is still a major struggle in both of our lives and we both fail on a regular basis, we have never had a clearer or stronger perspective than what we have now.  I've personally become far more aware of the negative things/attitudes I embrace, even if my "flesh" hasn't got the full message yet.  I pray that it does, I pray that goes sees fit to take the throne of my heart soon...the "man of sin"there is getting less welcome as the days go by.

- Brett