I was just pondering this question: Did God our father really intend for all this pain and suffering?
Yes,Gods intention for mankind to suffer was most certainly according to His will.
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.Email reply from Ray.http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#suffer [Ray replies]
Thank you for your email and comments.
I will briefly go through your comments:
You said, "...you [that's me] feel that God is to BLAME for all the suffering mankind experiences." Well, I would say "blame" is a very poor choice of words to describe what I believe regarding this matter. Blame denotes being WRONG or doing BAD or SINNING. God NEVER sins! A sin is a MISTAKE, a MISSING OF THE MARK, a FALLING SHORT of the ideal, whatsoever is not OF FAITH, and LAWLESSNESS.
God is not to BLAME for any of these. God is, however, responsible for EVIL and SINNERS, and everything else in this universe, seeing that it was He Who created it.
It does no good to hide one's head in the sand and pretend that God has nothing to do with EVIL. I heard Billy Graham teach the whole world from the national cathedral after 9/11 that, "God is not the author of evil." But of course, Billy Graham doesn't use the Scriptures for his authority, but rather the unscriptural traditions of men:
Isa. 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and CREATE EVIL; I the LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS."
God most certainly IS the creator of EVIL!
Contrary to the pagan and unscriptural traditions and heresies of Christendom, God IS responsible for ALL, because "ALL IS OF GOD" (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:36, II Cor.5:18), Etc.
You can't quote a Scripture that states that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and therefore conclude that God is opposed to anyone ever dying. God Himself makes WAR IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Have you never read ALL of the Bible:
"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not EVIL AND GOOD?" (Lam. 3:38).
"...an experience of EVIL hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Translation).
"Or has not the potter [GOD] the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, on for DISHONOR?" (Rom. 9:19-25).
"...I [GOD] will bring EVIL from the north, and a GREAT DESTRUCTION" (Jer. 4:6).
"...Hear, O earth: behold, I [GOD] will bring EVIL upon this people..." (Jer. 6:19).
"And he said, I [the lying spirit] will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets... and He [GOD] said, ...GO forth, and DO SO" (I Kg. 22:22).
"He [GOD] turned their heart to HATE HIS PEOPLE..." (Psa. 105:25).
"...Thus said the Lord; Behold, I FRAME EVIL AGAINST YOU, and devise a device against you..." (Jer. 18:11).
"O LORD, why has THOU MADE US TO ERR from thy ways, and HARDENED OUR HEART from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).
"...so shall the Lord bring upon you ALL EVIL THINGS, until he have destroyed you..." (Josh. 23:15).
"...shall there be EVIL in a city, and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?" (Am. 3:6).
"Thus saith the Lord of hosts... go and SMITE Amelek... DESTROY... SLAY both man and woman, INFANT AND SUCKLING..." (I Sam. 15:2-3).
These may not be verses for Sunday school children, but they are Scripture for the mature.
God "SCOURGES every son that He receives." If you know anything about "scourging" you know it is quite severe. Job's afflictions were QUITE severe, our Apostle Paul's afflictions were QUITE severe.
God created EVIL, and God uses EVIL. But, He uses it for a GOOD AND HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS PURPOSE! "Evil" has nor moral bias. Evil is only a SIN when men use evil against other men. When God uses it, it is NO sin.
I did not say that Satan said: "Lord God, may I have permission to beat the hell out of Job?" I was merely showing that that WAS the implication of the discussion. Being "permitted" to do something is the same as "permission" to do something; there is no difference. Now, notice your OWN words: "Then Jehovah...PERMITTED Satan to test Job's integrity to the limit."
Jesus Christ is not a man to be compared with us, as when Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness.
You suggest that I feel that God "...is to blame for the rebellion in Eden! That could not be any farther from the truth. The bible says that Jehovah's ORIGINAL PURPOSE...." Again, I don't like your choice of words, "blame." Let's say "responsible." And that IS the truth.
You mention God's "original purpose" suggesting that that purpose has now been thwarted and has forced God to go to plan 'B'! Now that is nonsense! NO ONE thwarted God's original plan. God is not going to "Plan B." Contrary to all Christendom, God IS NOT RUNNING A DAMAGE CONTROL CENTER FROM HIS THRONE IN HEAVEN!!!
No one. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE will ever thwart God's original plan! It is blasphemy to even suggest it! God has always known the beginning from the end. How and why, pray tell, would God have provided a Sacrifice "SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (before Adam and Eve were ever created), if God did not plan for Adam and Eve TO SIN and disobey and eat of the forbidden fruit, and thereby have need of a SAVIOUR?
We have to have a little sensibility about us. God Himself possesses a knowledge of good and evil. God wants SONS. Sons posses the attributes of their Father. It was necessary for us to learn of good and evil. They are both in the same fruit tree, as there can be no knowledge of good without a knowledge of evil. All of life's knowledge is a contrast. We cannot appreciate health unless we see sickness, we cannot appreciate food until we get hungry. When cannot know what light is unless we experience darkness.
Your theory that man would have been happy in the Garden for all eternity if he hadn't eaten of the forbidden fruit is nonsense. He didn't really know that ANYTHING in the Garden was good--he had never experienced EVIL! It's that simple and it's that profound. God is truly WISE!
God has designed men to be spiritually WEAK. Men go against God's WILL--God planned for men to go against His will--it was His original INTENTION. But...BUT, absolutely NO ONE HAS EVER OR EVER WILL, GO AGAINST HIS INTENTION! Romans 9:19 should read, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood HIS INTENTION?" And the answer is, "absolutely NO ONE"!
You casually mention the Serpent, Satan the Devil in the Garden. Where did HE come from? Who created HIM? How come HE was permitted to destroy Adam and Eve? Where was GOD during all this? Christians put Almighty God on the level of human beings. With the same weaknesses, the same stupidity, the same inept plans, etc., etc. God IS NOT A MAN! These things did not "just happen" in the Garden without God's KNOWING or without God's PERMISSION, or without God's INTENTION that they happen!
In your closing paragraph you use all caps stating: "GOD DOES NOT CAUSE SUFFERING!" I'm sorry, that statement is just not true. Job was a perfect and upright man, and yet God TOLD SATAN TO INFLICT HIM WITH UNIMAGINABLE SUFFERING!
Read it again!
David suffered all the days of his life. Paul suffered like no man who has ever lived (II Cor 11:22-28). Jesus personally said how severely Paul would have to SUFFER (Acts 9:16). Jesus Christ SUFFERED (Mat. 16:21). And it "PLEASED GOD TO BRUISE HIM" in that suffering of death on the cross!! It is through MUCH trials and tribulation [suffering] that we enter the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:23).
And even more, Peter tells us that for the very PURPOSE OF SUFFERING we were called! "For for this were you called, seeing that Christ also SUFFERED for your sakes, leaving you an example [or copy], that YOU SHOULD BE FOLLOWING UP IN THE FOOTPRINTS of Him..."
Just one more: "So that, let those also who ARE SUFFERING [why? for what purpose? by Whose hand?] according TO THE WILL OF GOD commit their souls to a faithful Creator in the doing of Good" (I Pet. 4:19). It is "according to the will of God" that we suffering. I don't mean to be overly critical of your comments, but they just aren't Scriptural.
May God guide you into His wisdom and perfect will for you life.
Sincerely,
Ray
Hope this helps some.
Peace...Mark