Intrusive thoughts...

[Ian]

Hello,

I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?

Sometimes I will have thoughts about harming others. I know a lot of people have this problem.

It is difficult making the thoughts go away. Sometimes when I have thoughts, I get anxious and try not to dwell on them, leading me to think about them more.

Where and why do people have these thoughts?

I was considering... "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).

But there are some people who get really upset, even suicidal about certain thoughts. If they all come from within the heart, why would someone be upset about it?

Some insight would be appreciated...

[Deborah-Leigh]

Thoughts are part of the human condition.

Observing thoughts is the witness, the neutral observer.

What you resist, persists.

The neutral observer, notices without condemnation or approval. That is what neutral is. Neither positive nor negative, just present.

In the presence of neutral observation, thoughts can come and go...and they do. The more you notice your thoughts in the neutral place of simple recognition, the more peace comes of understanding acceptance without attachment....

Have you ever noticed a thought come and go. Or, noticed what you are thinking...just watch for your next thought...when the light of noticing is on....thoughts seem to shy away.....~ 

From a Biblical perspective, consider deeply what is said in Heb 4 : 7, Again He sets a DEFINITE DAY, [a new] TODAY, and give another opportunity of securing that REST.....9 So then, there is still awaiting a full and complete Sabbath REST reserved for the [true] people of God....

Arc

[Deborah-Leigh]

2 Cor 6 : 2 For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee; behold, NOW is the accepted time, behold, NOW is the day of salvation....

NOW is present, not future or past in time but NOW is now...~

That's Biblical.

Arc

[Dave in Tenn]

Hello,

I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?

Sometimes I will have thoughts about harming others. I know a lot of people have this problem.

It is difficult making the thoughts go away. Sometimes when I have thoughts, I get anxious and try not to dwell on them, leading me to think about them more.

Where and why do people have these thoughts?

I was considering... "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).

But there are some people who get really upset, even suicidal about certain thoughts. If they all come from within the heart, why would someone be upset about it?

To a great degree, you've answered your 'where and why' question...thoughts do come out of the hearts of men, as Jesus said in your quoted passage.

The question of why someone would be upset about it confuses me a little.  I'm not sure why someone who has thoughts about hurting someone should NOT be upset about it.  

He can take comfort in knowing there is something he can do about it.

Php 4:8,9  As to the rest, brethren, as many things as are true, as many (things) as are grave, as many (things) as are righteous, as many (things) as are pure, as many (things) as are lovely, as many (things) as are of good report, if any worthiness, and if any praise, these things think upon; the things that also ye did learn, and receive, and hear, and saw in me, those do, and the God of the peace shall be with you.

Here's just a couple of 'things' that fit that description:

He should know that he is not alone in these evil thoughts.  The details may differ, but the heart is the same, and we can't wear any 'religious' garb(age) which will cover up that fact.

He should know that Jesus did not come to call the 'righteous' to repentance, but sinners.  He came to save sinners.  And unlike the church's theologies teach, he didn't come to save them from eternal hell-fire, but from their sins.  If he's disturbed by these thoughts, he should know that this is a necessary part of him being saved from even having them.

If he believes the Gospel, he knows that the end for all of sinning humanity is reconciliation with God.  And if he believes that whole-heartedly, he should be comforted by the fact that he is already overcoming the worst 'evil thought' about harming somebody--having them deserve and recieve never-ending torture in a fabled hell-fire.

He should think about those 'things', and many others, that will replace his old thoughts and create a new heart.

He should also understand that Sovereign God doesn't expect him to be any different AT THIS MOMENT than he IS, because this is the way God has caused him to be.  But just like the blind man healed by Jesus, He caused him to be this way for a greater purpose--to be healed to the Glory of God.

Sorry for preaching.  I'm no stranger to what you are talking about.  This is how I keep from sinking back into despair and have hope.  I hope that helps.

[mharrell08]

It is difficult making the thoughts go away. Sometimes when I have thoughts, I get anxious and try not to dwell on them, leading me to think about them more.

Where and why do people have these thoughts?

1 Pet 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour

John 8:44  You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

John 10:10  The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Thoughts are part of the human condition.

Observing thoughts is the witness, the neutral observer.

What you resist, persists.

The neutral observer, notices without condemnation or approval. That is what neutral is. Neither positive nor negative, just present.

Arcturus, people do not possess a 'neutral observer':

Rom 8:5  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit

Eph 2:2-3  ...you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others

One's thoughts are either on the things of the flesh or things of the Spirit...to 'observe' also means to think or have thoughts, so those thoughts would not be neutral.


Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

Arcturus, people do not possess a 'neutral observer':

I did not say that people POSSESS a neutral observer. To say such a thing is parallel to believing that Jesus or God is something to GET or to POSSESS!

Just because you can not see the sun in the night, doesn't mean it is not there....~

If you disagree with something and if it doesn't go against the teachings here in BTF, then by all means ask, if you want to understand, for clarification. So as not to throw the Topic off course, the best place to ask is in the PM lines. ~

Back on topic, intrusive thoughts can appear in all kinds of experiences. Just watching a movie can present intrusion or violation of what so ever things are lovely...Just watch TV news for instance. ~

Arc

[Kat]

Hi Ian,

1Pe 5:8  Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Satan is spirit and invisible, he seeks to influence our minds. We have to fight to keep evil thoughts out of our mind so that they will not take root and develop into sinful words or deeds. But this is not a battle that we must fight alone, Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit indwelling is there for us.

Col 1:12  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
v. 13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son:

We need to guard our thoughts, if we do not nip it in the bud it can ultimately lead to sin. So when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting. If it is hard to get a thought out, seek God earnestly for help (pray works wonders for this), even having just a little change to stop those wrong thoughts is a step in the right direction. So always strive to cast aside wrong thoughts and keep up the fight to overcome and Satan will be force to leave you alone.

James 4:7  Therefore submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

It is indeed a spiritual battle of the mind we are in.

2Cor 10:3  For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
v. 4  For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
v. 5  casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

Here is a email on this subject.

http://bible-truths.com/email16.htm ---------------------------------------------

Last night, my daughter was having scary thoughts and asked me how to keep from having thoughts like that. I read 2 Corinthians 10:5 to her and she asked me what it means. I told her I would find out.

I myself am wondering what it means and how to take every though captive to the obedience of Christ. My wonderful daughter has a very fertile imagination which I know Satan can take advantage of.

Ruth

[Ray Replies]

Dear Ruth:

Thank you for your email and question.

II Cor. 10:5 is one of those ALL-ENCOMPASSING Scriptures that cannot be realized by following some magic formula or repeating some prayer, etc. Bringing every thought into the captivity of Jesus Christ requires a LIFETIME of overcoming and living by God's Spiritual Laws. Jesus also told us to "Be ye therefore PERFECT." Again, this is not something that is accomplished by reading the Scripture or following some short-term magical formula. It requires a lifetime of obeying God and living through our many trials and tribulations.

However, I do not wish to let you stranded with an impossible task for your daughter. The Scriptures also say that "As a person THINKS IN HIS HEART, so is he."  Therefore THINK ABOUT GOOD AND PLEASANT THINGS. Even dreams "Come from an abundance of business" or whatever we think about most. Therefore, again, THINK ABOUT GOOD AND PLEASANT THINGS.

Notice what Paul himself tells us:

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, THINK ON THESE THINGS. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me [Paul], DO; and the GOD OF PEACE SHALL BE WITH YOU." (Phil. 4:8-9).

I'll leave it up to you to put these terms into words your daughter understands.

God be with you,

Ray

[GaryK]

He should also understand that Sovereign God doesn't expect him to be any different AT THIS MOMENT than he IS, because this is the way God has caused him to be.  But just like the blind man healed by Jesus, He caused him to be this way for a greater purpose--to be healed to the Glory of God.

Careful Dave, taking the --BT FOR DUMMIES-- approach like this..........could............ cause a quelling of nasty human rut-grounded guilt emotions that could then give rise to recognizing baby steps in the journey of comprehending that we are quite normal, as normal goes, in God's eyes, even though our sinful nature bests us at times.   

I.......would......just come right out and say a slight breakthrough of understanding that we will grow spiritually as God sees fit and no amount of kiniption fits on our part causes the slightest stir in his plan, but if I did that I would be admitting my kiniption fits are pointless.     Can't have that, can we?   

Soul medicine, there-of.

But enough of my guilt.

Sorry for preaching.  I'm no stranger to what you are talking about.

Nor am I, so you just keep on preaching preacherman.

[Ian]

The question of why someone would be upset about it confuses me a little.  I'm not sure why someone who has thoughts about hurting someone should NOT be upset about it.  

Dave, I think you misunderstood that part of my question.

I'm talking about people who have bad thoughts, but are upset about having them (i.e., they're not trying to think these thoughts, they just come in their mind). Some people have anxiety after a bad thought, and dwell upon it (because they're so upset), causing them to think about it more.

For example, suppose it was taught in Christian circles that even thinking of murder is an "unpardonable" sin. Everyone who read or heard this statement will instantly think of murder.

[Dave in Tenn]

He can still start in the same place by 'thinking about' whatsoever things are TRUE.  His belief that even thinking of hurting someone is the 'unpardonable sin is simply NOT TRUE.

That's not the end of it, but it's a good place to start.

[judith collier]

I think Kat's word "aware" and Arcturus' "observe" are really the same thing!
Always be gentle with yourself because you have a simple human mind and these things happen. There was a great Christian writer who said, "if all you do in an hour of prayer is to gently
observe those thoughts and then attempt go back and focus on God, you will have done much"
Praying is not only difficult at times, it takes much discipline and practice with the mind. Eventually you will succeed in overcoming these thoughts in a flash.
judy

[mharrell08]

Arcturus, people do not possess a 'neutral observer':

I did not say that people POSSESS a neutral observer. To say such a thing is parallel to believing that Jesus or God is something to GET or to POSSESS!

Just because you can not see the sun in the night, doesn't mean it is not there....~

So Jesus is this neutral observer you speak of?

The neutral observer, notices without condemnation or approval. That is what neutral is. Neither positive nor negative, just present.

Whoever you're describing above, it's still not true:

Rev 2:2-4  I [Jesus] know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love

Jesus approves of the church's good works and condemns it's bad ones.

If you disagree with something and if it doesn't go against the teachings here in BTF, then by all means ask, if you want to understand, for clarification. So as not to throw the Topic off course, the best place to ask is in the PM lines. ~

When a member posts questionable comments in a thread, it's only fair for that member to explain themselves within the same thread. A PM doesn't do any good for the membership as a whole. To imply that Jesus is 'neutral' is false and that point should be made clear for all to understand.



Marques

[octoberose]

OK, I'll ask. What is a PM and how do you make one?
Despite the controversy I found this a very important discussion.
I sometimes think crazy, nonsensical things. Am I to think this is sin? Or, do I redirect my thoughts and not dwell on the craziness or the despair or the lie, so that I do Not sin? God knew we needed to be directed to think lovely, true thoughts because we will all fall into lies if we are not diligently seeking God.

[Joel]

Hi Ian
If I was a psychologist I would blame it on one of your parents, or something like that, but I like calling a spade a spade.
Paul tells us to put on the WHOLE armour of God, that we may be able to withstand the WILES of the devil.
Wiles=sly trick, or beguile.

He tells us what the armour is in Ephesians 6:10-18
Notice in verse 17 the helmet of salvation protects the head where the mind is. don't forget about the rest of the armour, don't want to be found naked.

Joel

[lderr]

Ian,
I have been in such a situation. And I will be again. But in the absence of freewill we know that these thoughts come from a thousand different influences and not necessarily from our conscious effort. 
What caused these influences that cause the thoughts?
Rather, Who caused these influences?
Since I don't know what causes them I can hardly know how to stop them.  But I know someone who can.
When these thoughts enter my mind and I know I want to be rid of them, I ask God to take them away.  That's His job, not mine.  I go on to other business. 

But that's me.
Lewis

[mmijares]

Correct me if I am wrong, but...

Isn't it "neutral observer" us weighing things whether a thought, a plan, or a feeling, is good or bad?  Some sort of a conscience.

Scenario: Sometimes, I wish I have a gun so I can use it to intimidate someone who wants to try to bully me when circumstance arises.  But a part of me says that I should not since it might cause a string of problems if accidentally or intentionally I happened to use it.  Isn't this what others coined "neutral observer"?

I may be wrong (again).  Just like what I once thought what a free will is.

[mharrell08]

Correct me if I am wrong, but...

Isn't it "neutral observer" us weighing things whether a thought, a plan, or a feeling, is good or bad?  Some sort of a conscience.

The human being hasn't been born who can 'neutrally observe' itself. What you're describing is judging our works, which only the Spirit of God can/will do. But even this is not neutral:

1 Cor 3:13-15  ...each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss...

Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire

Good works are refined, bad works are burned away. You can't judge something to be good or bad and yet be neutral. That's why the comment of a 'neutral observer' makes no sense whatsoever. Jesus said He's rather we be cold than to be lukewarm [Rev 3:16].


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Kat]

Hi octoberose,

I sometimes think crazy, nonsensical things. Am I to think this is sin? Or, do I redirect my thoughts and not dwell on the craziness or the despair or the lie, so that I do Not sin? God knew we needed to be directed to think lovely, true thoughts because we will all fall into lies if we are not diligently seeking God.  

Well we are to be "bringing into captivity every thought" (2Cor 10:5), so I think we are to always direct our thoughts towards lovely and true thoughts. I do not see it a sin if we have wicked thoughts pop into pur minds, but we can not let those kind of thoughts remain. We are now under the new convenant and it goes beyond the letter and to the Spirit, what's in the heart and thoughts.

1Sa 16:7  But Jehovah said to Samuel, Do not look on his face, nor on his height, because I have refused him. For He does not see as man sees. For man looks on the outward appearance, but Jehovah looks on the heart.

It's not okay for our minds to be filled with rubbish, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and are to be developing the mind of God.

Php 2:5  For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,

1Co 6:17  But he being joined to the Lord is one spirit.
v. 19  Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, whom you have of God? And you are not your own,
v. 20  for you are bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

Here is an email that has a bit about this in it.

http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm -----------------------------------

[Ray Replies]

God treated Adam and Eve in the same way that the Law of Moses treated Israel. There were numerous laws given to Israel, and the breaking of some of them involved the penalty of death. Now as long as no one actually committed the act that was illegal, no penalty was enacted.  One could look at another man's pretty wife, just as long as he didn't touch her or commit physical adultery with her.

God treated Eve the same way. As long as she kept her lust of the flesh and lust of the eyes and pride of life TO HERSELF, God did not punish her. But once she committed an actual act of law-breaking (in this case disobey the law that God had enacted regarding eating the forbidden fruit), then the PENALTY CAME IN TO PLAY.

Today, under the New Covenant, we are guilty for merely THINKING a sinful thought. Now it is a sin to just "look upon a woman to lust after her" even if one doesn't ACTUALLY commit adultery with her. It is a thing of the SPIRIT, and not just the letter.

God be with you,

Ray
                                               

[River]

Arcturus,

Your posts were refreshing to see. There are those who offer blankets to the cold striken and then there are those who offer a statement of " I hope you warm up." Yours was a blanket. Many thanks for what you said. 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Saying something is not true doesn't make it, not true. ~

Paul, in his ministry, refuted his opponents. Refute means rebuttal with evidence.

As the rules here in BTF prohibits teaching, ...I can only offer the following observation. ~

ANY ONE can do a Google search and some basic investigation into what science has discovered in the last 2000 years to bring you up to speed. ANY ONE can come to understand more than you think you know. Iron sharpens iron. A sharp blade will test the mettle of any weapon formed against it.

All of us, at some time, will  feel the pang of fear to not go where proverbial angels fear to tread. By example, does anyone one  think Ray Smith got his insights by going along with the crowd? Does anyone  think Ray  is embarrassed that his cancer might perhaps make fools of some medical practitioners before the great I AM Presence of God, who alone makes the wisdom of the world foolishness. Ray will be dead when God says so, and not a second before God says so!

What's that got to do with this Tread ~ Everything! Death might be the most intrusive thought, carrying the wages of sin, that a human being can experience. This thread is not meaningless or trivial. It raises a real finger on the pulse, issue for us all.

At Hospice, I saw a man who's body was withered and beginning to blacken in the appearance of deaths inevitable decomposition, yet his spirit and mind and soul, remained. I was given the assignment to read from the bible to Jack. Whilst so doing, he lifted his gnarled hand up, to indicate to me to stop after a hour loud reading from Matthew. Boy, was I grateful! My voice was getting strained.

Jack beckoned me to get close to him to hear a request.

His face was black and blue at his temples and his mouth showed a blackened tongue. Veins were visible in his temples as he looked like he had died ages ago.

The nursing sister had already prepared me for the shocking sight of Jack, and told me he was an unusual case indeed. He simply didn't want to die and was hanging on. I didn't think that Jack might have been terrified or scared out of his skull.

I bent over to Jack and put my ear to his mouth, closing my eyes to listen intently.

"Pray for me, please...." rasped Jack

A cold shiver shot up from my ankles right up my back and before my closed eyes I could see, as in a dream, a vast and dark abyss. On the far side, stood a figure that appeared to be Jesus as he might appear in an artist's impression. Dressed in white and with open arms, looking at Jack laying on his death bed.

"Trust Jesus!" were the words that shot out of my heart, soul, mind and very being.

"Trust JESUS!" I said again with a voice so strong it didn't sound like my own and certainly went beyond what was appropriate in the small room reverberating to my loudness. And again...

"TRUST JESUS!"

That was it...

Jack replied that he had heard the prayer of his Gethsemane...that night he died.

So whenever a bad thought comes...an invasive or frightening mental battle with thoughts of sin, death or we may feel or see that abysmal dark presence before our minds that we know we cannot get across because they are too powerful, too vast and too overwhelming to pass over...as in thoughts that will not let us go, that cling to us in fear, threat and ugliness....then...that's your lot...said the clay to the potter...

Our thoughts will die, will pass, and will not bring us into the depths of the dark abyss as we....Trust Jesus.

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace AS YOU TRUST IN HIM. Romans 15: 13

I don't break rules here and I sure appreciate what Ray has uncovered regarding the whole truth, the real truth and nothing but the truth about the malpractices of Babylon.

The following Scripture for me, rightly or wrongly, best invites and is encouragement of the neutral stance: Rev 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Your kindness helps encourage and is kind and loving soul River!

Another stance on this way of thinking is held in full view in the teaching Winning Souls for Jesus at http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
It is not my job to teach or convince anyone though uninvited opinion has been offered to me to get my own Blog.

So here's telling you all...I SO appreciate your kindness, consideration and insight into sensitive expression of mature empathy so thank you so very much for letting me let off a little steam, mist, tears....and joy...thank you!

God bless you always everywhere all the time!

I have nothing to add to the experience of unwelcome thoughts and feelings as described as the heading of this Thread...Intrusive thoughts...As humans we suffer.

All my earlier to do lists, I have found are meaningless. I have no, to do list and no judgment nor condemnation to offer either.
Jack and I were appointed a most humbling experience and blessing and I sure do know this, that Jack is a friend I very much look forward to rejoicing with in the Kingdom of God prepared for us ALL. Who knows, Jack might have been a real piece of work in his life time, that at his end, drew a mere stranger, to pray over him...who knew nothing of his past or his personality either! Boy oh boy, we are going to laugh if it's true he might have been a real so and so! I was the sole soul praying aloud at his death bed on the eve of Jack....Trusting Jesus as he may never have experienced doing before!

Pray for one another...ah...there might be a new, what to do...for a, to do list, not to give out, or recommend or advocate, but to practice...ah...yea..THAT'S it!~ 

God  BLESS  us all, each and every one.

Arc