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Author Topic: Intrusive thoughts...  (Read 12307 times)

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mharrell08

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2011, 08:12:09 AM »

Saying something is not true doesn't make it, not true. ~ :D

Paul, in his ministry, refuted his opponents. Refute means rebuttal with evidence.

As the rules here in BTF prohibits teaching, ...I can only offer the following observation. ~ :)

ANY ONE can do a Google search and some basic investigation into what science has discovered in the last 2000 years to bring you up to speed. ANY ONE can come to understand more than you think you know. Iron sharpens iron. A sharp blade will test the mettle of any weapon formed against it.


Deborah, for as much as you have just written, you could have simply explained your previous comments re: neutral observer. And the reason why you didn't has nothing to do with the forum rules...the forum rules didn't stand in your way when you brought this up in the first place, so I don't see why they would stand in your way now.

Ian asked about negative thoughts that come to him, and you replied about a 'neutral observer' who neither approves or condemns. When confronted about the identity of this 'neutral observer' you beat around the bush using many words except the ones to explain your comments. Then you want to put the onus on 'ANY ONE' else to search for the meaning of your very own words.

What good is it to use many lofty words and phrases, to speak in poetic terms, but yet have no meaning at all? And how can you be credible for sound advice when you avoid any and all questions regarding your comments? It is like the Shakespeare quote: 'full of sound and fury, signifying nothing'.

A little truth will go a lot farther than a lot of empty talk.



Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2011, 09:22:03 AM »



There is no "fury" in my words...your Shakespear quote misses the mark.~  :D

My simple explanation will have to surfice, that being that neutral neither lends itself to either, good or bad, positive nor negative influence.

The contribution made to the thread comes from my heart to help assist the pain and experience of nasty thoughts that just don't let up, and the more you try the more they strengthen.

By the way, I love lofty words, poetry and beautiful symmetry in thought made visible through the artistic construction of ideas held in sentences, chapters and verses. I can not apologise for not impressing you, Marques. It just isn't my ambition to do so. ~ :D

The beautiful Scripture of whatsoever things are lovely is certainly a Truth of great significance and depth.

Arc

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Akira329

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2011, 11:11:18 AM »

Hey Deborah,
I will make a few comments about your comments
My simple explanation will have to surfice, that being that neutral neither lends itself to either, good or bad, positive nor negative influence.
Everyone knows what neutral means? How in any way does this describe Jesus and his work??
You have yet to explain your comment.
Rev22:11 is not an excuse for being a neutral party in anything?
Rev 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

That in bold is judgment of those people in Rev 22:11!
The unjust will no longer be unjust
The filthy will be made clean
The righteous will be refined
The Holy will be as pure as gold
These are not neutral works of an neutral observer.
Its funny you say these things because there are many in the church who believe God has no hand in the life of anyone. But stands as a neutral observer awaiting his opportunity or invitation to act or to be an inclusive part of someones life.

Quote
The contribution made to the thread comes from my heart to help assist the pain and experience of nasty thoughts that just don't let up, and the more you try the more they strengthen.

Just because you contribute doesn't make your comments helpful.
Many here contribute from the heart but all their sayings don't edify the body of believers here.
Nothing against them personally but not everyone has helpful words for everyone and just because you felt compelled to comment doesn't make your comments any more helpful to them or mine to you. We all take it for what its worth. Could be gold, could be dung! The receiver is to judge not the giver. The treasure you posses may not be worth anything to someone. Can't assume that everything that comes out of your mouth to be gold.

Quote
By the way, I love lofty words, poetry and beautiful symmetry in thought made visible through the artistic construction of ideas held in sentences, chapters and verses.

That's fine and dandy but be responsible for the things you say.
You have given no explanation as to why you think Jesus is a neutral observer or whoever this observer is?. Scripture and verse for that statement would be helpful.
Rev 22:11 and Mathew 5:39 are verses you can't use, neither implies that Jesus is neutral.

Also I assume you think Jesus is this person because you quote verses that were inspired from Christ to John.

Hope to hear some clarification soon
Antaiwan






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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
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"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

JohnMichael

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2011, 11:42:46 AM »

What I see here is carnality playing the game of "I'm right and you're wrong, and I'm going to show you, bless God!"

That is directed at all who are heaving around heated words and accusations.

Using Scripture to boost one's ego is a big no-no - far worse than the neutral observer analogy. "Who is guilty of the greater sin?"

I'm not siding with anyone - it just seems that there are those who have become a little too opinionated for their own good. Me thinks they doth protest too much. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and realize that we are all on the same mission. Don't kill each other over the minute details.

"Every man worketh out his own salvation" - God works with everyone on an individual basis.

Also, remember James 1:19-20, the use of angry words will accomplish nothing righteous.

(WNT)
Jas 1:19  You know this, my dearly-loved brethren. But let every one be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to be angry.
Jas 1:20  For a man's anger does not lead to action which God regards as righteous.

In Him,
John
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GaryK

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2011, 12:18:04 PM »

Hello,

I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?

Sometimes I will have thoughts about harming others. I know a lot of people have this problem.

It is difficult making the thoughts go away. Sometimes when I have thoughts, I get anxious and try not to dwell on them, leading me to think about them more.

Where and why do people have these thoughts?

I was considering... "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).

Some insight would be appreciated...


Quote
I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?


Echoing.

ANSWER:  "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).

It's as full and simple an explanation as any found and it appears you trust those words, as we all do.

Quote
But there are some people who get really upset, even suicidal about certain thoughts. If they all come from within the heart, why would someone be upset about it?


The answer from scripture above explains it for you, for me, for all of us here, and for others who have been given from God the faith and trust in scripture.  For others, perhaps, they don't know these words that "from within the heart.........-"      Regardless, even though we know these words and have been given the knowledge of their truth, sometimes, it doesn't make it any easier to not be upset about some of my thoughts, so there's really no difference between 'them' and 'us'............unless one is past the point of getting upset about -bad thoughts-........and I'd be more concerned if that were true than anything else. 

Even with inflation that doesn't make for 1 cent worth, but it yours anyway.

gk
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mharrell08

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2011, 12:25:02 PM »

John,

It's not simply about who's right and who's wrong. It's asking someone to explain their comments. We should be allowed to do that in a discussion board.

Too many times, we use mumbo-jumbo talk in describing spiritual things. But Paul commands that we use sound speech, sound doctrine. How can we claim to be credible witnesses to the Truth when no one can understand us and we belittle anyone who asks us to explain our words? Would any of us given Ray the time of day if he talked in mumbo-jumbo but then belittled anyone who didn't understand? He has thousands of emails where he takes time to explain himself...I think we can do that for our own comments as well from time to time. That's all.

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2011, 12:30:58 PM »



Being in the world not OF the world might help give a little more light ~ :)...

Contending with assumptions, false understanding and slander isn't edifying.

Arc

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onelovedread

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2011, 02:04:45 PM »

John you sure sound as if you have taken a side even though you try to conceal it.
One of your scriptures does resonate: "But let every one be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to be angry."
Seems to me that many sometimes want to spout out their side to show how much they think they know, without necessarily thinking about the purpose of edification of the brethren.
So many times someone asks a question and by half way through the thread the subject has been hijacked.
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GaryK

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2011, 04:50:12 PM »

Hello,

I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?

Some insight would be appreciated...



This is probably one of those times that I should think in terms of 'measure twice, cut once', or in this case think twice and keep silent.    But my
A-B-C mind keeps dwelling on the question.     So here goes:

From a 'biblical perspective'??

If there is no free-will, only cause and effect, then would not circumstances play the greatest role from a biblical perspective?   If that's true then the cause and effect would/could be traced to.........

An example:   Ray says 'suicide' isn't a self-determined decision.

Now before any of you start jumping my case, well, just remember, I'm a real rose petal flower kind of guy, heart on my sleeve.   Go easy.     ;D

gk
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2011, 05:24:25 PM »

To be  “neutral” means unbiased, non aligned or not taking sides.
 
To be an “observer” means to witness or notice.
 
To “notice” means observe, discern, detect or be aware of.
 
To be a neutral observer means to be an unbiased, non aligned, not taking sides witness.

Keeping the bond of peace works for me.

Arc
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2011, 05:27:54 PM »



Hi gk

Sorry for leap frogging over your question...maybe someone will come along and give you something worthwhile...~ :)

Arc
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mharrell08

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2011, 06:02:42 PM »

To be  “neutral” means unbiased, non aligned or not taking sides.
 
To be an “observer” means to witness or notice.
 
To “notice” means observe, discern, detect or be aware of.
 
To be a neutral observer means to be an unbiased, non aligned, not taking sides witness.


As multiple members have asked, where in the scriptures does it describe Jesus in this way? Or anyone else?
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2011, 07:22:04 PM »

Hi GK and Ian.  Ray's 'Guilty of All' study is full of good teaching on the subject.  Had the circumstances/causes been different, you could have been a Jim Jones clone, and I could have been another 'Pol Pot'.  We are what we are by the will of God.  We're His workmanship AND He's not finished with us yet.  What our thoughts 'do' is let US know the state of our hearts.  God is not surprised.  It's not an excuse to remain in sin, but it's a huge truth that ALL have sinned.  It's another huge truth that God created us this way.  It's another huge truth that we are PRE-DESTINED to good works. 

We've ALL been subjected to vanity...and not willingly.  This goes back to Ian's original questions.  Evil thoughts spring up from a heart that has them.  They aren't just floating around at random.  From there it's all about 'response'.  For me, that response had to begin with honesty.  That is my perspective.  That had to be followed up with Truth.  That is God's perspective.  I know an astounding amount about me.  I'm still learning about God--and the lion's share of THAT learning is BECAUSE He's made me who and what I am. 

Thank GOD He's not done molding this clay.             
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

seaofglass

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2011, 07:35:42 PM »

 1 Pet 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour

This is the dark forced passed on thru Eve to the all the generation till now. This is the man of sin roaring inside to come out.  It comes out in all forms from our darkened hearts, especially resentment and unrighteous judgements, the hidden secret judgements that ails man.

Rom 12:2  And be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

We must be about renewing the mind and praying without ceasing.  Talking the talk is easy walking it is not so easy.  There are generational curses also that cause bad thoughts.  Watching the thoughts in meditation and just observing it BUT not engaging them, just watching them as a video and then letting them go.  Forcus away "Be still and know" that God is God.

Peace and BLessings
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2011, 08:01:18 PM »

If we were 'good' and just 'thoughts' were evil, that would be fine advise.  But we're not good, and our thoughts prove this.

But maybe I should just speak for myself.  
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 08:13:51 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2011, 10:43:03 PM »


Hi Seaofglass,

Quote
1 Pet 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour

This is the dark forced passed on thru Eve to the all the generation till now. This is the man of sin roaring inside to come out.  It comes out in all forms from our darkened hearts, especially resentment and unrighteous judgements, the hidden secret judgements that ails man.


Satan/devil is a spirit being and not the beast within us. We do have a beast/man of sin inside to deal with and that is our fleshly carnal human nature. But Satan is something else all together. Here is a email that explains this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1707.0.html ---------------------------

So then you really do believe that the "carnal mind" of all humanity will be chained for a thousand years (Rev. 20:2)? and that Paul turned over the carnal mind to be destroyed of the carnal mind (I Cor. 5:5)? What  I would like you to share with me your Scriptural answer to these two Scriptures?  Your theory that "Satan is the carnal mind" does not quite fit all Scriptures, does it?


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11711.0.html ---------------------------

In Job here where it states that Satan presented ‘himself’ to God, couldn’t that be exactly what Ray teaches, a higher spiritual meaning, a spiritual reality couched in a physical setting.

COMMENT:  NO, and that it why I included it as part of the Scriptures which show that Satan is NOT just our human carnal mind.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {Satan: Heb. the adversary} {among: Heb. in the midst of}  7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.  8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? {considered: Heb. set thy heart on}  9  Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?  10  Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? Job1.6-10

Did the Lord and Satan really talk using human words with a human voice in some physical far away place?

COMMENT:  It really doesn't say, does it?  Did they speak in Archaic English or ancient Hebrew?  It doesn't say, does it?

Does Scripture here literally mean Satan was physically walking to and fro in the earth?
(Notice it says IN the earth?) People are made from the dust of the earth. The carnal mind is in the earth (people).

COMMENT:  Satan is "spirit," so why do you suggest that if he walks, he is "physically walking?"
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Quote
There are generational curses also that cause bad thoughts.  Watching the thoughts in meditation and just observing it BUT not engaging them, just watching them as a video and then letting them go. 


Here is a email on general curses.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3013.0.html ---------

This is all superstitious nonsense. You are not under any generational curses, or back luck or any such thing.
     

    "There is therefore NOW [at this time] NO CONDEEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh [the threat of generalizational curses and such fleshly nonsense], but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1).
     

    Heb 4:16--" Let us therefore come BOLDLY unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. "

    God be with you,

    Ray
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2011, 05:39:58 AM »



Marques

You have been answered three times.

My words have been easy to understand, not said with vanity to decieve, beguile or entice.

You might caution against appearing as 1Ti 6:4  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings ~ :)

Arc
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DougE6

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2011, 11:11:04 AM »

In the spirit of telling a personal story, akin to Arc telling her of her neat experience with Jack, when I was a teenager and maybe a little while longer I used to be tormented by blasphemous swearing intrusive thoughts, that I hated and didn't want, and troubled me greatly.  I was a "good' Baptist boy and to have God Da-- and all kind of things popping into my mind, even worse things involving the f word and such in regards to God and Jesus, it was upsetting.  But it went completely away. I have no compulsons or intrusive thoughts like that at all, anymore. None.

I do not know if it was a carnal mind thing rebelling or testing, or a spiritual force.  But it is at teh core, fear based.  So when I could laugh at them, that when they had NO POWER over me at all, that it completely went away.  When you realize that intusive thoughts are DEAD to you, and you are dead to them that you give them no mind, that you could care less about them because they are not you, THEY GO AWAY.  Your subconscious only torments you if it can.  If it has no effect, it stops tormenting you. Fighting them actively only encourages them. its like anything in the subconscious realm.  It is only when your fear is dead to you, when you have outgrown the anxiety, does the need to test the fear go away.  When those intusive thoughts no longer bother you at all, or cause you to give them any heed, they will disappear.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2011, 01:10:54 PM »

Doug,  you have presented insight in the wonder of reckoning oneself dead, and, there is so much to die to! ~

The Scriptures say we are to judge ourselves.

1Co 4:3  But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

This explains the way that Paul judges himself, as I understand it, not by the standards opinions or view points of MAN, but by the understanding, knowledge and experience Paul has of GOD.

God IS author and finisher OF Faith.

The expounded teachings that expose the myth of Free Will, show that we do not have any control of who we are, where we are or how we are. THAT we are, is God's department. Sure we are accountable, but that is not the point right now. The point is, we have no control over our thoughts or over tomorrow or even over the now.

When human thoughts arise that are offensive, obnoxious or sinful, then, in harmony to and with the teaching of Free Will being a Myth, I have had the occasional experience that comes in the joy of experiencing that God IS in control. The experience is one of being dead as you express Doug, to the thought or the temptation to yield to the provocation to act out the thought or worse to become the thought or be deceived into worshiping what I think. This is, for me, maybe not for everyone else, is explained by Ray in his expounding the fact that King Nebuchadnezzar. Dan 4:30  The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY power, and for the honour of MY majesty?

Nebuchadnezzar BELIEVED his own thought!

Being mindful of God in regard to our thoughts and drawing near to God, reminds me of this beautiful Scripture.

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
 
That is not covertly or maliciously aimed at you or anyone Doug. Just a loving description of the Scripture that puts into our view, or consciousness if you like, the thought that it is possible to draw nigh to God...What a beautiful truth of single not double mindedness. God surely is One.

This experience in knowing God controls all, makes thoughts seem dead and self, reckoned dead also which is a GIFT not an acquisition nor a merit nor available if you follow a law or to do list. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html "How hard is it to be saved, shows God is One and He is the One that saves. God is the giver of all gifts! Yet it is a very amazing experience that for me has been all too brief and all too far between!

There is no fa-it accompli nor are there any fully born again’s or complete Jesus Christ’s in the line up of homo sapiens, yet God can give us to receive the gift to experience that glimmer and a brief flash of the  good deposit given through the Holy Spirit dwelling within.

It is a most wonderful experience to feel and EXPERIENCE that God is in charge of me and of all. My thoughts, wrong ones and beautiful ones, given to recognition of Him, not as God is evil if I think off the mark, but that God is PERFECT, kills all ulterior thoughts and makes them benign and not in self aggrandizement for beautiful thoughts or lofty ideas, but as in...All IS of God.. and everything else is beside the point.

For me it is one thing to academically believe a thing and quite another to experience it!.  The conclusive experience of accepting and EXPERIENCING that God is in control...goes beyond words and to try to say anything about it can spark off suspicion, doubts and fear.

So here is the foundation, in harmony to and with the teaching of Free Will being a Myth, it would stand to reason that our thoughts, IF we believe and accept what Ray teaches, then our thoughts are not something in which we have control or will power.

I believe we identify with our thoughts, our job, our home, our possessions OR we identify with God, as Gods own, not our own property, but Gods. That's what I mean Doug and I think I know what you mean too, if I may be so bold as to say so! ~ 

Arc
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DougE6

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Re: Intrusive thoughts...
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2011, 03:31:24 PM »


Ahem..excuse me John, but I happen to love quantum physics. I would say that the beauty of the female form in one realm is as fascinating as the paradoxes and powers of quantum physics in the other! yes, both women and quantum physics are paradoxes  :) :D
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