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[jeetkunejimi]

Hi guys,
             I've been trying to put in to context recently this scripture below,

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
King James Version (KJV)

 18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
 19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
 20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
 21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

My brother Keith who is a Christian but who is in Christendom as a Pentecostal believes it shows without doubt that God is or can be a cruel God and therefore that He (God) would also create a hell for sinners to go to forever, because if He commands Israel to kill  their wayward children then so can God kill all his wayward children. I've looked on Ray's site but as of yet nothing has jumped out on me.

Any help that anyone can give me scripturally to put this verse into context properly with the NT would be a great blessing for me and hopefully for my brother Keith.I'm still looking myself.

God bless,

Sincerely, Jimi.



 






 

 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Exo 21:24  Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25  Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Exo 21:26  And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
Exo 21:27  And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
Exo 21:28  If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.

The above is not any more literal than the Mat 5:29  And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

The Scripture in Exodus and Matthew, is not meant to be taken physically, nor will any context found to make any Scripture literal, make it so either. ~ 

Arc

[JohnMichael]

Your brother has the doctrine of Hell as an idol of his heart, so he's going to use any passage of the bible where people died to show that God is the monster he really believes Him to be.

1Co 13:4  Love is patient and kind. Love knows neither envy nor jealousy. Love is not forward and self-assertive, nor boastful and conceited.
1Co 13:5  She does not behave unbecomingly, nor seek to aggrandize herself, nor blaze out in passionate anger, nor brood over wrongs.
1Co 13:6  She finds no pleasure in injustice done to others, but joyfully sides with the truth.
1Co 13:7  She knows how to be silent. She is full of trust, full of hope, full of patient endurance.
1Co 13:8  Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be done away with; if there are languages, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be brought to an end.
1Co 13:9  For our knowledge is imperfect, and so is our prophesying;
1Co 13:10  but when the perfect state of things is come, all that is imperfect will be brought to an end.
1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I talked like a child, felt like a child, reasoned like a child: when I became a man, I put from me childish ways.
1Co 13:12  For the present we see things as if in a mirror, and are puzzled; but then we shall see them face to face. For the present the knowledge I gain is imperfect; but then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
1Co 13:13  And so there remain Faith, Hope, Love--these three; and of these the greatest is Love.

1Jn 4:8  He who is destitute of love has never had any knowledge of God; because God is love.

If your brother tries to refute that, it may be best to stop talking with him about the Truth because his heart is not yet ready (at this time).

I hope this helps.

In Him,
John

[Kat]

Hi Jimi,

One thing that strikes me is in Deuteronomy, that was in a time long ago that maybe we don't even understand completely how a person was given a death sentence. Maybe it was not as simple as just a couple of verses have it. But regardless that Scripture does state that a they should put that person to death. We know that those that die in this life will live again in the resurrection of the dead and will have life in the next age, surely to be a better life. But to say "therefore that He (God) would also create a hell for sinners to go to forever" a place of endless and constant torture and torment and suffering can in any way compare to putting someone to death is the height of blasphemy. There's no comparison at all in those two things there.

In a conversation I would not want to listen to someone blasphemy God, whether they knew/believed the truth or not. At the very least I would just have to say you believe in a different God than I.

Isa 5:20  Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
v. 21  Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!

Mat 6:22  `The lamp of the body is the eye, if, therefore, thine eye may be perfect, all thy body shall be enlightened,
v. 23  but if thine eye may be evil, all thy body shall be dark; if, therefore, the light that is in thee is darkness--the darkness, how great!
v. 24  `None is able to serve two lords, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to the one, and despise the other; ye are not able to serve God and Mammon.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[mharrell08]

Any help that anyone can give me scripturally to put this verse into context properly with the NT would be a great blessing for me and hopefully for my brother Keith.I'm still looking myself.

If your brother is willing, print out 2 copies of Ray's paper 'Hell is a Christian Hoax' (http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html) and go over it together.

[Joel]

Hi Jimi
Everyone dies sooner or later, how does that make The Just Judge of all the earth cruel if he says we must die now or later?
It's a good thing we are living in the age of Grace, I could be laying under a pile of stones right now.

Joel

[River]

 It seems to me it is the blind leading the blind. A rebel son gets a death sentence but many people who band together and believe in "an eye for an eye" get to walk away with murdering a man who did not murder? Is this not the same carnal minded nonsense that allows the idea of endless torture in a fire?

[Dave in Tenn]

I have to ask this.  

The onus is on the father and mother to do the "laying hold on him" and the "bringing him out" and the "saying unto the elders"--I wonder how many parents actually DID this.  And if they did, what did they think about it?  "Whew...problem solved...let's party."?  Did they think they were being especially holy?

Just wondering.  

[Dave in Tenn]

I don't really have a question about the law or even the penalty.  I'm at peace with what I believe about the purpose.

But the 'commandment' here is to the parents of the rebellious and stubborn son.  My question still stands. 

If I'm splitting hairs, I'll shut up.  I've been splitting my own hairs for three+ years now and don't really know any better way at this point.

[River]

History and the news have this question covered pretty well. There is no shortage of parents who would do something like this. Having the backing of "God" on their side or the "law" I think only makes it double worse.
I would have to totally disagree with John From Kentucky on this subject. The idea that if you can kill someone and they will live again one day with a better attitude is way out. Sounds a lot like the fear of hell will set you straight idea. Or how about convert to our religion or be killed. I often notice how those who hate crime or rage at a injustice become worse than the persons they are upset with. Anyone who becomes a "problem" be it from sickness or what have you are always targeted because those who are blessed are to fearful or lazy to deal with the subject fully. It is so much easier to rid ourselfs of the "trash" and be on our way I suppose. But when people assume they are better or right or holy, well who can stop them?

[River]

 Hi..I just came from looking at another post and there seems to be some tension and then I figured I better let everyone know that I am not looking for a fight with my responses. So to Dave In Tenn and John from Kentucky, we are good right?  Thanks for letting me share. Blessed are the peacemakers right? 

[DougE6]

Our perspective is much different than God's.  God sees the end from the beginning, God can kill and make alive again. God can do things we cannot. He is the Lord. He can take everything from Job, even His kids, and then restore Job, to make a point, a point that billions of people will see and respect for millenia later.  It is the small minded and cruel themselves, that cannot see beyond these things.  God really isn't too wporried about anyone's temporary opinion of Him.  Their opinions will become properly adjusted in due time!  The point that we all die is well taken. What does it matter if God decided to cut short someones life in the span of billions of years of life to come?  It only freaks out people who have no REAL faith in God, have only this mortal life in view; who have NO real faith in that God can be completely good and just and yet do things that are forbidden to us. God made some very strict rules back then.  John from Kentucky is correct that those rules have meaning and wisdome, as they are in effect, communicating something to us beyond the mere death of transfressors.  The problem is the carnal mind thinks it can sit in judgement of God or it thinks it can assume things about God that are in keeping with the assumptions of the wicked hearts behind the carnal minds.  People hearts that are wicked enough to be OK with eternal punishment, how can it be any surprise that they can have a take on these laws that justify their wicked belief?  Whereas to the pure, to those who both love righteousness and know Gods true heart, can see past these in the light of eternity, trivial judgements, and not think God is cruel and a torture monger.

[Kat]

Hi River,

The idea that if you can kill someone and they will live again one day with a better attitude is way out. Sounds a lot like the fear of hell will set you straight idea. Or how about convert to our religion or be killed. I often notice how those who hate crime or rage at a injustice become worse than the persons they are upset with.

I agree with Doug on this, and I just like to point to a few Scriptures concerning it.

Deu 4:14  And Jehovah commanded me (Moses) at that time to teach you statutes and judgments so that you might do them in the land where you go over to possess it.

Deu 12:1  These are the statutes and judgments which you shall be careful to do in the land which Jehovah, the God of your fathers gives you to possess it, all the days that you live upon the earth.

Deu 26:16  Today Jehovah your God has commanded you to do these statutes and judgments. You therefore shall keep and do them with all your heart and with all your soul.

It says Jehovah through Moses is where these laws came from. It says "God commanded" this as a statutes before and after it was given, so it is kind of bookended in there as from God. All life is given to live on this earth for the time that God sees fit.

Job 1:21  And he said, I came naked out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return there. Jehovah gave, and Jehovah has taken away. Blessed be the name of Jehovah.

God is doing a work at this time according to His perfect wisdom, and really whatever lifetime that we have on this earth at this time is so minuscule compared to what is to come.

James 4:14  Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

That we can not clearly understand or phantom exactly how and why God is working things out the way He does is no surprise...

Isa 55:8  For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says Jehovah.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[JohnMichael]

Just to concur with what Doug and Kat have said:

Mankind sees the physical as constant and the spiritual as temporary - from OUR perspective because we live and breathe in the flesh (the physical). However, the opposite is actually the Truth. The spiritual is the constant, and the physical is only temporary.

(WNT)
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life.

Mar 13:31  Earth and sky will pass away, but it is certain that my words will not pass away.

Jas 4:14  when, all the while, you do not even know what will happen to-morrow. For what is the nature of your life? Why, it is but a mist, which appears for a short time and then is seen no more.

Hope this helps.

In Him,
John

[onelovedread]

jeetkunejimi 
 
Being killed and being tortured without dying are 2 distinctly different things - apples to oranges.

[Dave in Tenn]

You're preaching to the choir with me.  I guess I just need to read from Duetronomy on and see if there is a recorded instance where this law was carried out.  An esword search did no good because there are too many instances of any keywords to wade through.  If no ex-JW or WWCOG person can tell me, I guess I'm stuck.

I learned in Sunday School that the law was intended to make for a better society.  Granted, I was Southern Baptist and we didn't get too deep into much besides the Ten Commandments and tithing.    While it may still be true that the law was given to make for a better society, I've learned since that the law was given for another purpose, and that the Law is Spiritual.  

I also know that they lied to me in sunday school a few times.  I just want to check things out for myself.

Sorry, Jimi, for hijacking your thread.  I'm done here.

[Joel]

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 is God's remedy for someone that has broken one of the ten commandments.

Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that THY DAYS MAY BE LONG UPON THE LAND which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Under the Old Covenant God was strict about putting EVIL away from his people, and this is an example of instructions for this to be done. Did a father or mother ever do this to their son? If they had faith in God in the Church in the wilderness, I think it could have happened.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death: but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died WITHOUT MERCY under two or three witnesses:

In the future the eternal God will execute judgement on those that died while doing evil, and wickedness, but I don't see where any will be tormented for eternity, only punished in the lake of fire by the eternal God. Ray has done a lot of teaching on this subject.
Sometimes it is more cruel for someone to live on doing evil, than for them to die and have more heaps of serious offences to their charge at a latter date. "Laws are for the lawless"

Joel

[River]

Hi River,

The idea that if you can kill someone and they will live again one day with a better attitude is way out. Sounds a lot like the fear of hell will set you straight idea. Or how about convert to our religion or be killed. I often notice how those who hate crime or rage at a injustice become worse than the persons they are upset with.

I agree with Doug on this, and I just like to point to a few Scriptures concerning it.

Deu 4:14  And Jehovah commanded me (Moses) at that time to teach you statutes and judgments so that you might do them in the land where you go over to possess it.

Deu 12:1  These are the statutes and judgments which you shall be careful to do in the land which Jehovah, the God of your fathers gives you to possess it, all the days that you live upon the earth.

Deu 26:16  Today Jehovah your God has commanded you to do these statutes and judgments. You therefore shall keep and do them with all your heart and with all your soul.

It says Jehovah through Moses is where these laws came from. It says "God commanded" this as a statutes before and after it was given, so it is kind of bookended in there as from God. All life is given to live on this earth for the time that God sees fit.

Job 1:21  And he said, I came naked out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return there. Jehovah gave, and Jehovah has taken away. Blessed be the name of Jehovah.

God is doing a work at this time according to His perfect wisdom, and really whatever lifetime that we have on this earth at this time is so minuscule compared to what is to come.

James 4:14  Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

That we can not clearly understand or phantom exactly how and why God is working things out the way He does is no surprise...

Isa 55:8  For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor your ways My ways, says Jehovah.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hey Kat,
 
Dougs response may be trying to address my response but I'm afraid he has missed my point. Nor am I refuting what scriptures you posted. I am like Dave pointed out trying to address the "spiritual" applications. Everyone here should know that the scriptures are often used as a defense to back up carnal ideas. I'm sorry it was missed. I have no guilt testing the scriptures, I just wish I had done it sooner because I know all the scriptures I used to allow carnal ill towards others. The Deuteronomy scripture is no different. Saying it was God's Law does not mean a person is going to act properly with it. We have countless Christians who have killed, tortured etc. all the while using scripture to back them up. Hope that clears some of the confusion up.

[octoberose]

I don't believe that these scriptures in Exodus 21 are not to be taken literally. There were severe punishments for transgressions of the law so I don't know why one would equate these verses with Jesus' use of throwing your hand, eye, etc into the fire when he was talking about the heart. At the time Exodus was written, they needed to be taught to not OVER punish, but only an eye for an eye, not an eye for a Life, for example. It was justice for that time for that people. Leviticus 24:19, 20 says "If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him' fracture for fracture, eye for eye,  tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured. "
 Are these harsh? Well, yes, that's the point. Jewish people understood that sin needed to be atoned for, sacrificed for and punished. But now we have Jesus, who IS our atonement, our sacrifice, and endured our punishment. Do we stone our children to death? No, because Jesus bore that death with his own body. It is the most amazing story that will ever be told!

[River]

 I would hope we wouldn't stone our kids at all. Not sure how many people really don't kill kids just because they think Jesus "bore that death with his own body." I really would hope that wouldn't be the only reason a person could come up with not to kill a kid. Even those who are unbelievers would be against stoning kids.

 9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.