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Liar and murderer

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dave:
I understand the adversary as the principal spirit that God created to carry out the evil that man, THROUGH
Jesus Christ must and will overcome.     Like what we call, "a necessary evil."
But that's just me.

JohnMichael:

--- Quote from: DougE6 on August 18, 2011, 09:25:39 PM ---
--- Quote ---Actually, God took the lives of Job's children Satan was just a stooge who God used to bring the evil on Job
--- End quote ---


If Satan was just a "stooge" then why did God create him in the first place? A stooge? How about a waster to destroy.

Why have a go between?  Why did God make a go between, if He wanted people to make statements such as you just said in the box above?


--- Quote ---"...the LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD
--- End quote ---

This is a wonderful statement and I agree with wholeheartedly. I like that one. I really don't like yours. I am really sorry to say that, but I think there is an important distinction here. Just because God is responsible, He made sure He was not the one directly doing it, and He made the the waster to destroy.  God may have goaded Satan, certainly, and set the parameters, yes, but Satan did it. I think there is some serious understanding God wanted us to get that God put distance between the committing of evil and Himself, that your direct statements really erase, John.

--- End quote ---

Stooge: any underling, assistant, or accomplice

Is Satan an underling to God? Certainly. He is subject to God's Sovereignty. Does he assist God in God's plan? Yes, though he doesn't do it with a desire to do so. He sole desire is to destroy. His actions are perfectly in line with God's purpose/will.

God uses, and has no problem using, evil in order to teach mankind humility.

Ecc 1:13  And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail [Hebrew: Evil affair, business] hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised [Hebrew: Humbled, Browbeaten] therewith.
Ecc 3:10  I have seen the travail [Hebrew: affair, business], which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised [Hebrew: humbled, browbeaten] in it.

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these

Jer 13:16  Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.

Nah 1:8  But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

God does not "need" Satan to do anything, even evil. God is more than capable, and readily able, to place evil in a person's life for His purpose. God's purpose includes Satan. Will we question why God does the things He does when we only understand in part?

For example, who struck Ananias and Sapphira dead?

You both are saying the same thing, just differently. :)

In Him,
John

DougE6:

Satan is going to spend an age or more in the Lake of Fire. He will be giving an extensive account. He will be brought to repentance. I think we really have to be careful with our language here. I really do. It makes it sound like Satan has no explaining to do at all, when one continually makes statements that directly say that God did it. No Satan did it, voluntarily, and God did not put a gun to his head, to make it happen. There are real deep things He in how this all works that we do not fully understand, but just like when I do a wrong, my conscience is wounded, and I feel utterly miserable. When I sin, God did not do it. I did it. Considering the circumstances, it may have been a LOCK that I would do what I did. Granted. But I still sinned voluntarily. I don't like the implication that God is a sinner. I know that is not what John is meaning to say.

Of course GOD uses evil. ANd YET He never sins in doing so. And when Satan uses evil he is committing a grave sin. It matters not that God is steering all things according to the counsel of His will, and that all that happens, must happen. There are two categories, sinners, and God. I do not like language which tends to confuse the two. I think that is the root of my objections. That is why the Bible describes God in these matters as the Ultimate Causer, but names the perpetrators of these sins according to those which actually COMMITTED the sins. Satan sinned when attacking Job. he sinned to attempt to show God up, he sinned by hurting Job without cause. Even though God brought deep spiritual lessons out of that transaction, and God DID pick the fight, it was Satan who voluntarily and with malice and evil intent went after Job. God had NO malice towards Job whatsoever. That is why God does not do these things directly, (except when in judgement, like Ananias and Sapphira, and then there is NO malice either, ever, in God's heart.  God uses judgement for the ultimate good and restoration of the judged).  The malice in Satans heart brought up the things that satan asked God if he could do to Job. God gave Him permission to do so, already knowing what Satan would do, and ask. But because God's motives are so MUCH different than Satans, I will confine my speech to labeling the direct agent as the doer, and God as the Causer.  I will be very circumspect about saying GOD did this, except when my audience is very clear that God is not a sinner, knows EXACTLY that I mean CAUSER and STEERER, nor has He sinned, in doing this, whatever it may be.  God leaves the commission of things that result in sins to others, not Himself.

JohnMichael:

--- Quote ---I will be very circumspect about saying GOD did this, except when my audience is very clear that God is not a sinner, knows EXACTLY that I mean CAUSER and STEERER, nor has He sinned, in doing this, whatever it may be.  God leaves the commission of things that result in sins to others, not Himself.
--- End quote ---

No problem, Doug. None of us would dare implicate or insinuate that God is a sinner. I think a misunderstanding took place here. :) We are referring to God being the cause. When John said God has killed every person who ever lived, he is right. Every person, before being born, was appointed a day to die by God. God provides the causes. I wouldn't dream (by the grace of God) of claiming God was a sinner - that's blasphemy in my book.

John

stanstillwhite:
Wow, some great stuff being said here!  I just wanted to point out to Samsun that Adam did die the very day that he sinned in God's perception. If we remember that one day to the Lord is as a thousand years....  God has let no man live a full day in His eyes. The record...969.

Blessing

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