> General Discussions
Luke 23:34 - Ray's comments added, last post
DougE6:
I found this email from Ray directly concerning some of my concerns, please bear with me one more time. I really really like what Ray says here in this email about the sovereignity of God and our lusts, evil things we do. I just want everyone to be very circumspect about saying directly things like "When you see a child rapist God the Father did that" in regards to Gods total sovereignity.....
Dear Richard:
Many hundreds of readers have tried to put words into my mouth over the years. None has been successful to date. You may not realize it, but you either totally misunderstand much of the teaching of Scriptures, or you too are putting words in my mouth that I never put there. I will make a few comments to your email....
I Have no free will. God controls all causes. God made me the who I am, a sinning machine.
COMMENT: I don't ever recall saying that "God has made everyone of us what we ARE." Where have I ever said that? I have said many times that "we are sinning machines," and I have said many times, that God "made us spiritually weak," but I don't recall ever saying that God "MADE child molesters?"
Whatever I do is God working in me to do.
COMMENT: No, I never said that either, but I have quoted Phil. 2:13 extensively: "For it is God which workes IN YOU [works WHAT in you?] both to will and to do [the RAPING OF LITTLE CHILDREN? NO...] of HIS G-O-O-D PLEASURE." Is it God's "GOOD pleasure" that evil men rape little children? Yes God created all that is in the Universe in which are found the things that CAUSE men to rape little children, but it is NOT, I SAID NOT, "God working IN THEM" to rape little children. It is THEIR OWN LUSTS that cause them to do the evils that they do.
How many thousands of times must I say: "We need to pay close attentions TO THE WORDS" before someone will believe me?
Whatever I will is God working in me to will.
COMMENT: NO, and we already covered this.
I can't earn sainthood, God chose his saints before the disruption of the world (and I gather that this was NOT a result of him looking forward in time to see if They would "pass the test" before he chose them). Saints are not appointed to indignation. Everyone else is. My question to you, as stupid as it may be,
IS THERE ANYTHING I CAN DO TO ESCAPE INDIGNATION?
OR AM I TO UNDERSTAND THAT GOD WILL OR WILL NOT PUT ME THROUGH INDIGNATION BASED SOLEY ON HIS DECISION BEFORE THE DISRUPTION AND REGARDLESS OF ANY EFFORT I PERCEIVE THAT I MAKE?
COMMENT: You clearly do not understand [1] God's Sovereignty and [2] Man's lack of sovereignty (free will).
When you say, "I can do..." are you suggesting that if I say, "Yes, you can do this," then by my admonition to you and your acceptance of that admonition, you can then indeed DO SOMETHING THAT GOD HAD NOT PLANNED ON? See what I mean? You cannot have "free will," AND a Sovereign God--it is a contradiction.
I don't know whether you personally will go through God's wrath or indignation. All I know is that God has not appointed His ELECT TO WRATH (I Thes. 5:9). I am not the judge as to whether you personally (whom I do not know at all) are one of the Elect or will be one of the Elect, etc. Jesus knows those who are His (II Tim. 2:19)
WILL HE MAKE SURE I GO THROUGH INDIGNATION BY SETTING UP CAUSES AGAINST MY BEING RESCUED AND WORK IN ME TO WILL AND TO DO THOSE THINGS THAT WILL BRING UPON ME HIS WRATH?
COMMENT: If God has determined that you will go through any form of His wrath, then it will happen. I don't know what else I can say. God often frustrates the "plans of men." The Pharisees THOUGHT that they found eonian life in the Scriptures, but Jesus said they didn't. They wanted it, but they did not find it. As to why that is so, there are many answers, and they are all in according with God's intentions in working out HIS plan and purpose. I have no idea where you are at with your walk with God. I don't know if you are a lot converted or not the least bit converted. But rest assurred that God will do to you and for you exactly what He deems best. Don't presume to think God is OUT TO GET YOU.
God be with you,
Ray
"work out your own salvation with much fear and trembling"
This question has been staring me in the face for a while now, and it is a little scary.
Thank you,
Richard
aktikt:
Hey Doug,
Your last post was beautiful, too.
--- Quote ---
John from K
I love your last post.
Doug
--- End quote ---
Oh, how good and how pleasant it is for brothers to dwell together in unity.
It does my heart good when an argument is resolved this way! It's so rare.
Usually, arguments don't produce anything but ill will.
Everyone keep on keepin' on. Life is tough.
Josh
Kat:
Here are a few excerpts from the Bible study Saved By Grace Thru Faith' to add to the discussion.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.msg43145.html --------------------------------------
That’s what grace is, divine - divinity - God - Godly influence on your heart. But now we’ve taken grace out of the realm of a noun, into a verb, it’s doing something you see. Of course I said that a long time ago.
Jesus didn’t need grace for any pardon of anything. But did He need the influence of God, divine influence on His heart? Absolutely. That’s why He could live the way He did, accomplish what He did, never give in to wrong motives and temptations and all that. He had this divine influence of God on His heart ALL THE TIME.
So then we read Paul says, “But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace (divine influence upon the heart) which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I….” (1 Cor 15:10)
“Yet not I” what? He said I labored, you know what that means, work. I’ve ‘worked’ harder than all of them, yet it wasn’t I that works... right? Notice it wasn’t I that was doing the work, but the grace of God which was with me. The grace of God... what?
These things are all understood, notice it, I am what I am by His divine influence upon my heart, which He bestowed upon me and it was not in vain. But I labored more abundantly than they all labored, yet not I labored, but the grace of God labored. That’s what it’s saying, can you see that? So what is the grace of God doing in Paul’s heart? It LABORS, it works.
v
So faith is the channel and faith is believing. So you just have to believe, that’s something in your mind, that’s simple enough. I accept your free gift to save me and I believe it, that’s it, good, all done. No, not quite. Because we read, “The sum of Your word is truth…” (Psalms 119: 160(CLV). You have to put it all together.
In Luke 6: 46 Christ says, “Why call you Me Lord, Lord.” Listen, that’s faith. If you call Him Lord, it means you believe He’s Lord, right, that’s faith. So He says, why do you pretend to have faith in Me, by calling Me Lord, but you don’t do what I say? See it’s a false faith, “you do not do what I say.” It is a contradiction to say, you have faith and you don’t do anything. Notice the rest of this verse in Ephesians.
Eph 2:8 for by grace (a gratuitous gift - divine influence upon the heart) are you saved through faith (believing and doing God‘s will); and that (faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
v. 9 not of (our) works, less any man should boast (you boast when you do your own works).
v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship (His achievement - His works), created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
Do you get that? Where it says “not of works,” but “for good works.” Wait a minute is that a contradiction? No, “not of (our) works” but “for (His) good works.” There are works, they’re just not ours. But we are of His workmanship. Workmanship has the word ‘work.’ The Concordant translates it ‘achievement.’ When you want to achieve something it takes work. Who’s doing the work here? God is doing the work. What is that work? Divine influence upon the heart and then you do things.
Eph 2:10 “… created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God has afore ordained that we should walk in them.”
So there are works.
Rom 8:28 “And we know that God WORKS all (things), together for the good…”
v
We are saved by grace. It’s free, gratuitous gift from God, but it does something. It teaches - it chastens - it educates - it is divine influence upon the seat of our emotions - thinking - plans - purpose - goals - aspirations and everything else. It divinely influences that heart, you can’t help it, it does it.
v
Grace is a gift, you don’t have it. Now this is something you can’t conjure up, it’s a gift of God. It’s always the grace OF God, it comes from God, there is nothing you can do. You say, ‘well what about the faith we’ve got, that comes from us.’ No no no, it says in Eph 2: 8-10 “… faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELF, it is the gift of God;”
The faith it’s a gift, the grace it’s all a gift, everything is a gift. It’s all a gift of God. It’s all faith, it’s all grace, they are all one thing. Grace causes you to live rightly. What does faith do? If you believe God, you do what He says. It is virtually the same thing.
Now what is the goal? To make you like Christ! What is Christ? He is in the image of God. So what does God want from us? He wants us to be in His image. Physical image? No, spiritual image. It is a spiritual thing that God is doing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Kat:
I had the chance to talk to Ray (email) recently and he does desire to help with questions, so I sent him some of the pertinent comments from this discussion. Here is his answer.
Hi Kathy: As I am in a great deal of pain in a half dozen places in my body, I am not up to try and answer these arguments in depth, however, let me make a few COMMENTS.....
--- Quote ---"We are all guilty of crucifying Jesus because of our sins." I do not agree with that statement. Christian ministers and priests also make that statement, and I have found them all to be false teachers.
The Beast within would just love to think it could kill the Son of God by its free will actions.
God the Father crucified and killed Jesus. Only the Great God had the power to kill the Son of God.
--- End quote ---
RAY'S COMMENT: I hesitate to use such statements as suggesting that the Great God "KILLED His Son." Look closer at the Scripture you quoted and you will see that it says, "the RULERS of this world...CRUCIFIED the Lord of glory" (1Cor. 2:08). And if that would not have been possible except that Jesus said Joh 10:17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again".
And so it was Jesus HIMSELF Who laid down His life. And again
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
--- Quote ---you seem to think that you have no part in the outcome of how God is working through you. Is God repenting for you of your sins or do you have some type of accountability in what choices you make? All of us here know that the Father is in total control of His creation[no free will],but does that also mean that you have no part in His plan and purpose concerning your own life?
--- End quote ---
RAY'S COMMENT: Accountability really doesn't have much to do with free will. Certainly we have a part to play in our lives. If we didn't I guess God really could have made everyone robots. What I have stressed so many times is that although we are not inherently good, nonetheless, WE LEARN. We LEARN to do good where in the past we did bad. And when we learn to do good, then there really is good present in our lives.
--- Quote ---is your only reason for believing that your beast is dead, is that really really believe you simply are 100% along for the ride, and now that you are, because you are willing to attribute 100% of every one of your thoughts and actions to God the Father directly, so NOW you claim your beast is dead? Just believing that (extreme IMHO) kills the beast? Based on that alone? Is that what the doctrine of No free will really means to you?
Now the following questions are rhetorical to everyone. What about crucifying your flesh? Have you crucified your flesh of its carnal passions and desires? To me, a CLEAN thought life and CLEAN heart and godly and Christ honoring actions would be more an indicator that your beast is dead. If I am doing Christs works, and thinking Christs thoughts, then I believe my beast is dead. Would God really say that your beast is dead if your heart is full of lust, adulteries, lies, coveting, and all the other millions of sins? Are you really are you are putting all others before yourself, even loving your enemies, then I would say your beast is dead. Just because you are at peace in your own soul because you believe that all your actions and thoughts are completely the direct acts of God, have always been the acts of the Father, and always will be,
--- End quote ---
RAY'S COMMENT: All of our actions as assuredly NOT "the direct acts of God." Example: Does God "directly tempt us to sin?" Answer: "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He ANY MAN." (James 1:13).
--- Quote ---does NOT mean you beast is dead. So what if you believe that. You could be a terrible person and be completely content in all your terrible actions because God is the one doing them, not you. We will wait for the judgement of Christ to reveal the secrets of mens hearts. We will see if God values your "beast killing" PREEMINENT OVER ARCHING belief that everyone of your impulses, thoughts, actions, and desires are the direct act of God or if God values your acts of Love towards your fellow man, your obedience to Christ, your holiness of putting away the carnal nature and serving others. And we will see which weighs more on the scales, what you believe is the beast killing belief and LOVE, LOVING all people and doing all you can in LOVE with Christ.
I see no qualifier IN ANY SCRIPTURE WHATSOEVER that we need to wait till we are personally convinced God is motivating us. If you are not motivated, then REPENT your heart is wrong and you better seek God just like those scriptures tell you to do, and just like those scriptures attest, God will reward those who earnestly seek Him. Not ONE of us is PRIVY to the workings of God behind the scenes. So stop acting like you are, just because you see through a glass darkly and now think you are so wise; and can see some of His workings; start obeying all those scriptures!
And I think it is time for someone to be zealous for the other side of the coin to balance out WITH the plain plumb true fact that God wants you-all- to seek Him with your whole heart. No matter what. And no doctrine should/will discourage you in any way from doing this. You have to have both points of view in mind always, the absolute, and the relative. We know the absolute by what actually happens, but we have to give our sweat blood and tears as Jesus did. YES WE DO>
--- End quote ---
RAY'S COMMENT: There are some good points made here..........
--- Quote ---None of us are saying that good works are not needed. All good comes from God. The nub of the matter is who gets credit for the good works?
If we think, in our heart, that the good works come from us, that repentance comes from us, that our knowledge comes from us, that our faith comes from us, then we are God in the temple of our heart. The Beast lives in our heart.
On the other hand, when we are baptized with the Spirit, when Jesus lives within us, then the Beast has been killed, and we do those things that Jesus does. We think like Jesus and we do the works of Jesus. Through this Spirit we are subject to the Kingdom of God. God is sovereign and rules within us.
Therefore, since it is through the influence of the Spirit of Jesus (the same Spirit as His Father) that we do good works, then God gets all the credit for the good works that we do. God is sovereign in all things. All the credit, all the glory goes to God.
--- End quote ---
RAYS' COMMENT: Actually a great deal of credit does go to those who have good works:
2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and PROFITABLE UNTO MEN.
Tabitha was raised from the dead by Peter. Do we not think that maybe she was granted this incredible miralce because she was 'FULL of good works?"
Act 9:36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and alms deeds which she did.
We will in fact be reward for OUR good works even though they are inspired from God.
God be with you all,
Ray
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[*] Previous page
Go to full version